Smith, Scotty Interview

Today is 25th September [2023] and I’m privileged to be speaking to Scotty Smith in his home in Taradale. My name is Judy Shinnick. Scotty, welcome, and I’m wondering where you were brought up, and whether you started off in Hawke’s Bay?

I can tell you that; I was born in Grantown-on-Spey in the Highlands of Scotland, henceforth I got the name ‘Scotty’ when I came here. I was born there in 1944 with two older brothers, and my father had a plumbing business. Mum had been a teacher. My dad would’ve been born in 1900; my mother [a] couple of years later, and they had always wanted to come to New Zealand but were too busy raising kids and everything.

And an opportunity came; I think I cut my hand and went to hospital to get it stitched up. And while I was getting it stitched up my mother started talking to an old shepherd who had frostbitten fingers. But he was from Southern Hawke’s Bay somewhere, and for some reason they got talking and enthused about coming to New Zealand which they had always wanted, and so packed up and everybody came to New Zealand. I was about twelve.

Can you remember the journey out here?

Yes, I can. Well we packed up everything and went on the Southern Cross ship, and came out via South Africa ‘cause at that time I think the Suez crisis was on so they couldn’t go through the Suez [Canal], so went round the bottom and through Australia etcetera, and across to New Zealand; arrived in Wellington and came to Hawke’s Bay where my dad had got a job as a plumber, building the acid plant at the fertiliser works – the original East Coast Farmers Fertiliser [Works]. He built a house in Howard Road just round there and I went straight to Boys’ High School in Napier.

How long did the journey take you?

Probably if I remember it, about six or eight weeks.

Can you remember any highlights about sailing out here, or anything of note?

Oh, it was a pretty wonderful experience. Nothing that surprised me because we’d had a pretty good education. Scotland has good education, so I was expecting what I got, you know, in South Africa and places like that. Ah, it was shocking to see the apartheid and things like that there. We called in at the Canary Islands on the way and I bought myself a guitar. It was the first guitar I’d had, so the rot started then. Australia produced Australian things like kookaburras and things you’d expect; and I think I remember driving into Napier and seeing the line of Phoenix palms and thinking, ‘Oh, this is nae Scotland!’ [Chuckle] ‘We’re in a tropical country here.’ It’s not that tropical, but the palms did it for me.

What do you remember of your childhood in Scotland?

Oh … pretty good childhood; a lot of snow, and cold things. When it was cold you put two pairs of trousers on and two pairs of socks and two jackets, and walked off into the snow to school. Got to school, took them all off – or one – and hung it up; and took your boots off and put another pair of shoes on and went into the classroom. But oh … pretty good; normal for school these [those] days. They whacked you with straps and things like that, like they did here.

And your siblings went to the same school?

Yes, went to school there. And by that time my eldest brother – he’d been in the army for two years. And then he was studying to be a vet, but decided he’d come with us so that he could get a job and help to build the house, which you did in those days.

What was that brother’s name?

Max was the oldest brother; Lou was the middle brother, five years older, and he went to the Boys’ High as well – just finished there, [think] he did a year.

So you ended up settling in Taradale?

We settled in Taradale. I think we rented a house for a wee while up Meeanee Road, then built a house in Howard Road and that was it.

And what about your memories of being at Boys’ High – what was that like?

We had fun; I didn’t like school much [chuckles] … didn’t like it at all; I just wanted to play music. But it was just normal; in those days, you know, you did something wrong you got the cane. But [it] didn’t worry us too much, it was as it was, you know.

So what age were you when you left school?

Seventeen, eighteen – I went straight from school to Teachers’ Training College. Ardmore. I think somebody told me you could get the day off school if you went for the interview. [Chuckle] I thought, ‘That’ll do me.’ So I went to the interview and then hung around town for a while [thinking], ‘This is pretty good’, and then forgot all about it; and got a letter in the school holidays somewhere. I said to my mother, “Hey, I’m going to Training College.”

So that was what decided you?

And you got paid in those days.

Yes. So that was up in Auckland?

Ardmore, yeah, in Papakura.

You mentioned earlier you bought your first guitar on your way over here and you also mentioned that you were first on stage when you were four, so can you tell me about your love of music?

I’d always played piano and things like that …

Right from an early age?

Yes. Yes, probably from when I was four and went on stage consistently with … I don’t know, groups like … the equivalent here would be the Frivs or the Operatic Society kind of things … as well; always in competitions and singing in the Gaelic language mostly, and in English too. They had competitions called “The Mὸd, which is like … equivalent here would be like the Kapa Haka competitions, so we always did that.

When you say ‘we’ ..?

The family. My next brother up did the dancing, the Highland dancing; things like that, and I did the singing, and played consistently and sang on stage. I was, for a while as a kid, working in … it was called Variety Theatre, I think, in those days, singing Scottish sort of stuff in a kilt, and humorous stuff; and got well paid.

Was this part of a group or you were doing solo ..?

Just myself, that one; that was by myself, but I was singing on stage in groups as well. We came out here and played guitar and we formed a band in high school and worked, probably about Fifth Form, Sixth Form, playing around here at rugby socials, and twenty-firsts, and weddings and things.

So was this a band formed with school mates?

Yes, with other school mates, yeah. And we played … that would be in about 1959, ’60, ’61, around that era … and played round here. I still catch up with some of the people I played with – none of them play now though. I was completely diseased so …

[Chuckle] Or completely gifted …

And we always had a good time. We didn’t know very much, but [chuckle] we could play. Mostly in those days the people paying us would be probably of the World War II variety, so they wanted Valettas, and Gay Gordons and Waltzes and Foxtrots, and so we played a lot of instrumental stuff, and managed to sneak in a Twist at the end of it somewhere. [Chuckle] That’s something.

So what instruments were you playing?

Always guitar, yeah.

Were you still playing the piano?

No, no. I mean I play it now, but never professional[ly].

Did you teach yourself the piano or did you have lessons?

No, I went to piano lessons as a child, you know, but never had guitar lessons, just learnt on the job.

Something I didn’t ask before, did your mother work as well when you first came?

She went and started teaching at Bledisloe [School] when that first started, and then she taught at St Joseph’s Primary, the Catholic School, which was probably [a] first for a Protestant at that time. She really enjoyed it and got on well, but when she started she wasn’t even allowed to eat in the same room as the nuns, you know? But that changed …

Pretty strict …

But things changed, and she got on well with them … taught there for quite a few years.

Was it unusual for woman [women] to be working at that time?

At that time, I suppose as teachers and things, yes. In Scotland married women didn’t work very often, you know? And here at that time, if you had a job at the fertiliser works or something you could build a house and have a family without your wife working, unless you wanted extra. So normally she’d probably wouldn’t have worked until we were more settled.

Can you tell us a bit about your time at Ardmore Teachers’ College?

Well Ardmore was a strange place; it was right out in the old American World War II barracks by the Ardmore aerodrome, and it was a sort of heavenly place for young lads because there were two or three times as many girls there, [chuckles] stuck away out, you know, five miles from civilisation. Oh, we had a lot of fun.

What was your experience of the course?

You did a lot of studying and tests, but, you know, the part that really helped you to teach was being out in the classrooms.

Is that what they used to call being ‘on section’?

That was what it was called, yeah … no idea why it was called ‘on section’, but that’s what it was called. And even that doesn’t fully prepare you for being landed with a whole lot of children, and that’s your job, which was pretty much the case in those days, you know. When you left you went to a school and got on with it.

Can you remember some of the places you went on section to?

Anything within a bus ride of Papakura, so into Drury, and north right to Penrose, Pukekohe … that big area, so once you got past about Penrose that would’ve been Auckland Teachers’ College looking after that.

So did you continue with your music in that time?

Yes. Always continued playing but there was not much professional ability when you were there, ‘cause you were stuck away out nowhere. Just played, and when I was starting to teach I was way out in the country. I started teaching at Nuhaka School for a year, and then [a] couple of years at Whakaki Maori School, just north of Wairoa.

Nuhaka, how big was that? Like, how many students would you have?

Not a tiny school at all, no, there would’ve been ten teachers there, I suppose … maybe a bit less, but it wasn’t a tiny school. Nuhaka had, up ‘til two years, or one year before, had had a European School and a Maori School … Maori Services School, and they combined there. Then I went from there to Whakaki which was a Maori School, which was good; I don’t know what it was like from, you know, they talk about the old schools, the Maori Schools and things like that, but there didn’t seem to be much of not allowing the kids to speak Maori or anything there.

Were some speaking Maori?

Sometimes – they’d come from other places. Sometimes I had some kids who were sent from deep in the Urewera country, to brush up on their English probably, some of them. At Nuhaka and Whakaki I stayed with a Maori family; boarded there. They spoke Maori at the table.

So did you learn Maori?

Conversational.

And can you still speak conversational Maori?

I’m pretty rusty in the conversation but I comprehend a lot of it. I can get by, but if you haven’t used it consistently …

Gets a bit rusty?

Definitely. I mean, same with my own native language; the Gaelic has pretty much gone, apart from songs and sayings.

So if you went back you might be …

Aaah, you could get by in Scotland with English. Gaelic is not generally spoken. But it was after the Battle of Culloden and things my ancestors were all hacked to pieces, and if they spoke [chuckle] Gaelic they would kill ‘em. If they wore a kilt they’d kill ‘em.

That sounds quite vicious …

Very vicious. And knocked the houses down; and so many Scots people went to Canada and New Zealand and Australia at that time.

How long did you spend at each school?

One year at Nuhaka, and then two years, I think, at Whakaki. I was married then and we went to the King Country; we went to Te Kuiti for a few years there, teaching, and then came back and I taught for the rest of the time in Napier, at Maraenui [School] for a couple of years; and then Pirimai [School] for a couple of years, then Tamatea [School] when it started, for quite a few years; then Greenmeadows for … oh, I don’t know … six years or so, and then stopped to do music full time.

Whereabouts did you meet your wife?

I met her at Training College. She had immigrated with her parents and ended up in Greenmeadows – I didn’t know her then, but they came out the same year as us, in 1957.

From Scotland?

No, she’s from Yorkshire.

So same neck of the woods?

No! Not to a Scotsman.

Oh. Sorry! [Chuckles]

They’d be Sassenachs. [Chuckle]

Did she continue teaching as well?

She did her first year of teaching in Wairoa at Hillneath School [previously Wairoa Intermediate; now Tiaho School] and then taught for a couple of years in Te Kuiti and came back and we had children. She didn’t teach again ‘til they were at school.

What is your wife’s name?

Beryl.

Just tell me about your children – when you had your children, and their names as well.

Well, first was my daughter, and that would be in 1969. And she was born in Bethany [Hospital], Napier, and my son, Robert, was born in ’71. They went to school here at Taradale School and Taradale High, and then went off to university.

And are they in Hawke’s Bay now?

No, my daughter’s in Wellington; she’s got a couple of kids, and she lives in Maungaraki in Wellington by Petone. And my son lives sort of between … now he has a degree in financial things, and went and worked in London on the Stock Exchange, and [in] Dubai and places like that, and then came back here. He’s got some land up at Willow Flat; half way between here and Wairoa but inland down by the Mohaka River. He’s got a house there, but he spends time [over] there and comes back here sometimes. And when he feels like making a bit of money he just goes and does things.

In the finance world?

No, he’s had enough of that. He can drive trucks and things; he’s been driving road trains in Australia … anything adventurous, he goes and does.

We’ll go back – what year did you finish teaching and switch to music?

1994. My dad always worked; always went on about what he would do when he retired and he didn’t retire until he was in his 70s and retired and promptly keeled over

With a heart attack or something?

No. No, cancer. And I said to myself then, “Not me.” I said, “I’ll work ‘til I’m fifty and then I’ll just do music”. That was way back when I was in my twenties, so that’s what I did. And when I was fifty I said, “That’s it – I’m just doing music.”

So tell me how you managed to just get into a full time .. .

I’ve always worked, you see, when my kids were small. When they were very small I didn’t work, but when they were sort of school age I played two or three nights a week. And in those days music was a good paying job too, as well as the teaching; it paid as much as teaching, just on two or three nights a week.

Was this people requesting ..?

Mostly … in pubs in the band, and then bigger corporate do’s and weddings and things as well.

So did you form your own band or what happened there?

Well, at that time when the kids were little, the band I was in was called ‘Homegrown’, and we worked for a long time here. And later on I had another band … have another band now, as well. It was from back in the 1980s, called “The Kawekas”.

That’s when it was formed?

Yeah. Homegrown lasted quite a few years.

And how many in that band?

Usually three or four, depending on the work. And I still play with many of them, but “The Kawekas” now virtually is anyone, whether it’s a duo or a trio and we go up to a six-piece with horns and …

And you’re guitar and vocals?

Yeah, guitar and vocals; well I usually play rhythm guitar and vocals. So there’s always going to be a lead guitar player, or keyboards or whatever, trumpet …

Are you the main vocalist?

Main vocalist usually.

So it goes from a duo or a trio up to a six …

Whatever the money will pay

What’s your preference?

I like it all. I could’ve worked solo all that time but I much prefer to jam with other people.

And do you have to practise?

We’ve been at it so long, I say, “This is a new one”, and start playing, and these guys – the people I play with – can do it. And we only practice if there’s something really difficult or if someone else is involved who’s not up with the play.

So has it been a stable band all that time?

Yes, pretty much stable. People come and go, but “The Kawekas” virtually … with Tony, the bass player, who was our bass player in Homegrown, my first band here; and Richard Nicholson who’s the guitar player; and we’ve had various drummers – mainly a guy called Darryl Jones who’s now over in Wanganui, but he’ll come back for something special. But we have a big enough band, big enough group of people, that if the lead guitar player doesn’t want to play ‘

cause he’s got to go to his mother’s place, someone else’ll play … someone else who’s good will just come and play with no practice; same with the bass player and drummer, they just have to be able to do it.

And I suppose it’s the beauty of being in a place for … you know, making those contacts …

Yeah. Exactly.

So can you tell me about, you know, some of the gigs you play at, and how that comes about?

Well we’ve mainly played, back in the day, played pubs a lot and it paid well, but it doesn’t pay well now. I think people in the pubs are getting paid what we got paid thirty years ago; hasn’t changed, so you know …

That’d be tough.

That’s very tough, you know? Corporate do’s pay really well; big sort of weddings pay really well. But we’re not doing so many of them now, ‘specially [now] that Covid has struck down all of these big corporate events and corporate do’s. And say with weddings, we will be getting too long in the tooth for some weddings, you know, if people’ve been used to rap and stuff like that and they want that kind of music, they’ll have to get a DJ [disc jockey] to play it, ‘cause bands can’t usually play it – they can’t play a lot of them the newer music.

So what’s your sort of genre?

I like everything. I like rap, but I don’t play it. I like heavy metal but I don’t play it – there’s no money in it. But ‘cause we’ve been playing so long we can play all the Art Deco stuff, which has been knocked for three years in a row; three years in a row we’ve lost to covid, covid, floods. That’s wiped out the venues that we were …

You got to play at …

… But we’re booked again this year for February … bloody Art Deco

Well, fingers crossed it comes off next year.

You’re not kidding! but …

And you still do some weddings and corporate?

Yeah, if they want us to. I’m pretty busy anyway, musically; I do other things as well as play. I’ll do recording … see, I’ve got a recording studio here so I record.

What sort of things are you recording?

Anything that people want to buy. But nowadays I’ll only record people that are really interesting, or I really like. I’ve just had enough of spending weeks recording and editing stuff that’s awful. [Quiet chuckle]

Are you able to tell us more about, you know, what it’s like, or what that entails … recording and editing?

Well back in the day of course you had tape machines but now it’s all digital. And you know, I can record here or I can record live, you know … full bands and things like that.

In here?

I wouldn’t put a whole band in here – too loud. If I have to I’ve got other rooms … you can put the drummer and the bass player there, and somebody else there, and somebody else there, which is how it works in a big studio. They’ll have booths so that the drummer doesn’t drown out the rest of the band or things like that, when they’re recording. I think the last big recording I did was the band in a big space; the whole band was there, so it was just straight live, you know, but you don’t have to these days.

But if it’s sort of individual then you work together?

Very often we’ll just do the drums and bass, and whoever’s leading it can just sing and play. And then you’ve got the drums and bass, and the lead singer can just sing the rest over it and the guitar players can come in afterwards; and you can do it all not live. [Chuckle]

Yeah, it’s pretty amazing what you can do, isn’t it?

It is. It is.

How’s it been for you keeping up with all that sort of technology and changing …

Oh, I’ve had to, yes.

… with the times?

I’m pretty much on with the technology, but anything computer-ish – it’s a bit like medicine; you really can’t know it all and you don’t need to know it all. You know, a heart specialist doesn’t really need to know about sore toes.

So you focus on what you need to know?

You need to know what you need to know. You’ve got to keep up ‘cause things change, rapidly.

Yeah, ‘specially in this digital world.

Digital world – see I’ve got the big computer out there, pulled out of its box for a job. I can deal to computer things to; I can fix them and things like that, but I would hate to be a computer fixer.

Stick to music?

Yes. I will fix them for my friends, but it’s very stressful because you’re often dealing with people who are very stressed, you know? “I’ve lost everything! Oh no!”

Have you got into composing?

Yeah, constantly. I’ve always written – and write – probably a song a week anyway, now. Some of them go nowhere.

Do you record some as well?

Yep, I record them

And do you, you know, we used to have albums, that sort of thing, do you make albums?

Yes, yes. Although these days a lot of people are just recording the songs, ‘cause if people listen to Spotify and things like that on their computer to get their music, it’s just one song at a time. They don’t usually listen to a whole album so you can just do one song and get it out there.

And that’s what you’re doing?

Yeah.

Solo, or with some of your band?

Oh, I always play with other people, just ‘cause I like it.

So if someone was listening to this interview, where could they go to listen to some of your music?

They could go on Spotify or Apple Music and write “The Kawekas” and they’d find us.

‘Cause I think it might be really important for people to know. Scotty, I’m wondering if there’s anything else you can tell us about, like were your family of origin musical?

My mother played piano, and we would do a lot of singing at home. And we were always out doing musical stuff. My father was a good singer; I think guys that he worked with called him ‘Bing’.

Like Bing Crosby?

Yeah – I guess when they would sing as they worked. So music was just a normal part of life. They weren’t what you would call a musical family, you know, or professional musos, but that’s how it worked.

So more musical than other families that you knew? Or more into music than other families?

Probably, but it was just normal to me, so I probably wouldn’t’ve noticed.

And what about your son and daughter, have they …

They’re both keen.

… got into music?

But they’re not fully diseased. Yeah, no – they’re both great music lovers but not players. They can play, but they don’t go and do it for money.

And what about your wife, is she into music?

She loves music, but doesn’t play anything. And she has always been very supportive of me, wonderfully, because it’s difficult sometimes … if you’ve got two little kids and your husband’s out ‘til midnight three nights a week as well as working all day … you know?

I imagine you’d have got very tired?

Didn’t notice it.

Had the energy?

Yeah, I guess it doesn’t worry me much these days, you know? I probably get more tired. I don’t think I would be able to do some of the gigs we did – we played for seven hours, you know?

Gee, what sort of gigs would they be?

Big winery gigs and things like that. You just go and start at ten in the morning and play through the day. I suppose these days I’m a bit tired of where the job is to make people dance and jump around. I’d rather play the next song that I feel like playing.

So is that what you’re doing more ..?

Yeah, completely, yeah. I used to take up any chance; I’m not taking so many jobs at all these days, because I get my fill every Wednesday through lunchtime and the afternoon – I get together with about five other musicians at a place on the Taupo road and we play … jam. Just play music. And that sort of does the … there’s no money involved but it … [Cellphone rings]

So that gives you your weekly fill at least.

At least, yeah. And I was playing two nights last week, so that’s good.

At different venues?

At different venues, yeah.

Are these people asking you to play at venues?

Yes. On Thursday we were at The Cabana [Hotel], and had a good night.

So I’m just wondering, Scotty, if there’s anything more that you can tell us about your teaching or music career, or anything else that you think is really important in your life that I haven’t actually touched on?

I think there’s not much more that we can say. Apart from music I’m pretty interested in reading and things like that, and engineering things – you can see all the tools out there -, fixing things and making things. Building stuff.

And does retirement feature at all?

No, ‘cause I’ve just carried on doing what I always did, without being paid for a day job.

So it’s lifestyle?

Yeah.

And I guess it gives you a really good sense of purpose as well?

Yes. And these days [I] spend a lot of time exercising. Every day we go for about six or seven k [kilometres] walking up in the hills there for you know, [a] couple of hours; or bike for the same time … get on the bike and go for a couple of hours on the bike every morning.

Ordinary bike? E-bike?

Just an ordinary bike. No, no, no e-bikes as yet. If I couldn’t bike I would get an e-bike, but the point is exercise. I mean we see a lot of e-bikes, and they have a good time; gets them out and going. And we do a lot of biking round the country, and do a lot of tramping.

So have you been away on, you know, quite big trips either biking or tramping?

Yep, done a lot of tramping. There’s probably not many huts in the Ruahines and Kawekas that we haven’t been to at some stage. There’s a few that are beyond the ability now. I don’t think we could get five days worth of gear and go do that now … wouldn’t be able to take it, but we can still get a day or two in.

And an overnight?

Yes, you could. Sometimes we’re just as happy with a day.

So more local?

We don’t mind going anywhere. No climbing Mt Cook now. Too old …

Have you done that?

[Chuckle] No, we haven’t. No, we trained once to do a Southern Alps crossing at the Outdoor Pursuits Centre in Turangi, but never ended up doing it. Did all the abseiling and rope[s] and that kind of thing. No, somebody died so we couldn’t go, but we’ve been up on the Southern Alps.

So it sounds like you’ve done some pretty challenging …

Oh yeah, pretty challenging things.

… trips?

We’re past it now, but we can still get a challenge [chuckle] when you have to go up the hill and back down. I don’t think I could put a big pack on and do eleven or twelve hours straight, you know? Not these days.

That would be a challenge.

We’ve adapted though. Now we’ll stop every half hour, take the pack off, have a drink, carry on. And the same with biking; we’ve done you know, the Otago Rail Trail, and across the …

Alps to Ocean?

Yeah. Down the Pureora Forest, places like that. There’s not many; we’re really missing … the ride that went out to Puketapu and back down the other side.

Yeah, ‘cause that’s still closed from the cyclone, isn’t it?

It’s pretty washed out. No, it’ll take them a while to rebuild that.

And a lot of the tramping in the Kawekas and the Ruahines have closed at the moment?

It’s just opening up again now. You can get into Mokahu and you can get into the hot springs area, all these huts in there.

Oh, so you can go up there now?

You can get into the hot springs so you can get into all these huts in there – Middle Hill Hut and these. I might be wrong about Mokahu – about there, that road. You can get into Kuripapango off the Taihape Road and go up that way. There’s still plenty, you know, you can spend weeks in there if you wanted to.

Sounds like you lead a pretty active life?

Well, you have to when you get ancient. [Chuckle] You have to keep …

Keep moving …

Yes.

So anything else, Scotty, that you’d like to add?

I think we’ve done the deed. [Chuckle]

Okay. We’ll leave it here, and thank you – really appreciate it.