Frimley Rose Garden – Cheryl Lattey

Jim Newbigin: I am at the Hastings Public Library; it is 11th August [2020] and talking this morning is Cheryl Lattey, and she’s talking on roses.

Joyce Barry: Welcome, everyone, thank you for coming along. Well the rose … in mythology, poetry, Shakespeare, literature, products and perfumes, nothing symbolises beauty [more] than the rose, and no one can be our local advocate more than Cheryl Lattey. I have great delight in introducing you to Cheryl Lattey … long history in flowers. Cheryl follows in the footsteps of some formidable men that [who] established the Hastings Rose Society in 1959. They immediately lobbied and established the Frimley Rose Garden as a civic rose garden, and of course that property has recently been bequested by the Williams family for the wellbeing of the Hastings district. So from that came Cheryl in this day and age – strong, strong advocate of roses; been president for ever, [chuckles] and I have great delight in her taking the story forward. So welcome, Cheryl; over to you.

Cheryl Lattey: Thank you, Joyce. [Applause] Firstly, may I do a big shout-out to all our forebears who brought their horticultural knowledge to New Zealand from England and places afar. It is through these dedicated people from the past that we now owe our present; and it is important to know where we have come from, to know where we are going. And at this stage, who knows where that is.

I’ll start from the beginning, and it’s so lovely to see so many friendly faces. [Chuckle] But I went through all our records over the weekend and had a very dusty time, but quite informative time. So I’ll begin with our society. In 1947 there were five district societies in New Zealand under the rules and guidelines of the National Horticultural Society. These were Auckland, Waikato, Hutt Valley and East Harbour, Wellington and Christchurch. Our story probably begins with a chap named George Howell, and I don’t know how many people have heard of him, but he was a keen plantsman, and was passionate about roses. I found this in the archives of George. He pedalled his bike around Hastings delivering annuals; they would’ve been horticultural annuals in those days promoting roses. Thanks to his enthusiasm, in 1948 the Hawke’s Bay Rose Society was formed. The society was prolific and its first progeny was the Hastings Branch, which became the Hastings Rose Society. I know some our members’ll be learning a lot now too, won’t they? George was made a life-member in 1955.

The first national convention was held in 1952 in Hastings, with a registration of one pound [£1], which covered everything except accommodation, which was of course at your own cost. But a pound – I mean, on today’s standard probably very equivalent. In 1953 it joined the Hastings Horticultural, and Sweet Pea and Iris Society, to hold their rose show. This was in the Apple and Pear [?empty?] cool store, which was great for blooms, but not so good for the people. It was cold, and it had poor lighting.

Many well-known Hastings people were associated with the society at [in] those days; names like Wilson, Simmonds, Christie, Dr Francis Palmer and Chambers. In fact in those days it was a Who’s Who of Hawke’s Bay. In 1954, due to the fire in the Williams’ old homestead, Frimley Park was bequeathed to the Hastings District Council, and it was made mention by Parks and Reserves that a portion may be available for the rose garden. In 1956 Rose Sunday was created by Greater Hastings. Rose buttonholes and cups of tea; we still do that today, and I hope it will continue this year. In 1959 the New Zealand Rose Society became an incorporated society. Wilson’s Nurseries raised a seedling rose and named it ‘Greater Hastings’, which they sold for fifteen shillings [15/-] each, with seven and six [7/6d] going to the Hastings Rose Society at that time. In 1962 Hastings hosted its second convention and became an incorporated society in line with the National, and it cost ten pound seventy [seven shillings] [£10/7/-] to become an incorporated society. They held the convention in the Apple and Pear Board cool store again, and from all accounts, with three rose shows in progress – so there would’ve been miniatures, there would’ve been heritage, there would’ve been hybrid teas – it was total chaos, and from there new rules and regulations were drawn as to holding national rose shows.

Vases for the prizes were in short supply, so four hundred Beaufort shells – and I don’t know if you know what they are, but they’re the army shells from the [inaudible due to coughing] … lovely brass vases. So we bought four hundred of those at a cost of two shillings [2/-] each. They were very heavy, and in 1979 these were replaced with plastic tubing vases. To set up a Rose Society with a rose show, which we did many times, it was back-breaking to carry those four hundred Beaufort shells.

In 1963 the committee met with the Hastings District Council regarding Frimley Rose Garden. And in late, later in 1964 Central Hawke’s Bay Society was born, which took away a quarter of our members. Also in that year the annual Christmas party was held with some unnamed person, leaning heavily on a supper table, causing a collapse and the loss of forty cups and saucers. It was later known as the ‘crashing party’. [Chuckles] In 1965 a Frimley Rose Garden bank account was opened with a hundred pound[s] [£100] from the Hastings Rose Society, and three hundred pound[s] [£300] from Wilson’s Nurseries. [Voices in background] Mr Wilson became a life member in 1965 and in that same year 2090 rose bushes were planted at Frimley. 1966 Mr Wilson donated a pergola to the entrance of the garden to celebrate fifty years in business; and that’s the second pergola as you walk up the long walkway. Rose Sunday was also revived by Greater Hastings. A donation of the roses ‘Preset’ and ‘Greater Hastings’, bred by Wilson’s Nurseries here, were sent to Montreal for their expo in 1967, and during the following years rose experts from around the world visited Hastings; namely Sam McCready, Harry Wheatcroft and Mr Le Bryce. We also had David Austin come for the World Convention many years ago.

Over the years local dignitaries donated cups and trophies, names such as Masterton at Wattie’s, boxes of which I have under my house, some dating back to 1904; so there’d’ve been horticultural cups there as well. I have tried to re-house them, but to no avail. [Chuckle] I suggested that the last person’s name on each cup should go back so that they could clean them, but they don’t want them either. [Chuckles] I’ve approached a lot of people; when I went to Wairoa a few years back with an embroidery group, their museum up there has got rooms dedicated to all the societies that have closed, with all the cups and everything. It was so lovely, and I thought, ‘Wow – how neat to have your past preserved.’ We have got so much history that’s just going nowhere. So I have boxes of these cups under my house if you know what I can do with them. I can’t melt them down ; I have too much sentimental value with a lot of them, and I feel for the people from the past that have given them to us. We held our last convention in 1984 with over three hundred members and it was deemed a great success.

Now personally, I first joined in 1978, as my mother-in-law thought that as I had two small children it would be good to have an outside interest. [Background voices continues] We first met in the old Druids Hall in King Street, if you remember that; then the rugby rooms in Alexander Street; and when the Hastings District Council built the cultural centre, local non-profit organisations were encouraged to have their meetings there, with a special room and lock-up space provided. Unfortunately, some years later that same Hastings District Council, in their wisdom, encouraged us to leave [chuckles] so that it could become an arts centre, which we were very sad about because it was just perfect. We moved to the St John Ambulance hall in Southland Road [coughing] where we held rose shows and meetings until the present day. We held yearly rose shows, which were well-attended by the public; and one year one of our exhibitors arrived to stage his blooms, and after staging the miniature section he went looking for his other buckets of blooms and thought, ‘Oh gosh – I must’ve left them in my wife’s car’, and she’d taken off somewhere. So he thought, ‘Oh, blow.’ And the floral art ladies thought, ‘Oh, wow! Isn’t this neat that someone’s donated all these beautiful roses for us do our floral art.’ So they were happy; [laughter] so that’s where they ended up. [Laughter and comments] So it was a great show, very florific.

I have four daughters, and each of them have been involved over the years in either rose shows or fund raisers, to the point where they probably won’t ever want to join the Rose Society, though I hope some of my knowledge of roses has rubbed off on them. I must tell you a story though – when we were moving from a house to where we are now, thirty-five years ago, things were a bit tight; we had four small children and not a lot of money, and wondered how we were going to pay all the mortgages and that. And so we had a blackboard at home, and we used to [write] on the blackboard what everyone did … ballet, Guides, Brownies, music, sport. And I said you know, “Is there anything here that we can cut down on, because this’s going to be a lot of toing and froing for Mum?” And they thought I could give up the Rose Society. [Laughter] So that’s what children are like.

Have any of you seen the TV series ‘Pecking Order’? The chook show; it’s fantastic. Well, there are a lot of similarities, as wherever there are people competing, there are characters, and we have certainly had a lot of characters over those years. Every rose certainly has its thorn, and we’ve had a few prickly ones. [Chuckles] Over the years I’ve shown roses at rose shows and competed with the best of them, and I became a national judge. It takes seven years to complete; you must stay at each level until you have proved your worth and then set, so you can go up to the next level. I took over the treasurer’s job in 1986 from Ray Thomas, who was a real character and a great asset to Hastings – he did so much for the Rose Society – and been secretary, president, committee member over the past forty-two years. I remember the days when we could get twenty-four percent interest rate; wouldn’t that be nice? [Chuckles]

Our main source of fundraising was by supplying fertiliser which was copied from the English Tonks Fertiliser recipe, which we adjusted for Hawke’s Bay conditions. Ray Thomas and Dave Harrington bagged this up for years and years and years, and supplied a number of our members and also a lot of Hastings people. In the last twenty years it has been through the annual sale of rose calendars, which I’m sure you’ve all seen, and we’ve netted from $1,000 to $1,500 dollars a year selling these lovely rose calendars. So that has been our main source of fundraising.

I feel very privileged to have lived through an era of horticultural knowledge of roses, camellias and magnolias, the likes [of which] we will never see again because supply and demand has created a supermarket shopping for the gardener, and the true plantsmen and breeders have faded into oblivion. Now the internet has all the answers and human contact is obsolete. We were very fortunate with John Purdie and Dene Thomas and the Arthurs – there are so many people that you will all know that had so much knowledge, and the camellias and the roses that we could all buy. I mean when the latest rose came out, we were all there waiting to get it. Now it’s supply and demand; if someone likes one rose, that’s what you’ll get. It’s very hard to get the old ones. There are still a couple in the South Island that are selling them, but … anyhow, we’re very lucky with what we’ve got here now.

Now, Frimley Rose Garden; a dream, or was it? I have given you a brief account of our society and now I move on to my passion. As you were previously told, the fire in the old Williams’ homestead in 1954 started many years – in fact, nine years of rumour or promise, and then reality. In 1963 the Rose Society Committee met again with council and with their plans and ideas. They had written to rose gardens all over the world; the most comprehensive ones that came back to us were from Copenhagen. However, the Frimley Rose Garden is based on Kew Gardens in England. You will notice that over the years we’ve lost a couple of the outside rings; it was bigger than that, but due to the trees shading the grounds and root coming through they’ve cut it back; and I don’t begrudge them, because I think it’s quite a good rose garden now that’s plenty big enough for us all, and as long as they look after that, we’ll be fine. They signed an agreement with the council which in hindsight was a very hard bargain. They had £400 in funds, and the agreement stated that they would have to supply half the roses in the first year, and the remaining in the next two years, plus replace any that proved unsatisfactory or that the council didn’t approve of, for the next five years. This proved a problem, as twenty varieties were needed for each bed. Local nurserymen were approached for quantities and price, and the town and local organisations were canvassed to make the first-year deadline. In the first year they planted two thousand and ninety rose bushes, with the remainder in the following years. Luckily only a few had to be replaced in the next five years. In round figures, four thousand roses were planted, with over three hundred cultivars. That same year Mr Wilson donated a pergola to celebrate fifty years in business; that is that pergola which I told you about, the one into the actual rose bed. Trial beds were also set up to test the roses which would do the best in the Hawke’s Bay conditions; so each year we bought three of ten new varieties that were being launched and we put them in trial beds to see which ones did well in Hawke’s Bay, because not all roses do well in all sorts of situations. And so that was a good telling point to say, “Well that one does really well – I think we’ll put it in another bed.” But that … ooh, that went on for about twenty years, and it became hard for the council to look after. And we didn’t know if it was a true indication whether the rose wasn’t doing well or whether it just hadn’t been looked after, so that was stopped. The Hastings Rose Soc[iety] … I told you … purchased thirty each year, and while we weren’t doing the trial beds we continued to buy thirty new rose bushes each year, so we bought them all a new bed of thirty roses each year – ones that were being proved in the society.

There was a serious disagreement with the council and committee over care and attention of Frimley, and it made the headlines with the public and quite a bit of ill feeling took place. However, Frimley benefitted, with the Hastings District Council agreeing [coughing] to maintenance. Over the years we have had quite a few issues with the gardens and the maintenance team. They’re only as good as the person that’s [who’s] in charge at the time, and if you don’t like roses, like my husband, [chuckles] you know, he would not worry. But you know, you have a sprayer going in to Roundup to do the weeds and that … just has been a bit casual, so we have lost a lot beds over the years, but we have had them replaced.

So at the moment we have a really good relationship with the council, and Rachel Stewart has been amazing. And you know, I feel we’re talking now; for a long time there was not communication between us – not myself and Rachel – the council and society. This is now contracted out, the maintenance, by the council and we have little to say in the matter, but they do ring me from time to time and ask me about different varieties, which I’m very pleased about. And we have, as you noted, every year they’re putting in pergolas to lift the height of the rose garden. Every year we meet and do a petanque with the society, and we do dead heading; but this is only a drop in the bucket to what is actually required of that magnitude.

So in 2008, with numbers dropping and $45,000 in the bank, the committee and members decided it was time to do something tangible with our funds, as if we folded as an incorporated society it would go wherever the incorporated society deemed it; we would have no say in it. We became a charitable status, so it did change a bit. We approached the Hastings District Council and were given a favourable hearing to build a pavilion, and we had to submit plans. At that point the council would agree to go halves with the cost, and that it wouldn’t be able to take place until the new drainage was being done in Frimley for the housing subdivisions that were going on. Brian Musson drew up plans and we submitted them to council. They canvassed the neighbours, and unfortunately there was opposition. We needed to adjust the height, and most didn’t want it in their back yard. They thought it was going to be a monstrosity, and that they wouldn’t want it there. So that took a little bit of adjusting. When plans were adjusted, the council said we would have to wait; and wait we did [cough] … we waited for years. The initial costing that we did was for $90,000. Finally in 2010, the council said that they would be digging up Frimley Rose Gardens for drainage, and we would have to get moving if we wanted to do this pavilion; but unfortunately they hadn’t budgeted for us that year and there would be no funding.

So, as we were now a charitable trust, I wrote to twenty charitable organisations in the Hawke’s Bay area for assistance. Unfortunately we only received a small donation from Wairoa, and that was from a garden group who had received $3,000 when the Hastings Horticultural Society went into recess and folded up. And I think by all accounts there were about ninety organisations in the Hawke’s Bay area that got $3,000. So they sent that $3,000 back to us; but most of them advised us, because it was on council property they weren’t prepared to assist us, and it should have been a council problem. The decision then had to be made – do we go ahead with it or not?

Luckily my husband and I had a construction business and lots of contacts who helped; and decided it was now or never – we’d build it and worry about the cost later. Over the waiting period the cost had increased, and we bit the bullet and began. Hastings District Council did supply some funding, but not the half we were expecting. The final cost was $110,000. Four of our members bought seats for inside the pavilion so that people could sit down there. Finally in 2011 we had built the most brilliant pavilion for the people of Hastings to enjoy and smell the roses. Brian Musson gained a Regional Design Award for the pavilion, and we were awarded a Landmarks Architectural Award in 2013. The surrounding neighbours are also proud, and use it to their benefit, [chuckles] as do many, many, many people in Hawke’s Bay, with weddings and gatherings.

In 2018, we decided as a group to disaffiliate from the national body as it was taking all our subs as fees. It was $30 to belong to our society; the national body was taking $25, and we didn’t feel we were getting anything back from them. Their comment was, “Sell more calendars”. [Chuckles] So we decided that the time had come that we would disaffiliate from them. We had accumulated another $8,000 through calendar sales, and decided to buy four more seats along the walkway to the rose garden for people to rest. On a footnote to that, I was really disappointed – I was called to the Hastings District Council; one of the guys wanted to talk to me about roses a few weeks back, and I went there and the first thing I saw was graffiti on our new seats. I was so angry. He said, “Don’t worry, I’ve just called it in.” I said, “Called it in where? I want to put it in the paper! I want to do this …” He said, “No, no. When they find someone who’s associated with that tag, they take photos, and there’s …” [Sigh] So disappointing when you, you know, try and do it for the community.

I still belong to the national body so that we can know what’s going on, but we are now just a rose group of about thirty, forty people just enjoying life; but it hasn’t been that enjoyable because we haven’t been able to meet through covid. But we’re still very much in touch, and there’s a few of my friends here. And … any questions? I am done … how quick was that? Pretty good. [Chuckles] I could go on and on because it is a passion of mine; but I just feel so proud that we as a society have left something for the community to enjoy forever, because it’s going nowhere; there is so much steel and concrete in there, it is going nowhere. [Chuckles]

Question: Cheryl, I’ve got to ask the first question, what is your favourite rose?

Cheryl: No, you can’t ask me that; everybody asks me what my favourite rose is. My favourite rose is the one that’s flowering at the time. But ‘My Mum’ is one that just flowers and flowers and flowers and flowers, as you know and I’ve told you many times. [Chuckle]

Question: Just wondering where it is exactly?

Cheryl: Wow! [Chuckles] D’you know where Frimley School is? You know where Girls’ High is and Lindisfarne? Before those shops and before the pool; there’s a walkway through there.

Joyce: It’s fantastic, please go, even in winter. I was there yesterday, and there were six groups of people walking round your rose garden in winter. The maintenance was fantastic; your new seating was all showing up beautifully, and I can’t say enough how grateful we all should be to the Lattey family for the pavilion – she deserves a clap for that.

[Applause]

Question: I was interested when you were talking about trial grounds in Hawke’s Bay, because I’m familiar with the national trial grounds.

Cheryl: Where, Palmerston North? Yes – on a much bigger scale they do quite a lot, and they’ve got quite a few breeders down there that look after them. But they look after them themselves, and they take it quite seriously about pointing them, and which ones will survive. And yeah, it’s good, but you’ve got to have the manpower to do that; and they do it on a national body basis. They’re funded by national to help do that too, I think.

Questioner: Just thought you were right about Hawke’s Bay conditions being …

Cheryl: Totally different, totally different. When I met David Austin down in Christchurch for Rose World, he could not believe how his roses were growing here. In New Zealand they’re twice the size they grow in England, and he was just blown away by the size of them. So it is totally different. And you know, we’re very hot and dry so we tend to get rust; if it’s cool nights we get a lot of rust, mildew, and we don’t get a lot of rain, so they’re quite different to different areas. Roses – the most thing they need is water, and deep root water, not overhead water, just get it in at the roots and give them a bucket a week, at least, right Jo?

Jo: In the summer.

Cheryl: In the summer. Yeah, in the summer. Yeah, in the winter you’re pretty right. In summer’s when they’re doing most of their growth. But look honestly, I could talk to you for ages about cultivation and pruning and everything, but I just thought the history is what you wanted. And also, we had rose annuals that we used to get each year from the national body, and they’re very [in]formative for anyone that wants to look at them. I’m going to give you this packet of cards for you to thank people.

Joyce: I want you to say something about your pruning programme, because who does the demonstrations now?

Cheryl: No-one does the demonstrations now, because [chuckles] I used to do the demonstrations.

Comment: Because of Covid?

Cheryl: Yes, covid. Covid, that’s right. I have pruned so many people’s gardens in Hawke’s Bay, and all around pruning time people call me and say, “Will you come and prune my roses”, you know, or “tell me what to do.” I tell them what to do, and next year they say, “Will you come and show me what to do?” [Chuckles] We used to do public demonstrations in our members’ gardens, and we did afternoon tea and we looked after them; and then we used to go to the Frimley Gardens and do them there. And how many would we’ve done over the years, Heather? Many, many, many. And it used to be the yearly thing that we did that, and it was to promote the love of roses in the hearts of the people, but it was also to get new members. And people were only there really to learn to prune and then you wouldn’t see them, ‘cause you can get so much information now on the internet.

Question: Are you able to bring in new stock from England for the breeding or do you just use New Zealand stock?

Cheryl: We don’t really bring anything in here, but I’m sure the breeders do, although I would say there’s a bit of a …

Questioner: Quarantine.

Cheryl: Yeah, there’s quarantine, but I don’t think they do it as much as they used to, because we can’t get a lot of the English roses that they have here. And the breeders we’ve got that are here are doing what is required for them. You know, there’s no real market for them to go and find anything really special, because gardeners today want small gardens. They want a couple of roses that aren’t going to give them much trouble; they don’t want to prune them or anything, so you’ll know that ‘Iceberg’ is everywhere. That was 1953 but, you know, ‘Iceberg’ … it’s a very uninteresting rose really. [Laughter] It flowers, and flowers, and flowers, but you can’t really pick it for floral art or anything like that. But it is …

Comment: Beautiful.

…it is beautiful when it flowers, it is. But, you know, that’s what people are putting in the garden – lots of ‘Iceberg’, lots of shrubs, or lots of low maintenance things that are not requiring any effort.

Question: Just further to that, do you have any suggestions for rust?

Cheryl: Well, look you can … [chuckle] … it depends if you want to go organic, and do your Neem oil; the thing about roses now – if you’ve got the watering, the mulching and the feeding right, you don’t get anything. It’s like feeding a child chocolate all the time – you’ll get rotten teeth and you’ll get poor growth. If you give them the right food and the right environment, they grow really healthy. So with rust, there’s not a lot you can do because some are more prone to it than others, other than spray with a rust … What do you use, Heather, for rust?

Heather: I don’t spray.

Cheryl: No, she doesn’t spray, so Neem oil and Neem pellets is a very organic way of dealing with all sorts of garden things now. Just sprinkle it around; the roses will take them up with moisture, and hopefully the vapours they give off will stop a lot of the … But unfortunately some roses are more prone to rust than others, and they are just … get rid of them, really. It’s not worth it, and that’s why Frimley is really good to go and see which ones are doing well there, and buy accordingly. And they will be buying them now from breeders that they can get supply for the local market. They won’t have ones that are hard to obtain.

Question: Do you get involved with the Rose of Tralee competition?

Cheryl: No. [Laughter]

Question: I’ve no interest in roses at all.

Cheryl: Oh, none?

Questioner: None at all.

Cheryl: What are you doing here?

Questioner: I said to myself, “Goodness gracious me, what am I doing here?” What I have learned is, your enthusiasm’s so profound; it’s influenced everybody here, including me.

Cheryl: Oh!

Questioner: [Chuckles] It’s not just your enthusiasm, it’s your knowledge, and we can all learn at any one time. Lot of grey heads here like myself and we’re open to learn the whole time; but it’s entirely in this case, from me to you. Thank you very much. [Laughter and applause]

Cheryl: Oh, lovely … [Laughter and applause] Joyce, what I was going to say is that you said that people like to know the history of the rose. Well we really start from the heritage; heritage ones are prior to 1900 normally. But the hybrid teas and that – this is a lovely book to read, ‘For the Love of the Rose’. It’s a love story between two rose-breeding families, the Meillands of Lyons, and Paolinos of Antibes. It’s old. This was given to my mother-in-law by Hugh in 1966. It’s a lovely read, and they bred the rose ‘Peace’ after the war, and that really started the hybrid tea’s and the modern-day rose, as we know it.

Joyce: So ‘Peace’ was the first ..?

Cheryl: Well, I don’t know if it was the first, but it was the catalyst that started from that … from that rose and that breeding of those two families, they bred and bred and bred. I mean not people … in Antibes they bred roses. [Chuckles] But we’re just so lucky for all of that English knowledge and French knowledge that came through. Heritage roses is another story again – you could listen to that for days. The information for that is incredible and we’re just so lucky to have the rose; it’s just such a beautiful thing, isn’t it?

Joyce: There’s a wonderful ex-dairy farming family who have put all their money into the new whisky distillery in Cardrona Valley, and they have put in thousands of the special rose [in] for perfume, for the future.

Cheryl: Probably whisky. [Laughter]

Joyce: The perfume making is so specialised?

Cheryl: Oh, absolutely. But on that note too, we also grow Tree Peonies. Do you know Tony and Jo Wilson? They were the original peony people that we got a lot of our peonies from. Tony has bred thousands of these peonies from the seedlings, and they normally sell them at their church every Sunday, but because of covid and no church, he had all these seedlings. So they’re now going up to the Guthrie Smith Arboretum, and they’re planting a whole bank in tree peonies.

Joyce: We’ll hold Cheryl back here for any of you who want their specific questions; I’m sure she’ll answer them. But on behalf of Landmarks, Cheryl, thank you so much. It’s been lovely to have someone outside our usual talks. I would like a round of applause for Cheryl, please. [Applause] Thank you so much for taking the talk so seriously too, it’s great.