Jackson, Graeme Campbell (Campbell) Interview (County Club)

This is Robyn Warren interviewing Mr Campbell Jackson and his second wife Mrs Dale Jackson. The date is Tuesday 23^rd April 2013. Today we’ll be talking about the Hastings County Club. Thank you for coming in Campbell and Dale – can you tell us when and where you were born?

When I was born?

Mmm.

1935.

Yes – what date?

Dale: 20^th of August.

Campbell:  20^th – well my birthday is about that, yeah – is the 20^th of the 8^th 1935.

Right – and you were born?

I was born in Havelock – at least, in Hastings, yeah.

In the hospital or ..?

No I think it was – they had a hospital sort of situation for babies and things like that.

Oh yes, yes.

Mmm. And I’m not so sure it wasn’t Royston, but – don’t know. Yeah, but anyhow, it’s on it in my …

Birth certificate?

Isn’t it – it’s up in Hastings – it’s … see I’ve actually got that too, yeah.

Oh good – yes – yes. [Speaking together]

Should have that I s’pose – ’cause I got that when my mother was – round there, yeah.

Lovely – all right – now can you tell us about your mum and your dad? Your mother and father’s names?

Oh yes, yeah. Well my mother and father’s names are … and you start with my mother …

Yes, all right.

Edith Jean – well she was an Orr.

Yes. O-R-R.

O double R. And then of course my father got married in 1929. My mother married my father Harry Jackson.

[Speaking together] What was his name? Yes – Harry?

Russell.

Or was he Henry – or Harry?

I think he was meant to be Henry Russell Jackson.

Right, okay. And then you had some brothers and sisters?

Yes.

What were their names?

Dale: You only had one sister.

Campbell:  I’ve only got myself.

Dale: Judith Rose.

Campbell:  Judith Rose … yeah – Jackson.

And she’s married now?

Dale: She passed away two – three years ago. [Speaking together]

Campbell:  She passed away and I’ve lost those you know – all my parents are gone.

Well yes, Campbell, you’re the older generation now aren’t you, really … the patriach?

Yeah – that’s right. [Speaking together]

Yes, that’s right. Well, tell us about your own children then.

Yeah well, my own children, well, I think I did that before didn’t I?

Yes.

And Paul is …

Dale: Paul is the eldest, and then there’s Graeme, and Philippa is the youngest.

Campbell:  Yep.

[Speaking together]

Dale: They’re all ….

Campbell:  Oh Richard, no – hang on – Paul – he was Richard Paul Jackson.

But you call him Paul – I see.

Yeah, that’s Paul, he’s the oldest one in my side of the family, yes. And then there’s Graeme …

Dale: Russell.

Campbell:  Graeme Russell Jackson.

Dale:  And Philippa?

Campbell:  And then I’ve got my daughter, is Philippa …

Dale: Philippa Gwendolyn. [Speaking together]

Campbell:  Philippa Gwendolyn, and she was Jackson too.

Right.

That’s a big mouthful in that lot – but she was called Pip.

Oh, was she?

But you’ve gotta have Philippa – not many Philippas.

No, no. I do know some Philippas.

And she was Gwen …

Dale: Gwendolyn …

Campbell:  Gwendolyn, yeah.

Dale: … after her grandmother. But the Russell that comes in – Sir Andrew Russell was a cousin of Campbell’s father – his mother was a Russell.

Campbell:  I see, oh.

Dale: So they are related to the Russell family.

So they were a farming family too, weren’t they?

Campbell:  They were all farmers, yes.

And so you were brought up on a farm?

Brought up on a farm, yeah.

Whereabouts was that farm?

That was on Mangatahi.

Yes.

And – that’s all OK, so …

What did you have on the farm? Sheep?

Sheep and cattle.

Cattle too?

That’s right.

How many acres?

Eight hundred acres. A lot of it was flat up on the tops – we had a lot of gullies and things.

And so you had to take your share of the farm duties?

Yes – yeah. That’s right.

And so that’s where you learnt the farming trade, to carry it on.

Well, yes, because it goes back to Frederick Arthur Jackson, because he drew a marble way back in 1906. And that’s when – he had a marble, and that’s what they were doing with all those stations and what-have-you – there was sixty thousand acres and that was in – what would that be in?  That’d be round about – oh … it was all …

Dale: Richard John Seddon, wasn’t it?  He organised the ballot of all the properties. [Speaking together]

Campbell:  It was Richard John Seddon – it was Olrig Station.

Dale: Olrig Station was split up. [Speaking together]

Campbell:  Olrig Station was the first one up. Mark Hager [?] had about the same thing too in the way back, and then there’s Fred Jackson. He had a team of horses – he’s always had a whole lot of horses – and he went right up to Kereru. And he had the Mangatahi School and he had – up on our road we had Bill Jowsey [?] and then the McMillan one at the end, and they were all the originals …

Oh, really?

… on that same road.

And so those are all the boys you went to school with?

Yeah – that went to Mangatahi School. It was my sister you see – she was older and she always had a horse you see, ’cause … and I was four and a half years younger.

And how did you get ..?

And of course here’s me hanging on the back of the horse.

Oh.

Yeah, and she’d just gallop – full … probably with no saddle or anything.

You had to learn to hold on fast, yes.

And Gracie Reynolds – my mother was a bit worried about how Judith used to, you know … I was hanging on for grim death.

She would be.

And anyhow this Gracie Reynolds said “you’re going to kill that girl”. But anyhow,  we lived.

You survived, yes.  And so you went through to the end of Mangatahi School, and where would you have gone to your secondary school?

[Speaking together]

Dale: First of all you went to St George’s in Wanganui, which was a prep school.

At what age did you go there?

Campbell:  Well you see in those days, we didn’t go to school until six years – until we were six. But nowadays it’d be five years old, wouldn’t it?

Yes, it is.

And of course – we had all different things came into it because the war was on as well.

Yes.

And we never forgot that – we put the flag up every day out at Mangatahi School – put the flag up.

Really?

And you just had to have it – have it as silence you know?

So it was like a ceremony …

Things were pretty grim then too, you know.

Yes. And do you remember those grim days?

Well yes, I do, well I do … those, yes.

Dale:  You had … the American Forces were having R&R in your district, weren’t they? And Campbell caught up with the son of one of them about sixty years later, from America – he traced Campbell and came out to New Zealand to see them.

Amazing. Wow …

Campbell:  Well, you see I’ve got – there’s another one – there’s two Frederick Arthurs isn’t there? Frederick …

Dale: Frederick came up from Jacksons, he was one of quite a big family down there.

Campbell:  Frederick – it is Frederick – I think they’re Frederick Arthur too.

Dale: Yes – the two FAs.

Campbell:  And he went off to the war in the very early stages, and he was mounted in those days.

Yes – this is the first World War …

… and I don’t think it was – it was the first World War …

Dale: Left New Zealand with his horse and came back with the saddle – they had shot his …

Campbell:  It was something I really enjoyed in my young days of schools and things … Freddy, poor old Fred. And anyhow, he drew a marble in Porangahau. Anyhow, he came home – what he did was – he only had a saddle that was left, because all the horses were shot. Yeah – it was a hell of a war.

Oh, terrible time, yes.

Yeah, and it’s still sort of going on. And he – poor old Fred, you see – he died at sixty-five.

Dale: No, that’s his father’s brother.

Campbell:  Yeah, that’s another generation, yeah.

Your uncle – yes, but your father …

I’m going back – he’s my uncle, yeah.

Yes – so your father was Fred Jackson?

Dale: No, Harry.

Oh, sorry, Harry Jackson, yes …

Dale: And his father was Fred.

Sorry, yes. And so therefore you took over the family farm?

Campbell:  Yes, well no, we had Frederick Arthur. And of course my father went to school at Napier Boys’ High in Napier.

But you didn’t go there?

No, no – most of them all went to war. And Fred too, went to Napier …

Dale: Yes – Campbell went to Wanganui Collegiate after St George’s.

Oh, I see. What age would you have gone to St George’s?

Dale: Probably intermediate, which was the … [speaking together]

Oh, as young as that?

Dale: Yes, it was like an intermediate – very much like Hereworth.

Campbell:  Yes.

Dale: He would have had two years there before you went on to Collegiate.

I see. And then when you came home you would have taken up – well, worked on the family farm, did you?

Campbell:  Yes, well I did and unfortunately my father died in 1972 and he didn’t even reach 70 – and he was 69.

Oh, that’s very young, yes. [Speaking together]

And I’m the only one in my ancestors that goes right back to – with the South Island and over the Otira Gorge, which was one of them – they had Jackson, he was always called Jackson, and that goes back to 1860.

Was it – was that in ..?

Of all those ancestors you see, and so forth, and most of them all died.

Oh, they would have, yes …

‘Cause they worked their butts out, you know.

Yes.

Dale: None of the men lived beyond sixty.

Oh – that would have been a tough life back then.

Dale: But the original – your great-grandfather had the hotel in Jacksons and it was where they changed over the horses on the mail cars …

Yes.

When the stage coaches went through at Jacksons.

Campbell:  So anyhow – I s’pose when I turned seventy, I’m the one that ever has got to all those generations.

That’s amazing.

Fred, and … and all the others, and sisters, and there was Jessie, there was Lily, and all the different ones …

Dale: All their aunts.

Campbell:  And Jeannie, and Fred Jackson and Harry Jackson. I’ve got all those names too, as well.

Yes. You know them all. So do you know if they came from England originally?

Yes, yes.

Dale: No, they came from Scotland.

Campbell:  They came from Scotland, yeah.

And settled in Jacksons?

Yep. In 1860 – and they came out in a sailing ship. Imagine those days.

Amazing.

Jean .. [?] And, gosh, she was on a sailing ship – she was having a baby then, coming over – and it’s an unusual story, but what happened when it got to Dunedin – I think Dunedin was the first …

Dale: They landed in Port Chalmers.

Campbell:  Yeah, so anyhow – and she was ill really, with having a child. Yes. And anyhow – I can imagine, the rolling, or anything in those sailing ships. [Speaking together]

Shocking.

And anyhow, when she came to Hawke’s Bay, she never would go across the sea – ever.

No. The baby lived?

Yeah. The baby – yeah, that’s when the family started.

Dale: She was a Jeannie McGregor – related to Rob Roy, wasn’t it? All goes back. Because we’ve got … [speaking together]

Campbell:  Jeannie McGregor. [Speaking together]

Dale: … a lot of old poetry and that.

Campbell:  Jeannie McGregor.

Yes, yes. Isn’t that a Scottish name? Oh, that’s lovely. Well, shall we just end that portion … that’s fifteen minutes that’s taken.

Campbell:  Is it?

Yes, and if we stop that now and we’ll have a listen to it and then we’ll start again.

The date today is Tuesday 14^th May 2013. This is Robyn Warren interviewing Mr Campbell Jackson and his second wife Mrs Dale Jackson. Today we’ll be talking about the Hastings County Club. Campbell, we’re particularly interested in your involvement in the County Club. Can you tell us when you joined the Club?

Campbell:  1960.

1916? Yes – and what age were you?

I was only about 24.

Oh, 1960 you joined. You were twenty-five, and your father and your grandfather were members too.

Yes, but my grandfather really – I never knew him because he died really – what … in about 1964 or something or other.

I see – yes.

And he went down the steps and you know – his heart didn’t work.

Oh, I see.

So …

But he was a foundation member, your grandfather?

Grandfather, yeah.

Yes, and what was his name?

He was Frederick Arthur Jackson.

And so – he would have been a foundation member?

Yes, well then my father you see – came into it, and he went away to Porangahau, because he didn’t really get on too well with his grandfather, and anyhow he went down with a swag on his back and so forth, and then went to Porangahau. And then after that, within about a year, he fell down the back steps and he died. Then he had to come back to the farm again.

I see.

That’s how it all came about.

And what was your father’s full name?

My father … Henry – well, it’s usually Henry, Henry Russell Jackson.

And so your father was a member at the same time as you were?

Yes. He was still farming for quite a while and [I] was still there when I was sort of kicking in, virtually.

And you were working on his farm at the same time?

Yeah, but I’d left school at Wanganui Collegiate, and … then that would have been 1950.

Yes, because you were born in 1935 …

1951.

Now can you remember who your good friends were from the same time?

Oh yes, all in that district – the Mangatahi district was all really good people.

And a lot of those people from the district …

Oh yes …

… belonged to the County Club?

Well I knew them all, yes. And they all sort of went, usually, into the Club. They all were in that area.

And who were your best friends then?

Well, I’ve got good friends everywhere I s’pose.

Yes.

Right up to Kereru and all over the place, and Maraekakaho …

Ron Ebbett?

Well Ron Ebbett yeah – but he was in a different area – he was in … where the pub is …

Dale: Puketapu.

Campbell:  Puketapu.

Dale: I think Robyn means who were your friends at the Club at the same time as you joined?

Campbell:  Yeah.

Dale: Who joined with you?

Campbell:  That’s right, that’s how that happened – was a good mate of …

And Brett Train too?

Mmmm … Train, yes.

And Ron and Brett – they’re still alive aren’t they?

Yes.

What about Ken Treseder?

Yes, he was there. I might have been just another 2 years and then Ken Treseder came in as well – to the Club. It was only because my father … he said “oh why don’t you … you can join the Club, and you can use the phone, and I can do that or just go and have a beer” and when I had my father there too you see, ’cause he was in Havelock then.

And you were on the farm?

Yeah, I’m on the farm, yeah, so that’s how it is – ’cause I never went generally.

But then after stock days, sale days, you’d go to the Club?

Yes, we always used to go on a Friday.

All the men meeting there together?

Yes – oh yes.

… and sharing their stories?

Oh yes, telling stories.

And do you remember when the servants, or the manservants were there? The manservants … and you talked about the bar manager Dick Burfield?

Oh yeah.

Was he the one that was sleeping on the job?

Oh yes – you got that one.

Oh no, that was Gordon Stewart.

Gordon Stewart, yes.

So Dick Burfield was the manager of the bar …

Yeah.

… and Albert Jensen was the overall manager of the Club?

He was the manager, yeah.

Yes, this is in the early years.

That’s right.

The early years when you were there, and secretary was Gordon Stewart?

Ah, Gordon Stewart, yes, well he wasn’t a popular man, put it that way, but he used to light the fire … and it was all this big nice table … and especially in the winter he had to light a fire and, he had a great big couch and he was sitting there, you know …

Is that in the lounge?

Yes, in the lounge yes.

Where the big fireplace is?

The big fireplace, yes.

Can you tell me what else went on in the lounge? What activities were taking place in the lounge?

Well it was very quiet you know … a lot of them would come in at lunch time and … and … just to read the paper and, you know, it was very low key really.

In the lounge? Or would they go into the reading room?

Ah, yes, there was a very big room, and of course a big fireplace and everything else. ‘Cause there were two fireplaces back together.

And on one of the mantelpieces there was a small round container. Would that have been for raffles, or ballots or … just a – like a hexagonal container, little round one with a handle?

Oh yes.

What would that have been used for?

I don’t know what was that.

Would it have been for raffles or ..?

Oh, well raffles yes, but we had a nice barrel.

A wooden one?

A wooden one.

Yes. That was it, yeah.

Wonder where that one went to?

I think it was in the auction.

Mmm.

I do have a photograph.

I’m pretty sure about that, yeah – I should have that one.

Very attractive.

And I – I used to use that a lot of times …

Did you?

… ’cause I was doing a lot then, round about in the ’80s.

Yes, what did you use it for?

Well I did all the speechings and different things. Then before that we had Jim Sawyers – he was there but he was a dentist down in the South Island and he came out to Hawke’s Bay. He was very good too. By the time I finished – was what I was going to do and then Jim came in again too, so for …

In the lounge they had a lot of big couches, and so you’d – you’d all sit together in groups and just talk, would you?

Yes, yes, just talk, yes.

And then the bar, the big oval … the U-shaped bar, the macrocarpa bar …

Yeah.

… that was in the same room.

Well there was only a very minor one, and of course in the bar there was a cigarette … and it was made of …

Dale: Was it the metal ..?

Campbell:  Yeah, a metal …

Dale: Where you put your a … cigarette butts into.

Campbell:  Yeah – it was like that and it was still there when it was all still right there.

So did lots of people smoke?

Yeah – oh yes, smoke, yeah – in the dishes …

I read about the smoky haze.

Oh, you got that one. I mentioned that one previ.. If the actual tables all were used – there was only three tables – and you’d look through the smoke.

This is in the billiards room?

Jeepers – you couldn’t even breathe!

And you weren’t a smoker?

No, I wasn’t a smoker then, no. Not really. But if I did smoke I smoked a pipe.

Did you?

In my time.

And – can we just hearken back to the reading room – what went on in the reading room?

Well it was very low key – you might only see one person there, yeah. And I was a bit ashamed really, of walking in there, and I really didn’t go in there because of that. Because he would come out with some unusual comments.

Oh, who was that?

And he knew jolly well, me being my age, you know, ’cause they were the gentlemen.

I see …

Very much a gentlemen’s … yep. And by cripes, you had to call them “sir”.

Did you now ? Oh … oh.

By cripes – and it wasn’t until – what?  Well eight or nine, ten years, yeah, until you could actually say … call them a christian name.

You would call your peers by their christian names …

Yes.

… but the older men … had to be called “sir”. [Speaking together]

The older men were “sir”, you know. Sir.

And then the servants – they would have called you all “sir”?

Yeah.

Even you younger men?

Yeah. Even the younger ones, yes. But it wasn’t really late until – they were good fellowship.

Yes.

And they said “oh, no, don’t you call me Bill or Jim …”

Oh, I see.

Well those were the type of people – yeah.

Yes.

It was changed you see – and then the days of the ties.

Yes, tell us about the ties.

Tom mentioned about that.

Yes, tell us again about the ties – how you had to wear a tie when you came in.

Yeah.

Where were the ties kept?

Well the ties were kept in the foyer. Yes, and if you had tea you had to have a tie hanging on a couple of hooks [?] and you had to put a tie on, and put it on in the toilet – to put one on you see.

And a proper jacket too?

No, no you could be with short sleeves or something or other like that, but you just had to have the tie. But most of them probably have sports coats and things in – nowadays, don’t they?

Yes. And so then – if you knocked at the front door, did you – or rang the bell at the front door – was there a bell to ring?

Yeah, there was a bell, yeah.

And so you would wait then for the door to be opened – is that right?

Yeah.

Who would open the door?

Yeah, well I think generally we … that big door, that big swinging door – that’s always there, that one. That was quite a nice foyer there.

Who would open the door? Who would come to the door to open it for you?

Yeah well, yes, that’s where … what was that fella’s name again?

Ah – Gordon?

Dale: Actually it was mainly the visitors who rang the bell I think Campbell, wasn’t it? Mainly the visitors? You members could walk in couldn’t you?

Campbell:  I think – ah, what’s that Dick ..?

Dick Burfield, Albert Jensen, Gordon Stewart.

Yeah, that’s them.

One of them would open the door?

Yeah.

Or the manservant would open the door if the visitors rang the bell. Is that right?

Well yes, personally – yes.

Dale: Weren’t the members able to just walk in? Or you had to wait to be … to go in too, did you?

Campbell:  Yeah, mmm. Well also too, I think they had to have a book to …

Dale: You had a book to sign in.

Campbell:  Booked them in, yes.

Dale: And it was on the lectern as they went in …

Yes.

Dale: … just by the big picture.

Every person that went in had to sign the book?

Campbell:  Yeah.

Even if they were a visitor?

I think that happened, yeah.

Dale: I can remember – when I used to go and pick up my father on a Friday night, having to ring the bell, and because women … and I was only a young teenager then, I wasn’t allowed in – and I had to wait outside until my father came to the door.

So the door was closed?

Dale: The door was closed and you rang the bell … [speaking together]

And you were standing outside … [speaking together]

Dale: Yes, I had to wait outside. [Speaking together]

There was only a poky little room … and actually the room … [speaking together]

Dale: Oh there was a little room you could go into, but I was never allowed there – had I been my mother – she probably would have been taken to that room but because I was a young teenager I had to wait outside.

Campbell:  See the little room was about this size and that was at the front of the Club …

Was that what was called the “strangers’ room”? [Speaking together]

… and then you went through the other – main doors and you go in, ’cause that was part of it.

Dale: That’s really what they considered the wives’ … strangers not allowed in the men’s domain.

Campbell:  Oh, yeah … behave yourself in those days.

Yes, yes. Now Campbell, I think we might stop there …

Yeah.

… that’s seventeen minutes we’ve been talking.  And then we’ll talk a little about the snooker room.

The snooker room – yeah, okay.

So we’ll stop it here.