Nelson, Diane June Interview
Good morning. Today’s Tuesday, 23rd February 2021. I am Lyn Sturm and I’m about to interview Diane Nelson of Hastings.
Hello, I’m Diane Nelson. I was born in Hastings on 7th June 1936 at Sister Cooper’s, which was a private nursing home [in] St Aubyn Street in Hastings, but it’s now a funeral directors. So as I say, I was born there and then three years later my sister came along. And I can remember going to see her, and she was in a bassinet … a canvas bassinet … in a corner of a room. So that was my first introduction to my sister.
And so then I went to kindy. I had a little trike, and I was escorted to kindy all the time. And then came our primary school days, and we went to Parkvale School which was in Hastings and in those days we went right through to Standard 6 because there was no Intermediate. That was a wonderful school. And from then we went on to … it’s now Hastings Boys’ High School, but in my days it was a co-ed [co-educational] school; and I had four years there, and loved every minute of my schooling. So while I was at school we were in the primary school choir, and we used to meet in St Andrew’s Hall. And once every year we’d have a concert in the … well it used to be called the Municipal Theatre in those days; now the Opera House … and we’d sit up on the stage and all sing.
We had a marching team at school which was wonderful, and we did a display for parents. And while we were at primary school we had a teacher who was very good with pottery, and he used to pile us into his little Citroen car – I don’t know how many of us got into it – and we’d go out to the pottery works in Havelock [North] where we’d made pottery things. I made lots and lots of friends at school and I still have a lot of the same friends. In fact yesterday I went out for lunch with three of them that I’d been to school with; and we meet up, so that’s a very long friendship … probably nearly eighty years. When we were at primary school we had to walk to school and walk home; but when we came [to] Standard 5 we went over to Manual Training which was at Central School, and my mother bought me a bike at this stage ‘cause we had to bike over. And we learnt to cook and sew … so-called, well … at best. At [in] my high school days we could choose which subjects we were to take, and I took French. What earthly use it’s done me I’ve no idea – but Miss Miller took us for French there.
And so while we were at school I went to the St Andrew’s Sunday School, which was a big Sunday School, and we used to have concerts at the end of the year. And then when we finished Sunday School we went on to Bible Class, and we used to go off to camps at Easter and we’d sleep in schools on palliasses, which was straw in sleeping bags. We’d go on a Thursday night and come home on Monday. There was [were] no showers … nothing like that; all there was was somewhere to clean your teeth, and I don’t think we even did those. [Chuckles] So that was our Bible Class days.
And then I joined the Girl Guides. I was never a Brownie, but we went to the Girl Guides which was in the old St Barnabas Hall which is in Windsor Avenue now; and it was a big old two storey building. Unfortunately it got burnt down, and that was the finish of my guiding days.
When I left school I really wanted to go nursing, but the lady across the road who knew everything, said I was to go Palmerston North and do my nursing. Well, I was such a homesick person I would never have coped so that was the finish of my nursing. But I went and worked for a dentist as the dentist’s nurse, and I had five lovely years there and loved every minute of it.
But during this time we joined, my sister and I joined the skating club, and that was on a Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday nights. And we’d go down to the skating rink and we’d skate, we all had little short skirts and white boots with the skates. And I had many, many lovely trips; we went to Picton, Palmerston [North], skating all round there. Prior to all this, when I was seven my mother told me I was to learn the piano. So she took me along to the Convent and we went through, up the path; and then a nun came to the door in black and white, and I screamed. That was the finish of my going to music at the Convent, but Mum found somebody worse. Ohh! But I learnt from her for a long, long time – I think I learnt music ‘til I was about eighteen, and then I did some modern music, but I never did my letters or anything like that.
During that time there was always a Blossom week where we had lots of fun. I’m just going to pause now and I’m going to let my sister, Glenys Riddell – we did everything together – have a little say now.
Glenys: Right … I just wanted to remind Diane about Blossom week; what a big event it was in Hastings in those days; and every household got a programme to say what was on during that week and each programme had a lucky number. So our Granny, who helped bring us up, would toddle around; we’d take our numbers up one side of Heretaunga Street, down the other, looking at every shop window for our numbers. The shopkeepers would change them each day, so the next day we’d go again; year after year but still we haven’t even claimed a prize there. And one night during that week there was the big Blossom concert where they crowned the Blossom Queen for that year; but you had to queue for hours outside Foster Brooks to get your tickets, to try and get into the stalls or the dress circle or the gods, as the third storey was called in those days. So Blossom week – and there was probably the two Jacks that did entertainment; the little Spark girls would do their highland and tap dancing.
And another thing that Granny used to take us to in the holidays was Windsor Park when all the campers would come in for the Christmas holidays, and they’d show movies, they’d have talent quests … so it was free entertainment, and Granny would take us there. She used to love going to watch the marching; so she’d pick the two girls up on her way down and we’d go to Nelson Park and watch the marching; and perhaps a Cornwall Park visit in the holidays. I’ll hand it back to Diane now, ‘cause she’ll probably tell us [about] a bus trip to Napier once a year which was a real treat.
Diane: Yeah, well Mum was great; she didn’t have a car, so our treats in the holidays … twice in the holidays … we’d go to Napier on the bus. And in those days you had to go via Whakatu, and it was quite a trip. And so we’d go, and we’d have one pair of rusty skates between us at this stage – this is before our flasher days – and so off we’d go. Then we’d go for lunch at a milk bar with Mum and Granny, and we used to be allowed three things to eat, that was all; and then come home on the bus. So that was a wonderful trip.
Then in the summer we used to go swimming every day to the Madison baths. And I think they were emptied on a Friday and filled on the Monday, and by that time they were completely green ’cause it was before the days of chlorine or anything like that. But we spent hours up at the swimming pool. I remember when I was at school I decided I was going to do my lifesaving certificate; so the bronze one was simple, and then the silver one you had to jump off the high diving board. And I’m no good at heights; I got up the top of the board and I couldn’t do it, so I never got my silver medallion at all. But we had a great time – I mean, we did have a wonderful mother. She really worked hard, and gave us everything we needed; she was superb.
Glenys: She was a good Mum. What about our holidays?
Diane: Well our grandmother married again at the age of eighty; I thought she was terribly old. And she went to live in Levin, so Glenys and I as little girls were put on the train by Mum in Hastings, with strict instructions not to get off the train ‘til we got to Levin. Well we didn’t know where Levin was. So … remember, we got to Waipuk? [Waipukurau] And Mum had given us a bit of spending money, so I hop off the train, leave Glenys … she was probably about seven; I was ten … hop off, and I went and got us a cup of tea each [chuckles] – ‘cause that’s what you could do in those days – and got on. And Grandma was always there to meet us in Levin, summer and winter; she had a fur coat … you could never see her hands because the fur coat covered everything … and the hat with the big feather sticking up the top of it. And we were met by Grandma, and those were our holidays. Another time we were put on the bus – two little girls again – up to Mangakino. We probably had to change buses, but we got there; came home again with no problem at all.
And then when I finished school there used to be so many dances and things on. The Young Farmers’ Club always had great dances, and those boys were pretty good, the young farmers, ‘cause most of them had a car, so we’d go to all these balls. We used to do all our own sewing, so we’d race home at lunchtime; Mum had a treadle sewing machine, Singer, and we’d treadle away and make the new dress for that Saturday night, and off we’d go. And it was at one of those balls that I met my husband, and I danced with him. And he said to me, “What colour roof have you got on your house?” I can’t remember – I think it was probably red in those days. I said, “Red.” He was doing his private pilot’s licence and he’d flown over our house the next morning to see where we lived. [Chuckles] He’d obviously passed the … [Chuckles] So I met him in the June, we were engaged in the September, and married the following May. And then the following May I had my first daughter; and then I had three children under three. Oh, and then I moved at that time into the country – a girl that [who] couldn’t cook, aged twenty-two. Glenys reminded me that I could make a custard; so there was I with a man that expected three cooked meals a day, seven days a week. [Chuckles] So that was all fun. But sadly, my husband was killed in a car accident after we’d been married only nine years. So I had three small children, but we just got on with it. I had a wonderful sister – and Glenys’s husband – who took care of us, and that was it.
Really back-tracking now to our great-grandparents. Great-Granny came from Wales, and her husband was Irish. So they came over and they built a cob cottage in Culverton [Culverden] in the South Island. The cob cottage is still there, and it was taken over by the Historic Places Trust and has all been done up, but still in the original condition that it was. So they had five children there. And then our grandmother came up to work in Havelock and she met our grandfather who’d come from Hamilton; and they married in January 1908. Grandad had a job at Tauroa Station which belonged to the Chambers up Tauroa Road; and Mum was born nine months later, followed by four more children.
Granny waited ‘til Mum was six, and then her [she] and Uncle Jack walked from up at Tauroa, right down to Havelock North Primary School. So Mum knew all Havelock North … where all the roads were, just everything about [it].
Granny’s aunt in Australia had left Granny money, and it was to educate our mother and her sister at Iona [College]. But they could see that the Depression was going to come, and Grandad bought his own farm which was down the end of St Andrew’s Road in Havelock North, and they moved there. I have photos of it; there was an old barn there, and that had been originally a picture theatre in Havelock North and it had been moved there well before Granny and Grandad went there. I’ve got many photos taken there. Grandad had cows and pigs; I can remember the pigs.
Mum was a florist at Wilson’s Nurseries which is [was] down Pakowhai Road, and used to bike from there every day to the nurseries. And then she’d bike home at night, help with the milking, and then bike back again for basketball practice. She met our father, and they got married in 1933 and produced my sister and I.
So I was left a widow when I was thirty-one, and I had three small children aged eight, six and five. I stayed on the farm another four years, and then it was needed for a worker, so I bought a house in town and moved into town.
And of course at that stage the children were able to go to different schools when we moved into town. My son went to Hereworth; there was a bus at the corner – he was a day boy – but he kept missing the bus. So I remember this day he came home – I was still in my nightie and dressing gown – and he’d missed the bus again. So I drove out to school in my nightie and dressing gown … poor boy; and he never missed the bus again. [Chuckles] The thought of his mother in her nightie and dressing gown going up to school [chuckle] … so that was that.
I didn’t have a lot of money, so I remember this guy who I knew came up, and he said would I like to pick asparagus; and I said, “No thank you.” Any rate, I did; and there used to be seven of us worked. And we worked on … it was called a rig, and we all sat on this thing and picked the asparagus. And then I picked the peaches, packed apples; oh, and I worked with the District Nurses; I wasn’t a nurse, but I was their aide, and had six wonderful months doing that.
But in that time we’d managed to have a bit of a ding with the car, so it was out of action. And I used to have to bike on my daughter’s bike up to the hospital; leave my bike, get in the District Nurse’s car and then go all round; then ride my bike home. But then I got this wonderful job working in a dress shop, and I had seventeen lovely years working with clothing, which I just thoroughly enjoyed.
When I retired I joined up with Probus, and a collectors’ group in Havelock which I really enjoy. What else did I belong to? Oh, U3A, which was social history …
Glenys: Garden group …
Diane: Oh, bowls. I was never very good at bowls, but I enjoyed it. I did say to somebody one day, “I don’t seem to be coping very well at bowls”, and she said, “Well if you zipped your mouth up” [chuckle] “and didn’t talk so much …” And now I play cards, and thoroughly enjoy our card afternoons. And I love our St Andrew’s Church which I go to every week. My eldest daughter is now sixty-one, nearly; she became a registered nurse, and she went off to England and worked at Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital and did her Masters over there. And my other daughter did Enrolled Nursing. My son went off to Lincoln and he became a farmer and he’s on the family farm.
Diane: Oh … forgot about the grandchildren. And I have eight grandchildren – the eldest is twenty-six, down to eighteen, so everybody’s now finished school. So I’ve got no more schools to go to, but I just enjoy the grandchildren.
I had this lovely friend who’s since passed away, but Sue and I did many trips together. Our first trip together, she said, “Have you ever been camping in Australia?” And I said, “No.” “It’s such fun”, she said, “you don’t have to do anything.” “Okay”, says me; so I remember we flew to Perth. And then we had to fly back to Adelaide, and we got on a bus. ‘Bus’ was too grand a word; but it trailed a trailer behind that was refrigerated and had all the food. We found out there was a tour director and a cook; ‘cook’ was too grand a word for her, but … So we trailed around, we’d stop for morning tea on the side of the road; we, the passengers, had to help with the cooking for dinner. Yep – we had to put our own tents up. My job was to climb up and heave the mattresses down, which were about two inches thick, from way up top. So we had a camp stretcher and a mattress, and our own sleeping bags; and we went right through – we slept underground at Coober Pedy – and we went right round. When we got back I said to Sue, “Don’t you ever, ever ask me to go camping again. Ever.”
What year was that?
That was 1987. No, hang on, that’s wrong … yeah, but round about then.
My eldest daughter had gone off to England in 1985, so in 1987 I thought, ‘Right – I’ll go over and see them.’ So off I set. They didn’t have a car; they met me out at Gatwick, so we had to walk all the way, which was a long way. My suitcase didn’t have wheels at that stage – ‘cause we didn’t have wheels – so we lugged this suitcase along. They were in a two-bedroom flat on [the] top floor in West Kensington; and I was number seven to move into the two bedroom flat. So Wendy slept at the foot of my bed; [chuckles] I had the bed, and had some wonderful times there. So then about every second year, or every year, I went off to England. They’d ring and say, “Oh, we’re off to Corfu”, or “we’re going somewhere”, so off I went.
But then in between times Sue, my friend, said, “Have you ever been cruising?” And I said, “No.” I said, “Is it better than camping?” And she said, “Oh yes, much better.” So we had some wonderful cruises; we did twice round Australia; we went up to Vietnam; we went over to Hawaii; round New Zealand; and we really did have some wonderful times cruising. And then sadly, my friend died.
So when one of my grandsons turned twenty-one that was his present – he wanted to go cruising. So I went with Thomas and his mother … forgotten where we went to, round New Zealand I think, or somewhere. And the following year we did it again. So I’ve certainly had some lovely holidays.
Our great-grandmother came over to New Zealand on the ‘Viola’, and when she had her first daughter, she was called Amy Viola, and our mother was called Ethel Viola; so after the ship they came out on. But I don’t know anything else about the ship at all.
Do you know where they landed?
They landed down in the South Island, because they had to walk … remember Mum showed us that post?
Glenys: They would’ve landed in Lyttelton.
Glenys: And they stayed a wee bit of time in Canterbury … in Christchurch. Then they walked with a dray and a horse through to Culverden, and they stayed one night at the red post; so if you’re ever travelling down that way there’s a red post at Culverden corner; because the cob cottage is actually at … I put you wrong there, Diane … it’s actually at Rotherham. And Granny remembers, or she was told the story, about the night that they stayed there – she was put to bed in a drawer of a dressing table they were taking with them. And that’s about the only stories we ever heard from her. When we went down to the reopening of the cob cottage the children from the Rotherham School did a mime; a story on the Watters family arriving. And the little girl that depicted our grandma was just identical to how we had seen photos of Granny at that age. But it was a lovely story; and Mum opened the key of the cottage. I was there – I’ve been a couple of times – I was there recently, after the Kaikoura earthquakes because Rotherham is inland from Kaikoura; it’s level on the map. And my husband and I went down to make sure that the headstones in the cemetery, of our great-grandparents and our great uncle, were okay. There was a lot of broken headstones but our three were still intact, so that was good.
So we went through the cottage again. There’s a caretaker lives in behind, and she has the key. Our son was there recently too; he was very proud to be connected with the cob cottage. But it was built differently than the cob cottage in Blenheim – it was built to the Irish style which … our Great-Grandad put the chimney in between in the middle wall; so therefore when Great-Granny lit the fire it warmed both rooms. Since then they’ve actually added another room; our great uncle who never married lived there as a bachelor for many a year … until the early 1990s he was there. He didn’t die until the 1990s … yeah.
Diane: But it still had the pump … the water pump outside, that he had to pump the water. It was so basic you’d wonder how they could live, you know, five children and two adults, in this … The fire just had things hanging over the fire for cooking – no stove or anything like that, it was all just cooked over the fire. And I don’t know where they did their washing – I mean, aren’t we lucky nowadays? We’ve got everything.
Glenys: Last year when we were doing a news article when Covid … you know, the lockdown we had for three or four weeks … weren’t we lucky it was only that long? I said, our families went through worse than that; our parents went through the 1918 war, the ‘31 depression, the ‘33 earthquake, the Second World War, and the polio epidemic; and we were moaning about three weeks of not being able to get to a shop.
Diane: And the flu, the 1918 flu … see, one of our aunts died in that. And then the following year an uncle died of peritonitis, or it was either … other way round, I can’t remember who had what. But that was all then – and our grandmother lost two children within a year.
This is back to the days of our grandmother’s washing day. The wash house was set apart from the house, it was across the yard, and that was where all the washing was done. But in our mother’s time, on a Sunday night you used to have to cut the kindling up really little, and that was put [into] a little box thing under the copper. That was lit on a Monday morning, the copper had to be filled with water and that all boiled up; and then the washing was put in there [and] boiled to death. Mum had a copper stick, and she used to lift the clothes out with the copper stick into the first tub and then the wringer. You had to turn the wringer by hand, and that went into another tub that had blue rinsing water in it. That was to make the clothes white; and then it went out through the wringer again and then out on to the clothesline; carried out in a basket and into the backyard, where we had two long clotheslines with props. The props were sticks that put it all up. [Held up the lines] So that was how the washing was done. We never had a [an] ironing board; Mum always had at the end of the kitchen table a blanket with a white sheet on top, and that was where the ironing was done, and no steam irons in those days.
When I got married we didn’t have a washing machine; we couldn’t afford one. So I had to trot up to my in-laws’ place with the washing to do it. Well that lasted twice, because my mother-in-law had a Beatty washing machine which was stainless steel with a wringer. And the first time I did it I didn’t clean the washing machine properly – it had to be polished; so I remember saying to John, “I’m not going up there again.” So we bought a washing machine second-hand with a wringer … oh, that was bliss.
But in those days I had two in naps [nappies] I think, and you had all these naps; no dryer, and you’re trying to get these things dry. But we never thought anything of it. No disposable naps in those days; we used to buy three dozen naps, and you bought another dozen new ones when number three baby came along. But that was our lot.
Glenys: Going back to Mum bringing in the washing, or when she was hanging it out – she had a tin dish with the Rawleigh’s starch she’d made up, so all the napkins, the pillowslips, and everything that had to be starched was then dipped into this stuff and hung out. And then when it was brought in, she had a sprinkler thing attached to a lemonade bottle, and she’d sprinkle them and roll them up ready to iron them. So starching was very important in those days. Fortunately it’s gone out … well, you can spray it out of a can these days.
Diane: Oh, and another thing I forgot – to empty the copper Mum had a dipper, and I still have the dipper. It’s like a tin bucket with a handle on it. I’ve got a photo of my eldest daughter; she was twenty months old, and Glenys was minding her when I went in to have number two baby. And there’s my little twenty-year-old with the dipper cleaning …
Glenys: Twenty-month-old …
Diane: … cleaning Glenys’s car [chuckle] with the dipper and a cloth. [Chuckles]
Glenys: They had to work for their meals in those days.
Diane: And I still have the dipper, and nobody understands what a dipper is when you say to them. Oh, and the washboard … I’ve still got Granny’s scrubbing board.
Another thing that copper was used for – Granny used to come around, and I remember her and Mum making soap, ‘cause you couldn’t buy soap in those days; and it had some caustic stuff in it, and it smelt … oh, I can still smell the soap they were making into a bar and then the next day when it had all set they’d cut it into bits.
Glenys: Yes, it had caustic in it.
Diane: [Speaking together] But we were quite posh ‘cause we had an inside toilet, and that was really quite something in those days. But the people across the road had an outside one and it was under a prickly hedge, and you had to go there. And Mum said to us, “You’re not to use the lavatory over there, you’re to come home.” Nowhere to wash your hands across the road, you know.
Glenys: Those same people – and this is right in the middle of Hastings city – had a dugout, really in case the Japs came. So you had to go in; I didn’t like underground so I’d never go down. And then friends of mine eventually built on that site, and I told them about this; I said, “Do you realise, underneath where you would put your house there was a big dugout.”
Diane: I hated that dugout.
Glenys: And during the war our next door neighbour was a street warden. So his job each night was to go round and make sure nobody’s lights were shining in case the Japanese flew over and saw the lights. So he had a posh sign on his gate …
Diane: E.P.S. Street Warden – but I don’t know what the E.P.S. stood for … Emergency something-or-other. But everybody had brown blinds because see, they wouldn’t let light in, so everybody had brown blinds.
Glenys: His name was Mr Bartholomew.
Diane: We couldn’t say that, so we called them Aunty and Uncle.
So year would that be?
Glenys: That during the Second World War, so …
Diane: So 1943, ‘44, ‘45.
Glenys: But the Japanese didn’t get this far; but New Zealand was protected.
Diane: We used to have emergency things at Parkvale School; when the bell went you had to run out and you went under this block of trees. I don’t know how that was going to save us.
Glenys: Diane can probably remember more about the holiday we got when the polio epidemic came around. It shouldn’t have been classed as a holiday but we didn’t have to go to school.
Diane: No, ‘cause polio was rife, and all the schools were closed and we had to do correspondence. And I can still see myself sitting at the kitchen table, with Mum helping do this correspondence. We had to send it away and then it would come back in the post with your marks on it. It was quite fun.
Glenys: It actually happened twice ‘cause it was November one year, and then the following February-March.
Diane: But I can’t remember what year that was, you probably were still …
Glenys: I was at school.
Diane: Glenys set off, when she went to kindy, on the trike, used to be my trike but it was handed down to her. And somebody said to Mum one day, “Saw Glenys going along smoking.” [Chuckle] So Mum followed her up this day; sure enough she got off her trike, dipped into the gutter, picked up the old butt and she was [chuckles] puffing along the road. [Chuckle] Mum put a stop to that. [Chuckle]
Glenys: I had two friends that had trikes, and they used to pick me up at my corner. We went the two blocks up to Heretaunga Street, rode our little trikes across Heretaunga Street, down to Warren Street to the Drill Hall … Army Hall, one or t’other … for kindy. Little three year olds.
Diane: And yet when it was my turn to go to kindy – before this – I used to be taken. [Chuckle]
Glenys: No, we used to trot off; it was Antoinette and Peter.
Diane: When we were children there weren’t many exciting things; but Jean Ballantyne’s ballet recital was ‘the’ thing to go to. And of course I always had a great ambition of being the top ballerina in the world; and I never was, or did learn ballet. So Mum or Granny used to go up and queue up outside Foster Brooks, ‘cause there was a huge queue for the ballet recitals, and her ballet recitals were just beautiful. In fact my daughters learnt from Jean Ballantyne years later.
And then there was another dancing teacher, Ivena Pothan. She taught elocution, tap dancing … and my mother decided at one stage that I would have some elocution lessons. So I used to get there very early because the tap dancing class was on, and I’d sit and I’d take in all the steps and I’d go home and practise. I didn’t have tap shoes.
Our father had belonged to a Lodge, and they used to have a Lodge Christmas party once a year up at the Assembly Hall. And Father Christmas was there, and you got this beautiful supper, and a present. So those were all exciting things we had just prior to Christmas.
Glenys: Another thing that people would be interested in … because there was no social welfare in those days and our mother ended up bringing us two girls up on her own, she used to take in sewing so she could still work from home. So the boy from Hunt’s Drapers and from another firm, Westerman’s I think … he used to come down on his bike with the orders and take back. So in those days the nappy material would come in a bulk; [bolt] so she’d cut them off to the size of the square. And that was how Diane and I learned to sew, ‘cause you had to edge them; fold these nappies up. Also, the children’s bibs would come, and we learned how to put bias binding around the neck and do those. But the worst job she struck was the net curtains and they always had to have frills on the bottom. So she’d make these frills – she had a friller on her machine – mind you, in those days it was the old Singer treadle machine. Later on she could afford a motor and put that on; so when we were in bed at night we’d hear this machine going.
But then she landed doing Holland blinds, and most people wanted the bottom scalloped; so our job would be to help her veer the blind through the machine so she could put the scallop frill on the bottom. And then the next day after school the boy would come and collect them and bring the next order. So that was how she got some income coming in to support her, two girls, and keep the house going. And during the war I remember Granny coming round looking after us, and Mum went up [to] the IMD, which was the Internal Marketing Board, [Division] and packing up cauliflowers and cabbages to send over to the soldiers. How they kept on a ship I don’t know. But I also remember Granny and Mum making fruit cakes and sewing the old flour bags around the cakes and they were sent over to the soldiers. There were a lot of women in those days knitted the socks to go over to the soldiers as well, but I don’t think Mum ever got involved with the sock knitting.
Diane: Definitely not.
Thank you, Diane and Glenys. It’s nice to learn all about your lives and your family, and on behalf of the Knowledge Bank I thank you both very, very much.
Both: It’s been our pleasure.
Original digital file
This work is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 New Zealand (CC BY-NC 3.0 NZ).
Commercial UsePlease contact us for information about using this material commercially.
Interviewer: Lyn Sturm