Royal Commission on Te Aute and Wanganui School Trusts
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SESSION II.
1906.
NEW ZEALAND.
TE AUTE AND WANGANUI SCHOOL TRUSTS
(REPORT AND EVIDENCE OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE).
Presented to both Houses of the General Assembly by Command of His Excellency.
COMMISSION.
PLUNKET, Governor.
Charles Cargill Kettle, of Auckland. Esquire, District Judge; Alexander Wilson Hogg, of Master- ton, Esquire, a member of the House of Representatives; Huntly John Harry Eliott, of Hutt, Esquire; Robert Lee, of Hutt, Esquire; and Apirana Turupa Ngata, of Port Awanui, Esquire, a member of the House of Representatives: Greeting.
WHEREAS by the Crown grants mentioned in the schedule hereto certain lands were granted to the persons therein named in trust for the use and towards the maintenance of the schools therein referred to: And whereas the lands were ceded to the Crown by the Native owners thereof so as to provide for a school to be maintained at Te Aute, in the district of Ahuriri, for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand, and for a school to be maintained in the district of Ahuriri aforesaid for the education of children of British subjects of both races in New Zealand: And whereas doubt has arisen as to whether the lands and the revenues derived therefrom have been so administered as to fulfil in the best manner the trusts thereof: And whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage: And whereas it seems expedient in maintaining a school or schools as aforesaid that adequate provision should be made for the manual and technical education of children of both races in New Zealand, and especially of Maori children: And whereas it is alleged that the provision hitherto made in that behalf is not adequate: And whereas it may be necessary in the next session of Parliament to provide for legislation concerning the trusts and matters aforesaid: And whereas it is expedient that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the present position of the trusts and trust estates created by the respective Crown grants mentioned in the schedule hereto and into the necessity or expediency of the proposed legislation with respect thereof:
Now, therefore, I, William Lee, Baron Plunket, the Governor of the Colony of New Zealand, in exercise of the powers conferred by “The Commissioners Act, 1903,” and of every other power and authority enabling me in this behalf, and acting by and with the advice and consent of the Executive Council of the said colony, do hereby constitute and appoint you, the said
CHARLES CARGILL KETTLE,
ALEXANDER WILSON HOGG,
HUNTLY JOHN HARRY ELIOTT,
ROBERT LEE, and
APIRANA TURUPA NGATA,
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to be a Commission for the purpose of making an inquiry into the present conditions of the trusts and trust estates created by the said Crown grants, including in the case of each trust estate the matters following, that is to say, –
(1.) Of what the trust estate now consists, distinguishing land from money.
(2.) The mode in which the land has been utilised and administered by the trustees: if leased – in what manner, at what rental; if sold – at what price; what accumulations have been made, and how they are invested.
(3.) The total receipts and disbursements for each year since the creation of the trust.
(4.) Whether the original trusts have been carried out, and what school or schools have been maintained, where situated, for whose benefit, and whether a school or schools have been established in the district of Ahuriri for the education of British subjects of both races in New Zealand; and, if not, what are the reasons for not carrying out the trusts in their entirety.
(5.) If they cannot be carried out in their entirety, what modification should be made in order to give effect to the original intention as far as practicable.
(6.) Whether the school or schools are so conducted as to give to the children contemplated in the trust the greatest benefit; especially whether there is sufficient provision for manual and technical education of the children of both races, and especially of Maoris; and whether agricultural classes could be established and practical farming be taught in connection with such schools.
(7.) What proportion of the revenue is paid on account of each school maintained under the trust, and to What purposes such moneys are applied in respect of each school.
And you are hereby enjoined to make such suggestions and recommendations as you may consider desirable or necessary with respect to the future administration and control of the said trust estates and for the better efficiency and usefulness of the school or schools maintained thereunder, and with respect to the necessity of legislation in the premises.
And with like advice and consent I do further appoint you, the said
CHARLES CARGILL KETTLE,
to be Chairman of the Commission.
And for the better enabling you, the said Commission, to carry out these presents into effect, you are hereby authorised and empowered to make and conduct any inquiry under these presents at such times and places in the said colony as you deem expedient, with power to adjourn from time to time, and from place to place, as you think fit; and to call before you and examine on oath or otherwise, as may be allowed by law, such person or persons as you think capable of affording you information in the premises: and you are also hereby empowered to call for and examine all such books, documents, papers, plans, maps, or records as you deem likely to afford you the fullest information on the subject-matter of this inquiry, and to inquire of and concerning the premises by all lawful ways and means whatsoever.
And, using all diligence, you are required to transmit to me, under your hands and seals, your report and recommendations in respect of the several matters inquired into by you not later than the 31st day of May, 1906, or such extended date as may be appointed in that behalf.
And it is Hereby declared that these presents shall continue in full force and virtue, although the inquiry be not regularly continued from time to time or from place to place by adjournment.
And lastly, it is hereby further declared that these presents are issued under and subject to the provisions of “The Commissioners Act, 1903.”
SCHEDULE OF CROWN GRANTS.
FIRSTLY, the Crown grant, dated the 10th day of June, 1857, of all that parcel of land in the district of Ahuriri, in the Province of Wellington, containing 1,745 acres, more or less, as more particularly described in the said grant.
Secondly, the Crown grant, dated the 10th day of June, 1857, of all that parcel of land in the Province of Wellington, containing 1,408 acres, more or less, situated in the district of Ahuriri, as more particularly described in the said grant.
Thirdly, the Clown grant, dated the 7th day of July, 1857, of all that parcel of land 1n the Province of Wellington, containing 4,244 acres, more or less, situated in the district of Ahuriri, as more particularly described in the said grant.
Fourthly, the Crown grant, dated the 28th day of November, 1866, of all that parcel of land in the Province of Hawke’s Bay, containing 382 acres, more or less, being section numbered 19R, situated at Te Aute, as more particularly described in the said grant.
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Given under the hand of His Excellency the Right Honourable William Lee, Baron Plunket, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty’s Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies, and issued under the Seal of the said colony, at the Government House, at Wellington, this thirtieth day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and six.
In Executive Council.
J. F. ANDREWS,
Acting Clerk of the Executive Council.
An enlargement of the above Commission, dated the 30th May, makes the following addition to the schedule: –
To wit, the Crown grant, dated the 13th day of October, 1852, of all that piece or parcel of land, situate and being at Wanganui, in the Provincial District of Wellington, containing 250 acres and 32 perches, more or less, as more particularly described in the said Crown grant.
The time for report was extended from time to time to the 27th June, 1906.
REPORT.
To His Excellency the Right Honourable William Lee, Baron Plunket, Knight Commander of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty’s Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies.
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY, –
We, the Commissioners appointed under Your Excellency’s Commission (issued under “The Commissioners Act, 1903,” 3 Edward VII), dated the 30th day of April, 1906, the scope and period for the return whereof were extended by enlargements dated the 13th day of May, the 14th and 22nd days of June, 1906, respectively, have the honour to submit our report on the educational endowment trusts at Te Aute and Wanganui, into the management and administration of which we have been directed to inquire, With such recommendations and suggestions as to the future administration and control of the said endowments, the better efficiency and usefulness of the schools maintained thereunder, and the necessity for legislation in the premises, as we consider desirable or necessary.
We held sittings (due notice thereof having been previously advertised) at Napier, Wellington and Wanganui, and we also visited and inspected the endowments and the schools and other buildings thereon. The notes of evidence and exhibits produced, therein referred to, are forwarded herewith. We have also had recourse to and have perused all the records (a schedule of which is also forwarded herewith) of previous Commissions and parliamentary Committees, and also the Hansard debates referred to in the said schedule, relating to the management and control of the endowments and schools.
THE TE AUTE EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS.
These endowments consist of 6,561 acres or thereabouts of magnificent and highly improved (partly agricultural and partly pastoral) lands situate in the Hawke’s Bay District, about thirty-two miles from Napier. The railway runs through the property, and there is a railway-station about a mile from the school. The schoolhouse and other buildings on the property are built of wood, and are, having regard to their age, in good repair. The endowments were granted by His Excellency the Governor of New Zealand to the Right Reverend George Augustus, Bishop of New
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Zealand, by four grants dated the 10th day of June, 1857, the 10th day of June, 1857; the 7th day of July, 1857; and the 28th day of November, 1866, upon the trusts therein declared. In two of the grants – viz., those dated the 10th June, 1857 – the trust is as follows: “Upon trust as an endowment for a school to be maintained at Te Aute, in the district of Ahuriri, for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand.” In the remaining grants – viz, those dated the 7th July, 1857, and the 28th November, 1866, the trust is in these words: “Upon trust as an endowment for a school to be maintained in the district of Ahuriri for the education of children of our subjects of both races.”
The lands included in the four grants form practically one block, the income from which has been applied towards the maintenance of a school (known as the Te Aute College) which has been built thereon, in which Maori boys and a few European boys from all parts of the colony have been and are being educated. As mentioned in the evidence and accounts, a portion of the income from the endowments is devoted to the maintenance of a school at Hukarere, in Napier, in which Maori girls are being educated. The land on which the Hukarere School is built formerly belonged to the first Bishop of Waiapu, who transferred the same, with the buildings thereon, to the trustees of the Te Aute endowments “upon trust as a site for a school to be maintained for the education of Native girls in connection with the Te Aute College trust, and for no other purpose.” (See declaration of trust, Exhibit No. 34.)
On the 13th May, 1862, the Bishop of New Zealand, in exercise of the power in that behalf given to him by “The Bishop of New Zealand Trusts Act, 1858,” No. 17, conveyed the Te Aute and other endowments to trustees appointed by the General Synod of the Church of England. As stated in the evidence, the trustees have on two occasions exchanged small portions of the endowments for other lands, and in our opinion such exchanges were most beneficial to the trust. The endowments (with the exception of the school grounds) are now held by the Venerable Archdeacon Williams under a lease for twelve years from August, 1903, at the annual rental of £2,200.
With regard to the recital in Your Excellency’s Commission, “And whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage,” we made a searching inquiry into the circumstances under which the various leases to the Venerable Archdeacon Williams were granted. It is true that the trustees did not call for tenders, but it has been established to our entire satisfaction that the estate has always been let to the best advantage, and in all the transactions between the Archdeacon and the trustees all parties were actuated by the sole desire to benefit the trust. The evidence which covers the period between the last inquiry and the present abundantly establishes that the endowments have been administered to the best advantage.
To put it concretely, the endowments are earning as much as possible, are leased to an excellent tenant, who takes a deep interest in the school, whose farming is of the highest quality, and who, when his lease expires, will doubtless leave the property in the highest condition for any system of settlement which may then be considered most remunerative. The trustees have, in our opinion, had the good fortune to secure in Archdeacon Williams, first a manager, and later a tenant, who has always been deeply interested in the welfare of the school, and pledged to see the objects of the trust fulfilled. The Archdeacon’s personal influence and control have, in our opinion, been exceedingly beneficial; and under the able management of Mr. Thornton, the headmaster, the school has flourished and borne good fruit. The best fruit of the Te Aute College is undoubtedly “The Young Maori Association,” which was founded by ex-pupils. At present this is the only association wholly devoted to the practical salvation of the Maori race.
The evidence shows that Archdeacon Williams admits that the flock of sheep (6,000-odd) on the estate when he first became tenant to the trustees belonged to the trust.
Subject to our recommendations, as hereafter set forth, we are of opinion that the lands, and the revenue derived there from, have, as far as practicable, been so administered as to substantially fulfil the trusts thereof.
Annual accounts (as set forth in the exhibits) of the receipts and disbursements have been rendered by the trustees to the General Synod, and some of the accounts have been laid on the table of the Legislative Council.
Recommendations.
We respectfully recommend, –
1. That the Te Aute Boys’ College and the Hukarere Girls’ School be maintained as secondary schools of the colony for Maoris, though not necessarily exclusive of pupils of European origin.
2. That, having regard to the circumstances of the Maoris, as owners of considerable areas of suitable agricultural and pastoral land, it is necessary to give prominence in the curriculum to. manual and technical instruction in agriculture.
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3. That, if for financial reasons it becomes necessary to choose between a course including Latin, geometry, and algebra in the higher forms, and scientific and technical subjects, preference be given to the latter.
4. That as soon as practicable the school buildings be reconstructed and reorganized in classrooms, lighting, seating, and educational equipment, &c.
5. That the school be inspected and reported on by the Education Department. (See sec. 91, subsecs. (1) and (2), of “The Education Act, 1904.”)
6. That the trustees be required, within three months after the receipt of a notice from the Hon. the Minister of Education so to do, to forward to the Hon. the Minister a copy of the scheme or regulations defining the curriculum and stating the provision made for pupils living away from home, and the provision made for the periodic examination of the pupils of such school. That if the scheme so forwarded is not, after conference between the trustees, the headmaster, and the Hon. The Minister, approved by the Hon. the Minister, or if the trustees fail to comply with such notice, the question or questions in dispute be referred to a Commission consisting of the Chancellor for the time being of the University of New Zealand, a person (not being an officer of the Education Department) appointed by the Governor, and a third person (not being one of the trustees) appointed in that behalf by the trustees. The determination of the Commissioners or any two of them (after hearing evidence) to be final and binding. The Commissioners to have all the powers of Commissioners appointed under “The Commissioners Act, 1903.”
7. That the number of trustees be five (if practicable one to be a Maori), appointed from time to time in the following manner: Two by the Mayors for the time being of Napier and Hastings, and the members of Parliament for Hawke’s Bay and Napier, acting jointly; and the remaining three by the General Synod. That the trustees be capable business men, and that at least three of them be persons who reside within fifty miles of Napier. The appointment of trustees to be gazetted, and advertised in the local papers.
8. That the trustees be required to keep, or cause to be kept, proper books of account, containing full, true, and particular accounts of all receipts and expenditure, assets, liabilities, &c.
9. That the accounts be audited at least once a year by a Government auditor.
10. That a banking (trust) account be kept at Napier, into which all moneys received be paid, and that all cheques be signed by at least two trustees, and countersigned by the secretary.
11. That the trustees should endeavour to meet at regular intervals at Napier to discuss matters relating to the trust, and that full minutes of the business transacted at such meetings be kept by the secretary, and signed by the chairman.
12. That within one month after the 31st March of every year an account giving full and true particulars of all receipts and expenditure, assets and liabilities, &c., up to the 31st March be made out, signed by the secretary and trustees, and audited, be forwarded to the Education Department, and published in the Inspector-General’s annual report to Parliament.
13. That all applications by parents or guardians for admission of children to the school be reported on by the headmaster, and submitted to the trustees, or any three of them, for approval or rejection.
14. That the parent or guardian whose application is rejected shall be entitled to have the decision of the trustees reviewed by the Hon. the Minister of Education, whose decision (after hearing evidence) shall be final.
15. That the trustees appoint all teachers.
16. That power be given to the trustees to borrow (subject to the approval of the Hon. the Minister of Education) money on security of the trust property, or any part thereof, or the income thereof, for the purpose of erecting or re-erecting necessary school buildings and additions thereto, or reading, subdividing, and improving the trust property.
17. That power be also given to the trustees to subdivide the endowment, lay out roads and streets, and dedicate same to the public.
18. That when practicable all leases of the trust property should be open to public competition by tender or auction.
19. That the trustees appoint a reliable person (not being one of the trustees) in Napier to act as their solicitor, secretary, and general agent, to prepare all necessary deeds and agreements, to keep the books of account and minute-book, to collect rents and other moneys, and generally attend to the business of the trust.
20. That the school buildings be inspected annually by the District Health Officer.|
21. That legislation be introduced to give full effect to these recommendations. That the religious instruction now given in the school-be continued; but the Bill to contain liberal conscience clauses similar to those in Mr. Bryce’s Bill of 1876, intituled “The Wanganui Endowed
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School Act, 1876,” clause 22, subclauses (2), (3), (4), (5), and (6); and Mr. Ballance’s Bill of 1879, intituled “The Wanganui Endowed School Act, 1879,” clause 31, subclauses (2), (3), (4), (5), and (6); and that the draft of such Bill be referred to the trustees for their consideration and remarks.
THE WANGANUI EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENT.
This endowment consists of 250 acres now in the Borough of Wanganui, formerly called Petre. (See Act of the Province of Wellington, 1854, Sess. I, No. 11, W.- 5, 17 Vict.) The history of this endowment is shortly as follows: In 1847 an Ordinance (see Domett’s “Ordinances of New Zea- land,” G. – 4) “for promoting the education of the youth of the Colony of New Zealand,” was passed in the Legislative Council. In 1852 the Governor-in-Chief, Sir George Grey, in consequence of a demand made by the people of the Wanganui district for a public school, instructed the Rev. Richard Taylor and Donald McLean to select about 200 acres of land as a site for an “industrial school.” They complied with His Excellency’s request, and forwarded a sketch, &c., of the land. (See correspondence, Parliamentary Paper D. – 15, 1866.) In September, 1852, His Excellency instructed the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Mr. F. D. Bell, to report on the proposal made by the Rev. Mr. Taylor and Mr. McLean re the establishment of an industrial school, and in his report of the 24th September, 1852, addressed to the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, Mr. Bell said (see D. – 15, 1866), “ The Governor having directed me to make inquiries at Wanganui as to the opinion the settlers might entertain of the scheme of an industrial school, I have further to state that I found on explaining His Excellency’s views to many persons a great desire to see the school established. Indeed, the most pressing want just now is that of education. Every one complains of the evils consequent on there being no good school there. The Roman Catholics, it is true, are making some efforts to provide instruction for the children, but their means are very limited, and the establishment of a good school on liberal principles as regards religious training would, I was assured by every one to whom I spoke on the subject, be hailed with the utmost satisfaction by the community.
On the 13th October, 1852, a grant (signed by Sir George Grey) of the land selected by the Rev. R. Taylor and Mr. McLean was made to the Right Rev. George Augustus, Bishop of New Zealand. The grant (Exhibit No. 45) was registered in the Deeds Office at Wellington. The grant recites that “Whereas a school is about to be established in Wanganui, in the Province of New Munster, New Zealand, under the superintendence of the Right Reverend George Augustus, Bishop of New Zealand, for the education of our children of all races and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands of the Pacific Ocean.” After describing the land granted, the trust under which the land was to be held is expressed in these words: “In trust nevertheless for the use and towards the maintenance of the said school so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to the youth educated therein or maintained thereat.”
During the debates (Hansard, Vol. 21, pp. 67 and 591; Vol. 32, p. 445; and Vol. 33, p. 383) on Bills relating to this endowment brought before Parliament by Mr. Bryce in 1876 and by Mr. Ballance in 1879, and in the evidence given by Sir George Grey before a Select Committee (see paliamentary [parliamentary] paper, Sess. II, I. – 4, 1879) on Mr. Ballance’s Bill, questions were raised as to Sir George Grey’s intentions in granting the endowment. We respectfully refer Your Excellency to those debates, and to Sir George Grey’s evidence.
On the 13th May, 1862, the Bishop, in exercise of the power in that behalf given to him by “The Bishop of New Zealand Trusts Act, 1858,” No. 17, conveyed the endowment to trustees appointed by the General Synod of the Church of England.
A number of old residents and others have in their evidence before us given a very complete history of the school from its infancy, and Your Excellency will, in the appendices hereto, find a mass of documentary evidence showing the progress the school (now known as the “Wanganui Collegiate School”) has made under the management of the Rev. Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Godwin, and Dr. Harvey. As shown in the evidence, the present headmaster, Mr. Empson, has devoted many years of his life to the work of mental and physical development of the students, and has also spent considerable sums of his own money in improving the school buildings, and in other directions. Under his able control and management the College is now in a flourishing condition, and occupies a prominent place in the foremost rank of secondary schools of the colony.
Subject to our recommendations and remarks, as hereafter set forth, we are of opinion that the endowment and the revenue derived therefrom have, as far as practicable, been so administered as to substantially fulfil the trusts thereof. Annual accounts, as set forth in the exhibits, of receipts and disbursements have been rendered by the trustees to the General Synod and Education
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Department. Portions of the endowment have been let on building and grazing leases. A list of tenants, and the rents payable by them, will be found amongst the exhibits.
We are of opinion that the income from the endowment would have been materially increased had the land been drained, roaded, and otherwise improved, and subdivided into suitable business and residential areas. Although the trustees have not been as active as, in our opinion, they should have been, it is only fair to point out that they have been much hampered in their operations in consequence of their not possessing the power to borrow money for building purposes, and the general development and improvement (subdivision, roading, &c.) of the endowment. Heretofore the income from the endowment has been absorbed in the upkeep of ‘the school buildings, payment of salaries (which we may mention in passing are somewhat inadequate), and other necessary working-expenses.
Recommendations.
We respectfully recommend, –
1. That the Wanganui Collegiate School be maintained as a secondary school for Europeans and Maoris.
2. That the hostel system of boarding be introduced.
3. That as soon as practicable the school buildings be reconstructed and reorganized in classrooms, lighting, seating, and educational equipment, &c.
4. That the school be inspected and reported on by the Education Department. (See sec. 91, subsecs. (1) and (2), of “The Education Act, 1904.”)
5. That the trustees shall, within three months after the receipt of a notice from the Hon. the Minister of Education so to do, forward to the Hon. the Minister a copy of the scheme or regulations defining the curriculum, and stating the provision made for pupils living away from home, and the provision made for the periodic examination of the pupils of such school. That if the scheme so forwarded is not, after conference between the trustees, the headmaster, and the Hon. the Minister,- approved by the Hon. the Minister, or if the trustees fail to comply with such notice, the question or questions in dispute shall be referred to a Commission consisting of the Chancellor for the time being of the University of New Zealand, a person (not being an officer of the Education Department) appointed by the Governor, and a third person (not being one of the trustees) appointed in that behalf by the trustees. The determination of the Commissioners, or any two of them (after hearing evidence), to be final and binding. The Commissioners to have all the powers of Commissioners appointed under “The Commissioners Act, 1903.”
6. That the number of trustees be five, appointed from time to time in the following manner: Two by the Mayor and Councillors for the time being of Wanganui, and the remaining three by the General Synod. That the trustees be capable business men, and that at least three of them be persons who reside Within fifty miles of Wanganui. The appointment or trustees to be gazetted, and advertised in the local papers.
7. That the trustees be required to keep, or cause to be kept, proper books of account, containing full, true, and particular accounts of all receipts and expenditure, assets, liabilities, &c.
8. That the accounts be audited at least once a year by a Government auditor.
9. That a banking (trust) account he kept at Wanganui, into which all moneys received be paid, and that all cheques be signed by at least two trustees, and countersigned by the secretary.
10. That the trustees endeavour to meet at regular intervals at Wanganui to discuss matters relating to the trust, and that full minutes of the business transacted at such meetings be kept by the secretary, and signed by the chairman.
11. That within one month after the 31st March of every year an account giving full and true particulars of all receipts and expenditure, assets and liabilities, &c, up to the 31st March be made out, signed by the secretary and trustees, audited, forwarded to the Education Department, and published in the Inspector-General’s annual report to Parliament.
12. That all applications by parents or guardians for admission of children to the school be reported on by the headmaster and submitted to the trustees, or any three of them, for approval or rejection.
13. That the parent or guardian whose application is rejected shall be entitled to have the decision of the trustees reviewed by the Hon. the Minister of Education, whose decision (after hearing evidence) shall be final.
14. That the trustees appoint all teachers.
15. That power be given to the trustees to borrow (subject to the approval of the Hon. the Minister of Education) money on security of the trust property, or any part thereof, or the income
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thereof, for the purpose of erecting or re-erecting necessary school- buildings and additions thereto, or reading, subdividing, and improving the trust property.
16. That power be also given to the trustees to subdivide the endowment, lay out roads and streets, and dedicate same to the public.
17. That when practicable all leases of the trust property be open to public competition by tender or auction.
18. That the trustees appoint a reliable person (not being one of the trustees) in Wanganui to act as their solicitor, secretary, and general agent, to prepare all necessary deeds and agreements, to keep the books of account and minute-book, to collect rents and other moneys, and generally attend to the business of the trust.
19. That the school buildings be inspected annually by the District Health Officer.
20. That legislation be introduced to give full effect to these recommendations. That the religious instruction now being given at the school be continued; but the Bill to contain liberal conscience clauses similar to those in Mr. Bryce’s Bill of 1876, intituled “ The Wanganui Endowed School Act, 1876,” clause 22, subclauses (2), (3), (4), (5), and (6); and Mr. Ballance’s Bill of 1879, intituled “The Wanganui Endowed School Act, 1879,” clause 31, subclauses (2),,(3)’ (4), (5), and (6); and that the draft Bill be referred to the trustees for their consideration and report.
21. That the Inspector-General’s proposals as to the establishment of a high school on the endowment (see his evidence) receive favourable consideration in the interests of free education.
We now return to Your Excellency the Commissions and extensions thereof with which you honoured us.
In witness whereof we have here unto set our hands this twenty-third day of June, one thousand nine hundred and six.
CHAS. C. KETTLE, Chairman.
A. W. HOGG
ROBERT LEE.
H. J. H. ELIOTT.
APIRANA T. NGATA.
INDEX TO EVIDENCE.
TE AUTE NATIVE ENDOWMENT TRUST.
Page
Baker, Horace 51
Bird, William Watson 93
Buck, Peter Henry 106
Campbell, Hugh 68
Coleman, James Henry 48
Coutts, Hugh John Clarke 49
Dillon, Alfred 47
Donnelly, George Prior 43
Ellison, Jun, David 68
Fancourt, Thomas 118
Fielder, James Beckett 8, 27, 31
Gold Smith [Goldsmith], Eric Charles 53
Hall, Thomas 31
Hogben, George 82, 85, 99, 104
Hutana, Ihaia 57
Kensington, William Charles 104
Kirk, Harry Borrer 100
Kohere, Reweti 71
MacMurray, George 27
Ngata, Paratene 69
O’Neill, Felix Theophilus 82
Pope, James Henry 75
Priest, George 64
Russell, William Russell 45
Thornton, John 32
Te Kaho, Te Kereama 55
Tomoana, Paraire 62
Te Uamairangi, Peni 60
Whearo [Wheraro], Pera 58
Williams, James Nelson 68
Williams, Samuel 13, 20, 48, 54, 120
Williams, William Leonard 1
WANGANUI INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL TRUST.
Anson, George Edwin 116
Batham, James Meacham 108
Beckett, Reginald Edward 148
Bignell, Arthur Gorbell 143
Bryce, John 139
Christie, Joseph McNaughton 156
Empson, Walker 152
Fancourt, Thomas 118
Field, Henry Claylands 124, 164
Flanagan, Frederick William 119
Gilmour, Andrew 148
Gualter, Aubrey 119
Hadfield, Ernest Frederick 115
Heke, Hone 165
Hogben, George 114, 169
Kingi, Hoani Mete 163
Kingi, Takarangi Mete 157
Liffiton, Edward Nolloth 131, 143
MacKay, Charles Evan 120, 157
MacLean, Thomas Billington 158
Makgill, Robert Holden 147
Morgan, John 127, 128
Murray, David 157
O’Neill, Felix Theophilus 107
Quick, William Henry 113
Ryburn, Robert Middleton 164
Wallis, John David 107
Watt, John Paton 157
Williams, Alfred Owen 165
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
NAPIER, MONDAY, 14TH MAY, 1906.
WILLIAM LEONARD WILLIAMS examined.
1. The Chairman (Mr. District Judge Kettle).] You are Bishop of the Diocese of Waiapu? – Yes.
2. You are also a trustee of this trust property? – Yes.
3. When did you first become a trustee? – I have not the exact date, but it was a little more than eleven years ago – in 1895.
4. You were appointed, I suppose, by the General Synod? – Under the authority of the General Synod.
5. Who are your co-trustees at the present time? – They are Sir W. R. Russell, Mr. J. H. Coleman, Mr. J. B. Fielder, and Mr. J. N. Williams.
6. Do the trustees hold meetings? – Yes, from time to time as the case requires.
7. Have you a secretary? – Mr. Fielder, one of the trustees, acts as secretary.
8. In whose custody are the deeds and documents? – At the present time they are in the custody of Mr. Fielder.
9. Do the trustees take any direct part in the financial branch of the trust? – In the detailed distribution of the funds, no.
10. You have no banking account or anything of that sort? – No.
11. And no books of accounts? – No.
12. Can you say what revenue is derived from the trust property? – The revenue at the present time is £2,200 per annum.
13. How is that made up? – It is rent of the estate.
14. The estate is now held under lease, and if so, by whom? – By Archdeacon S. Williams.
15. You say that the trustees take no part whatever in the financial portion of the business? – That is so.
16. Who receives the rent? – I may say it is not paid over at all. It is accounted for, because the Archdeacon has the general management of the school.
17. He is the tenant of the trustees, and also has the general management of the school? – Yes and has had it ever since the inception of the trust.
18. So that all the accounts and books and matters relating to the financial arrangements of the trust will be in his hands? – Yes.
19. And it will be from him we must get any information in regard to that branch of our inquiry? – Yes.
20. In whose hands is the educational part of the business? – In the hands of headmaster, Mr. John Thornton.
21. Do the trustees take any part in that branch of the trust? – They have not had occasion to interfere since I have been a trustee, at all events.
22. It is left entirely in the hands of the Archdeacon and Mr. Thornton? – Yes.
23. And the trustees have never interfered in the policy that has been pursued by them in regard to the system of education? – No. They have a general understanding about it, but they have not interfered in the details at all.
24. The system of education carried on in the College has your approval? – Yes.
25. The trustees know the system and approve of the system? – Yes.
26. I suppose the trustees are quite prepared to fall in with any improvements in the system suggested by the Education Department? – I think they are quite prepared to fall in with anything that the funds at our disposal will admit of.
27. On the question of funds, what money does the Government contribute towards the funds of the institution? – I have not the exact amount. They do contribute something – that is to say, they support a number of scholars.
28. And up to 1859 they gave something like £200 a year? – I am not prepared to say what the exact amount was. It was something like that.
29. You can say generally that the Government have assisted from time to time by annual grants? – Yes, in support of a certain number of scholars they send.
30. Has the trust established any other school out of the funds? – It is not correct perhaps to put it in that way, but the Girls’ School at Hukarere, Napier, which was started as a private venture originally, has been incorporated in the Te Aute trust by Act of Parliament.
31. I understand that the land on which that school is erected was given to the trust? – Yes, it is an accretion to the trust.
32. Who gave that land? – It was set apart for a school by the first Bishop of Waiapu, Bishop Williams. The school was started as an independent school by the Bishop, and afterwards, a few years ago, it was handed over to the Te Aute trust as a free gift.
33. Unencumbered? – Yes.
34. What is the area of the land? – It is a very small piece of land – a little more than an acre.
35. I suppose there was a school building on the land? – Yes.
36. And it was handed over to the Te Aute trust as a going concern for Native girls? – Yes
37. And since then that school has been carried on partly out of the funds of what we may call the Te Aute property? – Yes; about £900 a year has been devoted to it.
38. Who has the management of this Girls’ School? – Miss Williams.
1 – G.5.
G. – 5. 2 [W.L. WILLIAMS.
39. So that school is managed altogether apart from the Te Aute College? – Yes.
40. Who pays over the contribution from the Te Aute funds to that school? – It is paid direct by Archdeacon Williams.
41. And the books of accounts will show that? – Yes.
42. Is that the only school which benefits from the Te Aute trust, outside the Te Aute College? – Yes.
43. And the system of education in that school is entirely in the hands of the lady principal? – Yes, Miss Williams has the general superintendence of it.
44. And the trustees have a supervising jurisdiction or control – they know what is going on? – Yes.
45. And they approve of the teaching, and so forth? – Yes. I may say that the school is examined by the Native School Inspector regularly, and is reported upon in the Education Report.
46. With regard to accounts, I understand the accounts have been sent in annually to the Diocesan Synod, and trienially [triennially] to the General Synod? – Yes.
47. These accounts are audited in the ordinary way? – Yes.
48. And submitted to the trustees? – Yes.
49. And they examine them? – Yes.
50. And that has been done regularly ever since the inception of the trust? – Since my time. I cannot say from the inception of the trust, but it is the ordinary course followed.
51. With regard to the leasing, what is the lease now in existence? – The leases will be produced by Mr. Fielder.
52. Speaking generally? – The present lease is for twelve years.
53. When was it executed? – I think about two years ago.
54. That is the lease under which the £2,200 is paid? – Yes.
55. I believe there are certain exceptions – that the college buildings, and residence, and other buildings are excluded from the lease? – Yes. I think there are about 100 acres.
56. You have heard the Commission read. Somebody has alleged – it does not say who – that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage. Now, prior to this existing lease, what lease was there in existence? – There was a previous lease. I am not prepared to say what the terms of it were exactly.
57. Was the existing lease offered by public auction or by tender? – No, it was not.
58. The Archdeacon had been in possession of the estate for many, many years before? – Yes.
59. And the trustees considered he was entitled to some consideration in the renewal of the lease? – I think I may say that the trustees considered it was the best thing to continue that arrangement, but they made all inquiries as to the value of the property.
60. You thought that it was desirable to continue the Archdeacon in possession as he had been for many years in possession of the estate? – Yes, it was considered rather to the advantage of the institution that he should continue.
61. Before entering into that lease, did you take any steps to have a valuation made to satisfy you that the rental offered was a fair one? – Yes, a professional man was instructed to value it.
62. Who was that? – Mr. Horace Baker.
63. Is he a reliable and competent valuer? – Yes, I think so. He is considered so.
64. Did he report to the trustees in writing before the lease was agreed upon? – Yes. [Exhibit No. 13.]
65. And his report will be forthcoming when Mr. Fielder is present? – Yes.
66. Did the trustees carefully consider the question of rent when the lease was granted? – Yes.
67. Did they consider the rent of £2,200 a year was a fair one? – Yes. I may say they considered the land-tax valuation too. They considered that was a fair rent. It was not a rent offered by the Archdeacon. The rent was fixed by the trustees.
68. You asked more rent than he offered? – Yes.
69. How much more? – It may be the £200 a year. I forget the amount.
70. However, you asked a little more than he offered, and he conceded the demand? – Yes. I may say in explanation that he did not make any direct offer, but that the trustees were asking more than the sum placed upon it by Mr. Baker.
71. Now, in granting that lease, I suppose you were all actuated by a desire to see the estate yield the best rent, looking to the whole of the surroundings and circumstances? – Yes. I may say I did not personally take any part in the arrangement, though I approved of it. I did not oppose it. I considered that it was the best thing for the estate that the Archdeacon should be continued on the estate.
72. I suppose if he had not got a renewal he would have had to go, and you thought it was desirable that his presence and influence and personality should be continued on the estate? – Yes.
73. You are satisfied, looking at the whole of the surroundings and at the history of this trust, that it was the best thing which could be done for the trust? – Yes, that is my opinion.
74. I suppose Mr. Fielder will be able to tell us all about the rent which was paid previous to this lease? – Yes.
75. You had nothing to do with any of the previous leases? – No.
76. Now, there was an exchange made: do you know why the exchange was made? – It was made for the convenience of both parties really.
77. It was mutually beneficial? – Yes. There had been more than one exchange. There was an exchange many years ago between the estate and Mr. Stokes, the holder of the adjoining land, to accommodate the boundary between the two estates.
78. Had you any opinion as to the value of the property you were taking in exchange? – We had it valued by Mr. Baker.
79. Did he advise you that the exchange was beneficial to the trust, and a fair arrangement? – Yes.
W.L. WILLIAMS.] 3 G. – 5.
80. And that was carried out by deed, duly registered? – Yes.
81. Have the trustees ever had any complaints from any person, Native or European, as to the administration of the trust? – No, nothing more than a little correspondence between the trustees and the Department on the subject of technical education.
82. But nothing as to the administration, no charges of breach of trust or misconduct? – I know of none.
83. Is the trust estate now free from obligations of any kind, either legal or moral? Is there anything owing to anybody by the estate? – Not that I am aware of.
84. I suppose the estate now consists of the lands mentioned in these grants, subject to the exchanges spoken of? – Yes, and the Hukarere trust.
85. These are the freeholds which the trust possesses? – Yes.
86. Is there any surplus income invested, or anything of that kind? – I think not.
87. The income, then, is expended from year to year as it comes in in carrying on these schools? – Yes.
88. I suppose all the buildings on the property belong to the trust? – All the buildings that really belong to the school are the property of the trust, but in a previous lease the Archdeacon was entitled to erect further buildings if he liked, with the option of removing them at the end of the lease.
89. He resides on the estate? – Yes.
90. And the building he resides in belongs to the trust now? – I think it does; part of it, at all events. I am not quite sure.
91. Are there any stock or implements belonging to the trust apart from the land? – I think the stock belongs to the Archdeacon. It is the land alone that belongs to the trust. I have no knowledge of the details. Information in regard to that can be got from the Archdeacon.
92. There was stock originally on the land belonging to the trust, bought with money – £500, advanced by the Government? – I know nothing about that.
93. I am reading from the records? – The Archdeacon will be able to give you all information about that.
94. There are no accumulations of income? – There is no great accumulation, at all events. There may be a balance at the bank.
95. To put it shortly, the Archdeacon seems to have been a sort of agent authorised by the trustees to look after the whole thing? – Yes; from the previous trustees he had a power of attorney to act on their behalf. He has continued to act in the same way.
96. The trustees exercising a supervising control over everything? – Yes.
97. And he is trusted by them to do what is right in the matters of the trust, the trustees exercising, and claiming to exercise, a supervising jurisdiction over him? – Yes. I may say the trustees had good reason to have confidence in his management of the estate.
98. Now, the College itself has grown and developed into an important institution under his management and the management of the trustees? – Yes.
99. And is a well-known institution, I suppose, all over the colony? – Yes.
100. In fact, you meet with successful Te Aute boys everywhere? – Yes.
101. That state of things is the growth of years? – Yes.
102. As regards the system of education, on looking through the papers, there appears to be some slight difference of opinion as to whether technical education should be more encouraged in this school: what have you to say to that? – The trustees have expressed their readiness to the Department to make a little change in that way, and to do a little more. There has been for years past a certain amount of technical education. I think Mr. Ngata knows. There is a carpenter’s shop and tools.
103. Talking generally, I suppose the trustees are quite prepared to go with the altered times, and if technical education be the order of the day they are quite willing to fall in with that, and meet the wishes of the Government? – Yes, as far as the means at their disposal will allow.
104. I understand reports are sent in to the Diocese of Waiapu by the trustees annually? – Yes.
105. Some of them have been handed to me by Mr. Fielder, and from the report for 1901 [Exhibit No. 1], which is signed by Mr. Thornton, headmaster, I quote this extract: “Technical Education: The Inspector reports, ‘The seniors do a satisfactory amount of technical work. The carpentry-book is an interesting record. Entries show that all-round teaching is given – e.g., “Two boys sharpened a plane beautifully to-day,” and again, “The dovetailing takes a great deal of time, and when a false cut has been made the whole work has to be done again.” Sidelights of this kind are valuable to one who wishes to form a correct estimate of the character of the work done.’ ” That is the report of Mr. Pope? – Yes.
106. The report continues, “The whole subject of technical education has received the earnest attention of the trustees during the year just closed, in connection with a proposal from the Education Department to widen the field of industrial work at Te Aute. Seeing that the question has been taken up in Parliament, the trustees have thought it wise, for the present at least, to delay definite action; meantime the ordinary technical work at the College goes on as usual.” Does that fairly describe the feeling of the trustees with regard to technical education? – Yes.
107. The last report I have here is for 1904 [Exhibit No. 2], and from it I quote this: “Technical Education: This important subject, which has been under consideration for some years past, seems now at length to be nearing a practical issue. The whole question was reopened in 1903, with the result that complete accord has been established between the Government and the trustees, and it now only remains for the Government to give effect to its own proposals.” Do you know what these proposals were? – The Department had proposed that each of the boys should have four hours a week technical instruction, and the trustees suggested two hours and a, half, I think, and the Department agreed to that.
G. – 5. 4 [W. L. WILLIAMS.
108. The report concludes: “The latest official communication encourages us to hope that this will shortly be done.” So, apparently, the trustees and the Government are fairly at one in regard to the question of technical education? – Y es, at that time we were.
109. Do you know what is Mr. Thornton’s opinion about technical education? Do you know whether he is opposed to it? – I do not think he is opposed to it. He is jealous of its encroaching much upon the other work. He thinks the ordinary subjects of instruction are of very great importance.
110. Of more importance than technical education? – Yes. I think he would be sorry to see very much time taken up with technical education to the detriment of other work. I think that is his opinion.
111. I suppose, as headmaster, he has to manage the school on the lines laid out by the trustees and the Education Department? – So far as I know the trustees have not definitely laid down lines, but have accepted the position as it is, especially as it seems to have satisfied the Government Inspectors.
112. Of course, Mr. Thornton’s position is simply that of teacher he has to teach what he is told to teach. I suppose he has no right to mould the policy with regard to what teaching he is to give? – That is his position.
113. With regard to the exchange of land, the exchange was sanctioned by the General Synod, and also by the diocese? – Yes. If you want to sell any properties held by the General Synod, the matter must be recommended by the diocese first, and then it comes before the General Synod nothing could be done without the sanction of the General Synod.
114. I understand the committee of the Diocese of Waiapu took evidence in regard to this exchange and reported to the General Synod, and the General Synod adopted their report? – Yes, they accepted it.
115. I find this reference to the Diocese of Waiapu at page 113 of the “Proceedings of the Sixteenth General Synod 1904”: “Your committee have considered the reports and accounts of the Te Aute trust and the Waerenga-a-Hika Native School trust, and have found them to be entirely satisfactory. The Synod will be pleased to learn that the Government Inspector’s reports continue to be uniformly favourable. His opinion is that the last examination of the boys at Te Aute College has been the most successful ever held there; also that the results of inspection of the Hukarere Native Girls’ School are decidedly favourable, and that there has been a distinct improvement in the Waerenga-a-Hika Native School. The report of the Hukarere School shows that considerable additions and improvements have been made to the buildings and grounds, which enable the work of the establishment to be carried on with greater efficiency the report.
116. We have got it in evidence that these two sections on which the Hukarere School is built were given by the late Bishop to this trust. Do you know whether any person has given any money or spent any money on the trust property? – The building originally at Hukarere was erected by private money.
117. Was it subscribed? – Yes, and a great deal has been spent upon it by Archdeacon Williams, as well as upon the Te Aute Estate.
118. Do you know to what extent? – I cannot say.
119. I suppose these moneys have been given? – They have been practically given. I do not know that much account has been taken of them generally. I may say that the improvements in the buildings and grounds at Hukarere, to which reference is made, were done by him out of his own private moneys.
120. Mr. Hogg.] You say you had a valuation made by Mr Horace Baker before leasing the land, and that you also took into consideration the land- tax valuation? – Yes
121. Did you consider at the same time whether it was possible to cut up the property? – We did not take that into consideration.
122. Can you say whether there was any active demand for land in the neighbourhood? – Well, I do not think we went into that question at all.
123. You cannot tell me, I suppose, what is the size of the holdings adjacent to and in the neighbourhood of this land? – No.
124. Do you know whether an area of 7,000 acres is in excess of the usual run of holdings in that locality? – I do not know what many of the holdings are, but one large estate adjoining Te Aute was cut up. That is what is now called the Argyll Settlement. A great deal of it is on the Ruataniwha Plain, to the west of the College estate.
125. From your knowledge of the property, do you think it is suitable for subdivision? – I am not sufficiently acquainted with it to give an opinion. The greater portion of it is very hilly.
126. You are not able to say whether it would be likely to produce more revenue if cut up into a number of farms? – No.
127. Can you give us anything like an idea of the number of people who live on this estate? – I am afraid I cannot.
128. I think you said the size of the estate is 7,000 acres? – It is about 7,000 acres.
129. Does the lessee reside on it? – Yes.
130. Do the trustees take an active interest in the school itself? Do they visit it and inspect it? – They do not formally inspect it. I myself have visited it from time to time.
131. They have nothing to do with they management of institution and the payment of accounts, and so on? – No.
132. They simply receive the balance-sheet every year? – Yes.
133. Then, they do not really exercise any active control over the institution at all? – No.
134. Supposing the headmaster wanted an increase of pay or wished to improve his staff, would he submit his application to the trustees or simply to Archdeacon Williams? – He would submit it to Archdeacon Williams, I think.
W. L. WILLIAMS.] 5 G. – 5.
135. And he would have full authority to do as he thought proper? – Yes.
136. With regard to the scholars who have attended this school, have the trustees or have you watched their career after they left to see whether their education has been of material advantage to them? – I do not think the trustees generally have watched them. They come from all parts of the colony, you see. We know some of them, but we cannot keep count of the great number of them, because some come from the extreme north and from the extreme south. Formerly we had one from the Chatham Islands.
137. From your own knowledge you are not able to give any individual illustrations of pupils who have succeeded in after-life after finishing their education at the College? – There is one sitting before you, Mr. Ngata.
138. I mean, beyond Mr. Ngata? – There are several others. Dr. Pomare is another. There is also Peter Buck, who passed his medical examinations in Dunedin not long ago. The Rev. Mr. Hawkins, at Auckland, is another, and there is a medical student now at Dunedin, Tutere Wi Repa. There is another as assistant at the Theological College at Te Rau, Gisborne. He went for some time to the Canterbury College, but he did not take his degree.
139. What is about the average number who attend Te Aute College? – I think the number at present is eighty.
140. But outside those who have qualified in the learned professions, do you know of any who in commercial life have been successful? – No, I cannot say I do.
141. Mr. Lee.] May I ask what Archdeacon Williams has done for To Aute out of his own means? – I cannot tell you.
142. Has he put up any particular buildings or done any special work? – His great outlay was in the improvement of the property.
143. In what way? – In bringing it into productive condition.
144. By paying wages and that sort of thing? – Yes, and spending a great deal of money on fencing and improving the property generally.
145. You mean generally that he has spent more money than he has accounted for in his balance-sheets? – Yes.
146. Is any portion of the income of £2,200 diverted to any other purpose than the maintenance of the schools and the upkeep of the property? – No.
147. You did not consider the cutting-up of the property when you re-leased it, but did it not occur to you to call for tenders when letting such a large property as that? – No. In our opinion we considered it better to do as we did.
148. Of course, you knew and trusted Archdeacon Williams, and thought he would be the best tenant? – Yes.
149. You say you asked Mr. Horace Baker to give you an estimate of what would be a fair rent: was any other gentleman’s estimate of the value of the property taken into consideration? – No, I think not.
150. You depended largely on Mr. Horace Baker? – Yes.
151. Mr. Eliott.] Can you tell us whether any leases at any time were offered by public auction or tender, or, in granting the last lease, were you just following the usual practice? – I am not aware of any leases being advertised. I have only been connected with the trust for the last eleven years, and this is the only lease that has been negotiated within that time.
152. You spoke of a power of attorney to Archdeacon Williams: is that still in force, or has it been revoked by the present trustees? – It has not been revoked.
153. He can act under that power of attorney? – Yes.
154. In regard to the moneys that have been advanced by Archdeacon Williams outside of the receipts, do the trustees look on these as a free gift, or are they a charge on the property? – They were free gifts.
155. I would like your opinion as a guide in reference to paragraph No. 6 of our order of reference, as to “whether the school or schools are so conducted as to give to the children contemplated in the trust the greatest benefit”? – I think they are so conducted as to give them as much benefit as we can.
156. And “especially whether there is sufficient provision for manual and technical education of the children of both races”? – In my opinion; I think so.
157. Would it be possible to form agricultural classes as well as technical classes? – Well, the trustees have not thought agricultural classes advisable. The parents of the children rather object to very much of that kind of work.
158. But the trustees would be in favour of it? – We rather consider the opinion of the parents in the matter.
159. The Chairman.] I suppose the wishes of the parents of the children are entitled to be considered, whether they want their boy to be made a farmer, or a lawyer, or a member of Parliament? – I think so. They manage their agricultural operations very well in most parts of the country.
160. I suppose if agriculture could be taught at the institution it might be of advantage to the rising generation? – To a certain extent, perhaps.
161. Anything that would tend to promote the welfare of these people? – Other branches of technical education probably would be more valuable to them than agriculture.
162. There is one question I omitted to ask. Two of the grants are for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants, and the other two are for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants and the Europeans, but I understand the whole of the trust has been worked as one? – Yes; it has always been worked as one.
163. So you allow European boys to go to the school just the same as Maoris? – Yes. There are some European boys there now.
164. Do they pay school fees? – Some of them do.
165. And as regards the Maori? – They do not pay fees generally. They are free. Of course, the Government scholars come with Government assistance.
G. – 5. 6 [W. L. WILLIAMS.
166. And the Girls’ School is on the same lines? – Yes. If we get a half-caste whose parents we in a position to pay, they are expected to pay.
167. But there is no rule? – No definite rule.
168. Does the Wanganui Collegiate School take the aboriginal inhabitants ; can they go to that school? – I believe they can. .
169. Mr. Ngata.] Do the authorities ever advertise in the way of pointing out to the people of both races the benefits of the institution, and that it exists for the benefit of both races, or is that generally known? – I think it is generally known. The trustees never advertise it.
170. The Chairman.] Is there an Old Boys’ Association? – Yes. Associations? – They have annual meetings, and papers are read, and these are published afterwards.
171. Have they started a journal such as is issued by the Nelson and Wanganui Old Boys’ Associations? – They have annual meetings, and papers are read, and these are published afterwards
172. There is no special publicity given to the school by advertisement? – No
173. Mr. Ngata.] What is your opinion in regard to the allegation published in one of the papers that the fact of the school being open to the children of both races is not generally known? – The children of both races do attend.
174. But the fact is not very prominently brought forward? – We have always considered hat the trust was intended mainly for the Natives. It is the same with a number of other trusts, in which clauses were inserted specifying that they are for the benefit of the children of both races of His Majesty’s subjects in New Zealand, and of children of destitute parents in the Pacific islands.
175. With regard to manual and technical education, I think you have had opportunities of hearing expressions of opinions from old students on the question, having attended the conferences of the Te Aute Students’ Association? – I have not attended many, because I had not the opportunity.
176. But I think you have heard expressions of opinion from old students on the subject? – I do not think I have. I do not know what their opinion is.
177. The Chairman.] I suppose you agree that it is advisable that the benefits to be derived from the College should be advertised as publicly as possible? – There is no objection to it.
178. There was no objection from the Natives in regard to the amalgamation of these grants? – I never heard of’ any.
179. Did you ever hear any objections from Europeans? – No.
180. Or to the trusts being worked as one concern? – I never heard of any.
181. I suppose there is no doubt it is more efficiently worked as one concern than it could be if divided into an English school and a Maori school? – Yes.
182. However, Mr. Thornton will be able to give us full particulars of that? – Yes.
THURSDAY 17TH MAY, 1906.
The Chairman: Before proceeding with the taking of evidence, I wish to know if the Natives desire to appear before the Commission?
Mr. I. Hutana: I wish to represent the Natives before this Commission.
The Chairman: I would like to know, Mr. Bird, if you have anything further to say with regard to your position before the Commission?
Mr. Bird: I only wish to say, sir, that the head of the Education Department has instructed me by telegram to the effect that he approves of the position I have taken up. The view of the Department as expressed by him is that the Education Department has nothing whatever to do with the issuing of Royal Commissions. A Royal Commission is issued by the Governor on the advice of the Cabinet. It is not competent for the Education Department to in any way direct the proceedings of a Royal Commission. The connection of the Education Department with the Te Aute trust has been confined, as I have said before, merely to giving expert advice in regard to the subjects of school instruction. It has been a condition on which the scholarships are given to boys attending Te Aute and to girls attending Hukarere that the schools shall be open to inspection and examination by Government officers. I might say that the trusts were given in charge of the trustees long before the birth of the Education Department.
The Chairman: All I want to know is whether you represent the Department here this morning, or whether you simply adhere to the position as defined by you yesterday. Mr. Bird: I take up the same position as yesterday.
The Chairman: As there appears to be some misapprehension as to the position taken up by the Commission in regard to the Education Department, I wish, for the information of the members of the Commission, to refer to the correspondence which has taken place between the Commission and the Department on the subject. First of all, a telegram was sent on the 10th May to the Native Department, asking the Under-Secretary to intimate whether the Department wished to be represented before the Commission, and we said the Commission would be glad to see the presence of its representative at the meeting to be held, that day. I will read now the telegrams we sent and the replies received. On the 10th May this telegram was sent: –
“The Under-Secretary, Education, Wellington. – At its meeting here to-day the Te Aute Commission determined that Education Department ought to be represented before the Commission during its proceedings [proceedings], and will expect a representative at its next meeting here on Monday next.”
7 G. – 5.
Then on the 12th May this was sent: –
“Sir E. O. Gibbes, Education Department, Wellington. – Commission recites, “And whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage.’ Please supply Commission with names of persons who have so alleged, in order that they may be subpoenaed as witnesses.”
Then we sent this on the 14th May: –
“Education, Wellington. – Mr. Bird informs Commission he has no instructions to call and examine and cross-examine witnesses on behalf of Department, and only attends to give evidence if required as to system of education, and to assist Commission by‘ producing files of official documents, &c. Commissioners think it desirable that Mr. Bird or other representative of Department should be instructed to lead evidence and cross-examine witnesses, especially on allegation against trustees as to not letting property to best advantage.”
Then the reply of the Department as to the names of persons who had alleged that the lands were not let to the best advantage was: –
“Department has no information as to source of allegations, but understands that considerable correspondence on subject took place some two months back in Hawke’s Bay papers.”
Then, on the 15th May, the Department sent this telegram:-
“As to having representative in any capacity other than witness, Department has no function under Commission and no information which would enable it to take action in direction suggested.”
That is all we have received from the Education Department. On receiving the telegram stating that the allegations in the Commission were founded on some newspaper correspondence, I instructed the Secretary to obtain the newspaper clippings relating to this matter, and these I have before me and will produce later on. I also instructed the Secretary to write to the editors of the Daily Telegraph and the Hawke’s Bay Herald the following letter
“DEAR SIR, – The attention of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the management of the Te Aute trust estate has been drawn to certain articles, &c., in your paper relating to the management, &c., of the trust and conduct of the trustees. I am instructed to inform you that if you or the writers of the articles, &c., in your paper desire to give evidence before the Commissioners they will be glad to hear from you. Kindly reply at an early date. The Commission sits again to-morrow at 10.30 a.m.”
That was dated the 16th May. That is the position with regard to that matter. Speaking for myself – and I think the other Commissioners will agree with me – we thought the Education Department should be represented, and when we got the reply from the Education Department on the 11th May stating “Mr. Bird will represent Department” we understood that he was to represent the Department – that is to say, we understood that he was to be here to call evidence and examine witnesses, and so forth. However, if the Department does not wish to be represented I have nothing further to say.
Mr. Bird: Does that mean I may go?
The Chairman: We shall require you as a witness, probably. If the Department does not wish to be represented, we cannot compel it to be represented, but we expected it to be represented.
Mr. Hogg: All I understood was that Mr. Bird is simply here to give any information we require in regard to the education given at these Native schools, and generally to help the Commission in a voluntary way, but that he is not here to in any way influence evidence or to conduct the proceedings. Mr. Bird states that distinctly.
The Chairman: We know his position now.
Mr. Hogg: There seems to be an impression that he is here to conduct the proceedings on behalf of the Education Department, but he really takes no active interest in the Commission at all.
The Chairman: We understand that now, but we did not understand it before. There can be no misunderstanding in the future. The Education Department does not appear to conduct the inquiry in any way. I desire further to state that on Tuesday last the Commissioners visited Te Aute College, and were received with every kindness by Mr. and Mrs. Thornton and Archdeacon Williams’s people. The day was fine, and we had an opportunity of going over a good portion of the estate and seeing the work that is carried on. Yesterday we visited Hukarere School, and were received there with the same cordiality that we experienced at Te Aute. We also waited on Mr. Fielder, who is one of the trustees, and also acts as secretary to the trustees, and he has very kindly given us all the title deeds, papers, and documents in his possession, and has afforded us every facility for getting at all the facts in connection with the past management and history of this trust.
Subsequently, –
Mr. Ngata said, – The Natives present wish to know if the Commission will hold a sitting at Te Aute for the purpose of hearing them. The young people present say they wish the old people to say something before the Commission, because they are the ones who know the position of matters.
The Chairman: Before the Commission decides, I would like to know what questions they wish to bring before the Commission?
Wiremu Erueti: We should like to go into the question as to why the land was given originally.
The Chairman: That all appears in the Crown grants.
Wiremu Erueti: We should also like the boundaries of the land gone into. We want the surveys corrected.
The Chairman: That is not a matter referred to us by the Commission.
G. – 5. 8
Wiremu Erueti: The exchange of land that has taken place is a new matter, and we would like that explained to us.
The Chairman: That was explained by the witness this morning. We have also asked the Registrar of Deeds to come here and produce deeds, showing the original grants and the pieces exchanged, and so forth. I would like the Natives to be informed that we will hold a meeting at Te Aute if it is necessary. We wish to give them every chance, but the main evidence must be taken here.
Wiremu Erueti: Another matter we wish to lay before the Commission is this: We would like the school to be at once carried on according to the trust, and that there should be no divergence from the trust.
The Chairman: I would like the Natives to appoint a representative to listen to the evidence taken here, and then to make out a memorandum of the matters they wish to bring before us. Upon receipt of that we will then decide as to holding a meeting at Te Aute, and if we decide to go there due notice will be given to them.
Wiremu Erueti: That will satisfy us. We will do that.
JOHN BECKETT FIELDER examined.
1. The Chairman.] What is your occupation? – I am registrar of the Diocese of Waiapu, and also one of the trustees of the Te Aute trust.
2. When were you appointed a trustee? – On the 21st August, 1885.
3. That is the first time you had anything to do with this trust? – Yes.
4. And do you, as well as being trustee, occupy any other position, such as secretary to the trust, or have you the custody of the deeds and documents?- I have had, and I have at the present time, the custody of the whole of the trust deeds of the Diocese of Waiapu as registrar of the diocese – the whole of the deeds relating to all trust properties are in my custody.
5. Do the Te Aute trustees hold any regular meetings? – Yes, since 1900, and since I took an active interest in the trust. Our first meeting was on the 4th May, 1900, at Mr. A. G. Cotterill’s office, Napier.
6. Do you keep a minute book? – Yes.
7. Which you now produce? – Yes.
8. Under whose instructions were the minutes kept? – Under the instructions of the board. I may say that I am what you might call the corresponding trustee to the trust.
9. Do the trustees keep any banking account? – No.
10. Do they receive any of the moneys, or disburse any of the moneys of the trust? – No.
11. Do they take any part whatever in the management of the trust? – No – that is to say, in the interior economy of the trust.
12. Who acted in the capacity in which you now act? Who kept the minute-book prior to this minute-book? – To the best of my knowledge and belief, there was a minute-book kept, but the trustees were in Wellington. I cannot say definitely.
13. You have none in your possession? – No. Of course, I presume they kept them.
14. Will you say what part the trustees took in the administration of the trust in your time? – It was in reference to the leasing of the estate, and in reference to the landed estate.
15. To whom was that intrusted? – To Archdeacon Samuel Williams, under authority from the trustees.
16. He has administered the whole of that part of the trust on behalf of the trustees from the beginning of the trust? – Yes, and up to the present time.
17. That is to say, the appointment of teachers and the general supervision of the College has been under his control? – Yes.
18. And the financial part of the trust – in regard to receipts and expenditure? – Yes. He reported to the Diocesan Synod, and also to the General Synod.
19. Accounts of receipts and disbursements were sent in regularly? – Yes, regularly, since 1892. They have been published in the Synod reports since then.
20. You can produce them by-and-by? – Yes.
21. Did the trustees visit the College from time to time? – Yes.
22. And they had a general knowledge of what was going on? – Yes.
23. And everything that was done met with their approval? – Yes.
24. Were the accounts audited from time to time? – Yes, every year.
25. And the books were kept at the College? – Yes.
26. Do you know whether any of the funds coming from the estate were applied in establishing any other school or schools? – Yes.
27. What school? – Hukarere Native Girls’ School. That was established by the authority of the trustees in the first instance, and by Act of Parliament.
28. Moneys coming out of the Te Aute Estate proper have been applied in maintaining Hukarere? -Yes.
29. We had it from the Bishop the other day that Hukarere was a gift by the first Bishop of Waiapu, Bishop William Williams? – Yes
30. The Te Aute moneys were paid over to the Hukarere School under the authority of Act of Parliament? – Yes, of 1892. That Act recites the conditions and who the trustees were.
31. Do you know what moneys from the Te Aute Estate have been so applied? – I only know from the published accounts. They show the amounts.
32. During your time, have the trustees paid any money, or allowed any money out of the funds, to the Archdeacon as superintendent at Te Aute? – None whatever. His services have been given voluntarily.
33. Have the trustees paid him any moneys out of the funds for improvements, or anything of that sort? – No, nothing. He has expended very large sums of money on the improvement of the estate, and he has been allowed nothing for it.
J. B. FIELDER.] 9 G. – 5.
34. Do you know whether the Archdeacon has given any money to the Hukarere School? – Yes. By the published accounts up to 1904 he has given £2,405 1s. 4d.
35. These were by way of gift? – Yes. In order to save the Commission going through the accounts I will state them. For the years ending the 30th June, 1893, £29 9s. 1d.; 1901, £600; 1902, £205 14s., 1903, £400; and 1904, £1,169 18s. 3d.: making a total of £2,405 1s. 4d.
36. I suppose you do not know whether he has given any other moneys privately that have not appeared in the accounts? – I believe he has, but I do not know the amounts.
37. Has he given any moneys to the Te Aute College? – He has expended large sums of money on improvements which have not been shown in the accounts.
38. That is during his tenancy? – Yes, in addition to the rent he has paid as our tenant.
39. What do these improvements consist of? – Improvements in the pasture, planting trees, fencing, erecting buildings, and general improvement of the estate.
40. There is a chapel on the estate: that was not paid for out of the trust fund? – No; that was erected by private contributions.
41. And the other buildings have all been erected by the Archdeacon at his own expense – the trustees have not expended any moneys on the property themselves? – No. We have expended no moneys whatever out of the trust funds in the erection of buildings that I know of. Of course, the accounts will show.
42. I will ask you to produce the Crown grants? – I do so. There are four Crown grants and one certificate of title [Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7].
43. With regard to the exchange of land made between the trustees and the Archdeacon, what do you know about that? – When Archdeacon Williams applied to the trustees it was deemed advisable that certain lands adjacent to the trust estate should be exchanged with the Archdeacon, and in order that the trustees might be put in possession of the full facts, and the value of the lands that were to be exchanged, the trustees obtained a valuation from Mr. Horace Baker, surveyor and land agent, and late Commissioner of Crown Lands for Hawke’s Bay. We thought that he was the most competent man to give the information, and he gave a written report that the lands offered in exchange for the lands of the trust were of great advantage to the trust, and that they would increase the value and utility of the trust estate. Then it was necessary for permission to be obtained from the Diocesan Synod, and also from the General Synod.
44. You say generally that the exchange was a fair exchange, and beneficial to the trust? – Yes. It was of more benefit to the trust than to Archdeacon Williams.
45. Then, you say that the trust by that exchange was the gainer? – Yes.
46. And you say so on the advice you got from Mr. Horace Baker? – Yes. I produce the report we got from Mr. Baker at the time [Exhibit No. 8].
47. Is Mr. Baker an honourable and reliable valuer? – Yes.
48. And you had confidence in his opinion? – Every confidence.
49. It was an absolutely independent and unbiassed valuation so far as you know? – Quite.
50. The matter was carefully considered by the trustees, and they decided to agree to the exchange? – Yes, and to recommend the exchange to the General Synod.
51. And the Synod consented to the transaction?- Yes. That appears in the Proceedings of the Fifteenth General Synod in 1901. At page 90 this resolution appears: “That this Synod sanctions the exchange by the trustees of the Te Aute College trust of 315 acres 2 roods 1 perch, being part of the Te Aute College lands, for 315 acres 2 roods 1 perch, being part of the Poupoutahi, Roto-a-tara, and Otukotorewhero Blocks, the property of the Ven. Archdeacon Samuel Williams.” At page 101 there is the report of the committee on reports of trustees, as follows: “ Your committee have considered an application made by Mr. A. J. Cotterill, on behalf of the trustees of the Te Aute College trust, for the sanction of the Synod to be given for an exchange of 315 acres 2 roods 1 perch, being part of the Te Aute College lands, for the same quantity of land belonging to the Venerable Samuel Williams. Your committee have taken evidence from Mr. Cotterill, Archdeacon Williams, and Mr. Fielder, and have examined a plan of the several places, together with reports of resolutions of trustees and valuator appointed by them, and have seen a copy of a favourable resolution by the Diocesan Synod in its last session. Your committee are satisfied that the proposed exchange of land is favourable to the Te Aute trust, and do recommend that the sanction of the Synod be given thereto.” And it was sanctioned accordingly.
52. There is another small exchange shown by the deeds, between Mr. Stokes and the trustees? – Yes; that was years ago – in 1868. It was to adjust boundaries, and to secure a good line of fencing. Of course, that went before the General Synod also. I may say that under the canons no sale of land or exchange of trust estate can be effected unless it is sanctioned by the General Synod.
53. And these exchanges have been beneficial to the estate? – Yes.
54. These are all the exchanges? – Yes.
55. In regard to the leases, do you produce the three leases between the trustees and the Archdeacon? – Yes. The first lease I have is dated the 13th June, 1878 [Exhibit No. 9]. The second is dated the 2nd September, 1892 [Exhibit No. 10]. There is also attached to it a copy of a report made by Captain Russell, one of the trustees [Exhibit No. 11].
56. With regard to the first lease, I suppose you believe that the terms and conditions of that lease were faithfully carried out? – Yes.
57. None of the buildings or improvements effected on the land were ever removed? – No. The Archdeacon has never exercised his right to remove them.
58. Can you give us any idea what the buildings and improvements consist of? – I cannot.
59. When the second lease expired, did the Archdeacon remain on? – Yes, he continued under the terms and conditions of the second lease.
60. Before the expiry of the second lease, were there any negotiations for a new lease? – Yes.
2 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 10 J. B. FIELDER.
61. How long prior to that? – I cannot say. Then there was a third lease, dated the 12th June, 1903 [Exhibit No. 12].
62. The Archdeacon agrees under that lease to surrender 100 acres, which include the College grounds? – Yes, when the land is required for the use of the College.
63. I suppose the covenants of the lease have been carried out? – Yes.
64. Under this lease the Archdeacon has the right to remove all buildings which have been erected for station purposes? – Yes. It has nothing whatever to do with the College portion.
65. The Archdeacon is now in possession under this lease, and he still occupies as well the position of manager of the College on behalf of the trustees? – Yes.
66. That lease is dated 1903, but apparently negotiations were going on about it for some time before? – Yes. Here is the report from Mr. Horace Baker to the trustees [Exhibt [Exhibit] No. 13]. We did not feel we were justified in letting the land unless we had a report from a surveyor and valuator as to the letting value of the estate. I also produce figures obtained by the trustees from the reports of the Valuation Department as to the values placed on other station properties in the neighbourhood [Exhibit No. 14].
67. You produce also the correspondence between the Archdeacon and the trustees and their solicitors? – Yes [Exhibit No. 15].
68. The minute-books show what took place at meetings of the trustees? – Yes.
69. Did the trustees give this matter their very careful consideration? – Yes, very careful indeed.
70. Did they have the valuation before them at their meeting? – Yes.
71. And finally they consented to this lease, and signed the lease? – Yes. I may say that the increased rent that we placed on the estate included the improvements that Archdeacon Williams had made himself, and for which the estate had given him no remuneration. Mr. Baker’s valuation of the letting value did not amount to £2,200, but the trustees, whether rightly or wrongly. said that they wanted £2,200.
72. When Mr. Baker’s valuation was got during the negotiations, was it understood that Mr. Baker was to be a sort of arbitrator between the Archdeacon and the trustees, or was he acting solely on behalf of the trustees? – On behalf of the trustees.
73. Who paid him for the valuation? – The trustees paid him out of the estate.
74. Then he was acting solely in the interests of the trustees? – Yes.
75. And you asked about £100 more than his valuation? – Yes. There was a difference between a twenty-one years’ and seven years’ lease, and we split the difference in granting a twelve years’ lease.
76. How long have you been in business in Napier? – I retired from the Civil Service – I was Deputy Commissioner of Stamps – in 1879, and I have been in business since then.
77. Having regard to the whole of the surrounding circumstances, are you prepared to state that, in your opinion, the lease you made was a lease to the best advantage of the trust? – Most decidedly. I do not think there can be any doubt whatever about that.
78. Did you or the trustees consider the question of cutting the estate up into farms, or of letting it by auction or tender? – It was mentioned, but we thought it would be detrimental to the trust. As Archdeacon Williams was superintendent of the College, and also had been such a very good tenant, we thought it was far better to let the land to him than to let it to anybody else, or cut it up and have a number of tenants there who might be detrimental to the trust. Such tenants might take everything out of the land and not be so satisfactory. The trustees considered these things, and we thought that Archdeacon Williams’s presence there would be of great advantage to the trust. Of course, we only let it for twelve years.
79. You have authority to let without calling for tenders? – Yes.
80. Was the question of calling for tenders or of submitting the lease to auction ever discussed by the trustees? – It was discussed, but we did not take it into consideration.
81. Who raised the question? – I think it was merely mentioned in casual conversation amongst the trustees.
82. It was discussed by the trustees? – Yes. One person might have said, “Do you think it would be of advantage to cut it up?” and, of course, the answer was “No.” It was felt it would be far better to let it to the Archdeacon as it was.
83. That was the conclusion you come to? – Unanimously.
84. That was in the interests of the trust and having regard not only to obtaining a revenue out of the estate, but to the retaining of his influence and personality in the administration of the College? – That is it.
85. As he had been the father of the trust away back in the “fifties,” you thought he should continue to act in the capacity of manager and father, so to speak, during his lifetime? – Yes. And, to my knowledge, I consider we should not have received such rent as £2,200 if the land had been cut up as a leasehold for twelve years.
86. Of course, you would run the risk in cutting it up of having sections left on your hands? – Yes. And, another thing, we should have to road and subdivide it, and the expenses of surveying would probably have taken a very large percentage of the first year’s rent.
87. I suppose you would have had to give a lease with a full compensation clause to induce people to take up the land for twenty-one years? – Yes, and I do not think any man with any business capacity would take over a place like that for twelve years, unless he meant to take the whole of the goodness out of the land. I consider it would be very, very detrimental to the trust. That is my opinion as a trustee, but, of course, you can get expert evidence as to that.
88. We are asking you these questions because our Commission says: “Whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage.” If that. means anything, it means that the trustees, in granting this or any other leases, have not had the interests of the trust at heart? – I contend that the trustees did let it to very great advantage.
J. B. FIELDER.] 11 G. – 5.
89. You know the terms of the trusts in the four grants? – Yes.
90. The Bishop has already told us that the trust has been administered as one? – Yes.
91. That is to say, the whole of the lands have been thrown into one trust, and administered for the benefit of both Natives and Europeans? – Yes.
92. To sum up, the trust estate now consists of what we may call the Te Aute property, subject to the exchanges made with Mr. Stokes and Archdeacon Williams? – Yes.
93. And the accretion of the Hukarere Estate? – Yes.
94. Has the trust any other property? Has it any money invested? – No.
95. Has it any stock or personal property of any kind? – No; it has no chattel property with the exception of the furniture, &c., in use in the College.
96. And has not had during your term of office? – No.
97. With regard to accounts, the Commission asks us to inquire as to “the total receipts and disbursements for each year since the creation of the trust.” We have them up to 1868 in the report of the previous Commission. Have you got them since 1868, or would you prefer to leave that matter to the Archdeacon? – I would prefer to do so.
98. They have not been printed? – Some of them have. The accounts from 1893 have been printed in the report of the Diocesan Synod.
99. Are there any books of accounts – a cash-book or ledger – showing the state of the accounts from the beginning of the trust? – I believe there are, but they are in the possession of Archdeacon Williams.
100. So far as the financial affairs of the trust are concerned, the trustees, beyond seeing the accounts which were produced before the Synod, would know nothing about them? – No; they are all left to our attorney and superintendent, Archdeacon Williams.
101. Were the accounts audited? – Yes.
102. Who appointed the auditor? – The accounts have been duly audited by one person and another. Prior to my appointment as trustee, I used to audit the accounts. Since then Mr. Kettle has audited them, and Mr. Hansard. They are competent persons.
103. Who appointed them? – I do not know if there was any proper appointment.
104. Were they asked by the trustees to audit the books? – I cannot say. The accounts have been rendered to the General Synod from time to time, and have been duly audited.
105. Did the trustees approve of the auditors who were nominated to audit the accounts? – Yes.
106. Were they reliable auditors? – Yes. There has never been any objection to the auditing of the accounts.
107. Can you say whether any moneys coming out of the trust estate have been devoted to any other schools, or applied to the creation or assistance of any other schools outside Hukarere? – None
108. Are you prepared to speak or to offer any opinion in regard to the system of education at Te Aute, more particularly on the question of technical education? – There has been some correspondence in reference to technical education. The Archdeacon can tell you about that.
109. Are the trustees prepared to fall in with the wishes of the Education Department on that question, so far as the funds of the trust Will allow? – Most decidedly. The trustees are anxious for it, and they have never offered any objection to it.
110. Correspondence has taken place on that subject with the Government? – Yes, and it speaks for itself.
111. And the Inspector has reported from time to time on the same subject? – Yes.
112. Do you wish to offer any opinion of your own, apart from the opinion of the trustees, in regard to the question of technical education? – I am very strongly in favour of technical education, and I think it would be a very good thing indeed if a proper course of technical education was given to the Maoris as well as to Europeans. I have very strong opinion on this subject. The trustees are always quite willing to fall in with any suggestions in reference to technical education at the College. Of course, it is distinctly understood that the trustees do not wish to interfere with the conduct of the school, because that is left in the hands of Archdeacon Williams.
113. And up to a certain point the whole management of the trust not only in regard to the land, but also to the education at the school, was in the hands of the trustees and the Synod, and there was no Education Department in the colony at all? – That is so.
114. Then the Education Department was established and our system of national education introduced, and up to that point there was nobody to interfere with the system of education at Te Aute College? – No.
115. It was left in the hands of the Church? – Yes. Archdeacon Williams can give the Commission every information on that subject.
116. And after that the Education Department was established, and Inspectors come round and inspect these schools, and the Government, having made grants and so forth, claims to have a say in the policy in regard to the system of education? – Yes.
117. And you admit that, and the trustees are willing to work with the Education Department on this matter of technical education? – Yes.
118. You do not wish for any friction or misunderstanding? – No.
119. Do you know anything about what moneys have been granted by the Government to the College? – Yes, they all appear in the annual accounts.
120. Has any offer been made to the trustees recently by the Government to purchase a portion of this estate? – Yes, we received this letter: “Wellington, 31st January, 1906. – Rt. Rev. Sir, – The Government has directed me to acquire more land for small settlement in Hawke’s Bay, and it has been thought that the Te Aute College land, adjacent to the Argyll Settlement, would be suitable for the purpose. I beg, therefore, to suggest to you and to your board that, say,
G. – 5. 12 [J. B. FIELDER.
2,300 acres, somewhat as shown on the enclosed plan, should be offered to the Government at a fair price, including the tenant’s interest. The purchase-money could be paid in cash, and possession taken at a date to suit the convenience of Archdeacon Williams, the tenant, with whom you could no doubt arrange. – I have the honour to be, sir, your most obedient servant, A. BARRON, Chairman, Board of Land Purchase Commissioners. – The Rt. Rev. the Bishop of Waiapu, Napier.” That matter came before the trustees, and it was not acceded to. That appears in the minute-book. As the corresponding trustee, I sent this reply: “Diocese of Waiapu, Napier, 21st February, 1906. – The Chairman, Board of Land Purchase. Commissioners, Wellington. – Sir, – I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 31st ultimo, addressed to the Right Rev. the Bishop of this diocese, requesting this board of trustees of the Te Aute trust to offer to the Government for small-settlement purposes about 2,300 acres of the land of the Te Aute College trust, and, in reply, I beg to inform you that the board cannot accede to your request – Yours faithfully, J. B. FIELDER, for self and co-trustees.”
121. Have the trustees ever received any complaints from the Natives or from anybody else in regard to their administration of the estate? – Nothing, either directly or indirectly, that I am aware of.
122. Has it ever been suggested that the trustees in the administration of the estate have acted otherwise than in the interests of the trust? – No. I may say there has been some anonymous correspondence in the newspapers.
123. We do not take notice of anonymous correspondence? – That is so. There has never been a complaint. If there had been any official communication it would have been addressed to the trustees, and I have heard of nothing.
124. Has the Education Department ever written to the trustees, or in any way communicated with them, asking for information in regard to their administration outside the question of technical education? – Never, that I am aware of.
125. Has the Education Department, or the officers of the Department, ever visited you or the College, and asked to see your deeds and documents and accounts? – I do not know whether they have visited Te Aute, but they have never been to me as one of the trustees or as registrar of the diocese to see the deeds, conveyances, grants, or leases.
126. Have the trustees at all times been willing and ready to show their accounts, deeds, and documents, and their dealings as trustees to the Education Department, or to the Government generally? – Yes, or to any one else. Our accounts are always published each year, and are generally circulated.
127. Is there any other matter you desire to bring before the Commission, or have you anything further to volunteer? – All I can say is that the trustees always have been and always shall be quite willing and anxious to give all the information they can in reference to the administration of the trust. I have a copy of the Commission.
128. Mr Hogg.] By whom are the trustees appointed? – By the Diocesan Trusts Board. The board of each diocese is constituted by the canon of the General Synod.
129. You were appointed in 1885? – Yes, with the Bishop of Waiapu, Sir William Russell, Mr. J. N. Willams [Williams], and Mr. A. J. Cotterill. We replaced Bishop Hadfield and the other trustees in Wellington. I produce the appointments of trustees, dated the 13th May, 1862 [Exhibit No. 16]; 21st August, 1885 [Exhibit No. 17]; 20th September, 1895 [Exhibit No. 18]; and June, 1903 [Exhibit No. 19].
130. The first meeting of the trustees, according to this minute-book, was held in 1900? – That was the first meeting of which I kept the minutes when I became corresponding trustee, vice Mr. Cotterill, who had previously held that position. He was one of the trustees and also solicitor for the estate. There are no minute-books of the previous meetings to my knowledge; but I do not say there were no minute-books kept. I would like very much to obtain all these ancient documents.
131. The Chairman.] Will you take steps to ascertain whether any documents or deeds or papers relating to this trust are in Wellington? – I will. I do not know to whom I am to apply, because all the previous trustees are dead.
132. I suppose these records are kept for the Synod by some responsible officer? – I suppose so.
133. Mr. Hogg.] When did this exchange of land take place? – On the 4th May, 1900.
134. This land was valued: can you say whether there is much land on the estate of a similar quality to the land that was exchanged? Is the land that was exchanged a fair sample of the land throughout the estate, or was it a piece of land of exceptional value? – I have never been over the estate, and can hardly say. Of course the Archdeacon can answer that question. I know the estate has gained considerably by the exchange.
135. Since that exchange was made, do you think from your own knowledge of what is going on that the price of land has increased? – Yes, the price of land in Hawke’s Bay has increased considerably.
136. In 1903 a lease was executed for twelve years? – Yes.
137. How is it that you departed from the usual term of seven or fourteen or twenty-one years? – I do not know. A lease is granted for all periods.
138. Who suggested twelve years? – It was discussed at our meeting, and it was suggested – I do not know by whom – that we should give a lease for twelve years.
139. On a previous occasion the lease was for fourteen years, consisting of two terms, and the rent was increased very materially during the second term: what I want to know is whether the matter was discussed, and why that process was not adopted in regard to the subsequent leases? – I do not think the question was ever raised, so far as my memory serves me.
140. Are you aware whether there has been any agitation on the part of the people of Napier or neighbourhood for the subdivision of this land? – I have heard nothing of it.
141. You have heard nothing of any petitions or meetings, or anything of that sort? – No.
J. B. FIELDER.] 13 G. – 5.
142. Do you know whether there is any general desire to get the property cut up and divided into farms? – I do not think so. It has never come before the trustees.
143. No applications have been made to the trustees? – None whatever, either since the existing lease or prior to it.
144. Mr. Lee.] I understood you to say there is no stock? – Not belonging to the trustees.
145. Still, in 1869, you see by the report, there was stock on the ground which had increased to a considerable number? – I know nothing about that. You will find that out from Archdeacon Williams.
146. You are quite clear now that there is none belonging to the trust? – So far as I know, the trustees are possessed of no chattel property, with the exception of the furniture in the College.
147. You profess yourself as strongly in favour of technical education? – Yes.
148. Do you distinguish between technical education as understood now in its modern sense and the mere industrial occupations as at present practised in the different institutions? – I mean the industrial occupations.
149. Are you prepared to make any suggestions as to what technical education should be taught in the schools? – Well, the girls should be taught cutting-out and dress-making, and ordinary household duties; and the boys, I take it, should be taught ordinary carpentering-work, and should be taught to be proficient as handy men. Of course, I do not mean they should be taught trades.
150. Mr. Ngata.] Have the trustees ever exercised any control over the admission of students to this school? – Not to my knowledge.
151. I suppose the usual method is to make application to the superintendent? – Yes.
152. The applications do not come to the trustees? – No. If an application came to the trustees, or to me as corresponding trustee, I would refer it to the Archdeacon.
153. Have any representations been made to yourself or to any of your co-trustees on the subject of the admission of European boys to the institution? – No.
154. Mr. Eliott.] I want to know definitely whether any money from the Te Aute trust has been spent on the Waerenga-a-Hika School? – No.
155. There are certain payments made for Native scholars by the Government? – Yes.
156. To whom will the money be payable? – To Archdeacon Williams.
157. Mr. Ngata.] What would your own opinion be as to the advisability of putting a representative of the Ngatikahungunu people, who gave this land, on this trust? – I see no objection.
158. The Chairman.] According to the lease the total area of the estate is 6,863 acres, consisting of three blocks of 4,803, 1,745, and 315 acres: has this property ever been properly surveyed? – I cannot say.
159. Mr. Eliott.] We are asked to ascertain what proportion of the revenue has been paid on account of each school maintained by the trust: is any definite proportion set apart for Hukarere School, or is the Te Aute fund drawn upon as money is required? – The accounts will disclose that.
160. There is no definite allocation from the Te Aute fund each year to the Hukarere School? – No.
161. The Chairman.] Would the trustees object to the accounts being audited by a Government Department? – No.
162. Under the last lease you have the right to take over the buildings at a valuation? – Yes.
163. Have you any idea what they would amount to? – No; the Archdeacon can answer that question.
164. And if the trust took them over, out of what fund would they pay for them? – There is no fund. I presume we should have to mortgage the estate.
165. It amounts to this: If you had not a fund you could not buy the buildings, and the buildings would have to be removed if the Archdeacon chose to remove them? – That question has never been considered by the trustees. If the question arose, no doubt we would consider it.
SAMUEL WILLIAMS examined.
166. The Chairman.] You are Archdeacon of Hawke’s Bay? – Yes.
167. We understand that you are acquainted with the earliest history in connection with this Te Aute trust? – Yes.
168. We would like you to tell us in your own language the history of this trust from its infancy? – It dates back to 1852. I was then in charge of the Otaki missionary district, between Wellington and the Rangitikei River. I was asked by the Bishop of New Zealand to go down there in 1847 on a mission, in the first instance, to endeavour to unravel some of the disagreements amongst the Maoris and the differences between them and the Government. At that time Mr. Hadfield, as he was then, was laid aside through illness. This resulted in a petition being sent to the Bishop of New Zealand and the Church Missionary Society that I should be placed at Otaki permanently. Otaki was the headquarters. I succeeded in pacifying the Natives, and made considerable progress in the way of education amongst them. I had eight village schools and a central school at Otaki. There were from 120 to 130 scholars in the central school. In 1852 Sir George Grey visited the district, making my house his headquarters. During the first evening he was there he asked me how I should like to go to Hawke’s Bay. I replied that I did not wish to go to Hawke’s Bay or anywhere else. I said I was exceedingly happy in my work at Otaki, and I sincerely hoped nothing would interfere with it. Sir George Grey made no further remark until the third evening he was there. Then he told me he was feeling very anxious about Hawke’s Bay; that he saw that a large English population would be flocking into the district before the Natives were prepared to come into contact with them, and that he feared that unless there was somebody who could stand between the two races they would be certain to come into collision. “Now,” he said, “if you will go I will give you 4,000 acres of land to assist you in your educational pursuits, and I will endeavour to induce the Maoris to give an equal amount.” He promised to give
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me money for the purchase of sheep and for buildings, and for almost anything necessary, I think; but he promised these definitely, and that I should be provided with funds to carry on the school. In the beginning of 1853 the Bishop and Sir George Grey made an appointment with me to meet them at Waipukurau by a given date in March. I came up the Manawatu River, and Sir George and the Bishop came up by the Wairarapa. In consequence of bad weather I had the advantage by coming up the Manawatu River, and I got a fortnight ahead of them. There were no roads in those days; only what they called pig-tracks. I got in in advance of the Bishop and Sir George Grey, and consequently was not present at the meeting on the island on the Roto-a-Tara Lake. I had on my way down taken a bird’s-eye view of the country, and I fixed on Te Aute for the selection of the block. Sir George Grey said, “You may pick the land wherever you like.” It was when the district was first thrown open for selection. I selected the site where the 4,244 acres were marked off. The Natives, on returning to their own country after the cessation of hostilities amongst themselves, had previously expressed a wish that I should come to Hawke’s Bay. They had also promised to give me whatever land might be required, and on this occasion they pointed out blocks of land which were supposed to represent 4,000 acres, but which did not measure quite as much, although I believe if a careful valuation was made it would be found that the Native gift is quite equal to the Government grant in point of value. But I omitted to say that my reply to Sir George Grey at Otaki was that I told him he placed me on the horns of a dilemma, and that my private feelings were exactly as I represented to him on the previous occasion. “But,” I said, “if the Bishop of New Zealand and the senior missionaries of the Church Missionary Society consider it advisable that I should go, I will set my own feelings on one side and I will go where I am wanted.” Sir George Grey made it a condition that I was to go there. In fact, he said, “My object is not education on the present occasion. My object is to get you to Hawke’s Bay, and unless you go,” he said forcibly, “I do not give an acre.” As I then felt the Natives moving in the same direction, I looked upon it as a call, and I made up my mind to go if required. The question was referred to the central committee of the Church Missionary Society in New Zealand, and to the Bishop. They both concurred in the appointment, and I came and took charge of the district early in 1853. I could not leave Otaki with all my engagements at once, and I moved between the two districts until the end of 1854. I then moved over to Hawke’s Bay with my wife and infant daughter. I had scarcely got to Te Aute before I received contrary instructions from Salisbury Square to return to the Church Missionary station at Otaki, and continue the work I had been carrying on in connection with the society. The Bishop of New Zealand begged me to stay where I was. He said to me, “You have a perfect right to demand a suitable house; but if you raise the question I apprehend you will be moved to the house, and not the house to you. I hope you will hold on as best you can, or I fear the result will be disastrous.” However, I need not go into particulars. The first habitation I had at Te Aute was a pataka, or Maori store, which was set at my disposal. It was about 11 ft. long by 8 ft. wide, and the walls were about 3ft. 6 in. high. Neither the Governor nor the committee of the Church Missionary Society nor the Bishop had taken into consideration that a missionary would require a house to live in. I then took steps to erect a two-roomed raupo house. In the second year it was added to by another room, and we were hoping to get pecuniary assistance from some quarter or another; but I got none, and I had to live in a raupo whare for six years, I think it was.
169. What was your position then? – I was the salaried servant of the Church Missionary Society; but not being on Church Missionary Society property, and the Church Missionary Society at Home wishing me to return to Otaki, I dared not, as the Bishop saw, say a word about it. Therefore I was between three stools; and Sir George Grey, unfortunately, just after this was moved to the Cape, otherwise I think he would have seen I was put in a different position. The Board in Wellington placed £300 at my disposal, and it was part of the General Government grant that I had for three or four years. This is stated in one of the previous Commissions. At the end of this time the General Government altered its scale of giving grants for education. Instead of giving me a definite sum, they gave me grants that were supposed to be £10 per head, but practically were only £7 or £8 per head for each scholar. I had to provide a schoolmaster and provisions for the boys that I had, and I found that I was running heavily into debt. Owing to this, and owing to the disturbance upon the land question in the district, I felt obliged most reluctantly to close the school, and hoped for a better chance afterwards. I tried to let part of this land in order to get an income; but the highest price I could get was £4 2s. 6d. a year for the main block. I received that from Mr. Robert Pharazyn for four years. At the end of four years he gave it up, saying it was utterly useless to him unless money was spent on it to fence it and otherwise improve it. It then remained for four years without bringing in a single sixpence, when Mr. Loughborough Smith, a settler, in consequence of some dispute with the Natives was disturbed in his occupation, and he offered me £5 per month for it, which I gladly accepted. He occupied it for seven months, and then he gave it up as being of no use to him. Finding then that it was, and likely to remain, utterly useless for educational purposes, I, at my own risk, spent some of my own private capital on it, and by borrowing other funds I managed to fence and otherwise improve the land with a view to securing an income from it in order to start a school. I think the rest of the story is pretty clearly set out in the previous Commissions.
170. Will you tell us what was the condition of the country when you first came? – It was principally fern country and scrub. Some parts of it were forest and portions of it swamp. The large swamp was included.
171. What was the state of the country immediately behind the College? – There were about 300 acres of forest land. We cleared that off afterwards.
172. Were you present when the piece of land was given by the Natives to the Crown? – Yes. They walked the boundaries with me.
173. Was there any written document between the Natives and the Crown? – Yes; it was written, and it was afterwards signed. They were not prepared to sign at the time, because they
S WILLIAMS.] 15 G. – 5.
wanted to make quite sure I was coming back. They sent a deputation to me saying they wished to understand whether I was coming back myself or not, because they said distinctly, “If you go away and send somebody else, not one inch of land will we give.”
174. What became of these written documents? – They were placed in the hands of the General Government. When the deed was signed Mr. G. S. Cooper was present, and old Hapuku, the paramount chief, who gave the land, said to me, “What a rum lot you are. We give a block of land to you, and you calmly dictate to us to give it to somebody else.” I explained to him that I could only receive it on this condition, and he said at last. “If you will be so foolish I cannot help you,” and he signed the deed.
175. Who prepared the deed? – It was prepared by the Government.
176. Was there any plan on it of the land? – I do not recollect.
177. Does it refer to the main block or to the whole lot? – To the Maori grants only.
178. Were the trusts specified in that deed: did the deed set forth the trust upon which the land was to be held by the Crown? – It was given for a school. I myself did not know that there was any difference in the language of the grants until some years afterwards. I asked Bishop Selwyn how it was that it was for a school for the children of both races. He said that they foresaw that there would be a number of Europeans living among or near to the Maoris who would not object to their children being educated with the Maoris, and it was to prevent the trustees feeling obliged to exclude these children from the school that this was done.
179. Do you say that the Natives understood that the land that was given was for the purpose of education for both races, or was it to be exclusively for the one race? – The term does not apply to the Native gift, I think you will see. The Native gift was to be for Maoris.
180. The land was given by the Natives for the Natives only? – Yes.
181. And the land given by the Government was for both races? – Yes, there the clause comes in for both races; but we never understood by that that it was to be divided between the two races. For instance, St. Stephen’s School in Auckland was given for both races, and although it was conducted under Sir George Grey’s own eye and Bishop Selwyn, I do not think there was any English boy there. Canon MacMurray tells me that only one or two English boys have ever been there.
182. Two of these grants of land were grants which the Natives gave? – Yes. One of these grants is for 4,244 acres, the 244 acres having been added later. When I asked that the 244 acres should be included, I had no knowledge of the difference in the wording of the grants. The area of 244 acres is part of the Maori gift. Then, again, the trustees surrendered a portion of one grant to the Crown to be exchanged, and in issuing the grant for the exchange the Crown inserted the words, “for both races,” whereas it was exchanged for a Maori gift. I do not know whether that was What was in the minds of the Natives the other day when they said there had been a mistake.
183. But you say the Government grant of 4,000 acres was rightly granted for the benefit of both races? – Yes, they could do as they liked about it. But it was promised to me to support my school.
184. This grant of 1,408 acres was a Native grant, and the trust there is “upon trust for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants”? – Yes.
185. Then that piece of 382 acres to the south of the original grant was cut off, and in the Crown grant the trust sets forth that it is for the benefit of both races: you say that was a mistake? – I fancy it was done intentionally, but it was an error.
186. It should have been the same as the previous grant? – Yes, and so should be the 244 acres.
187. You say, of the original grant of 4,244 acres, an area of 244 acres was a gift by the Maoris and should have been for the benefit of the Maori race only? – Yes.
188. Then we have the other grant of 1,745 acres? – Yes, that was a Maori grant. I might say further, in reference to the assistance I was to get from the Government, that Sir George Grey being removed to the Cape, the Ministry promised to fulfil Sir George Grey’s promise, and I think a second Ministry did so too. But, speaking from memory, in 1871 a new Ministry was formed who declared they would not give anything, and then I thought it was time for me to begin. The Native Minister being an old friend of mine, he happened to spend an evening with us. “In the morning he was walking round and he saw that a beginning was being made to put the foundation down of the main building. He came in to breakfast, and he said, “I see you are preparing to build.” I said, “Yes, it is about time, is it not?” He asked me, “Are you aware the Government have declared they will not give you any help.” “ Yes,” I said, “ I am perfectly well aware; after coming here under the promise of the Governor of the colony that he would provide funds, two Ministries, I think, having promised to carry out his engagements, now I have heard that the new Ministry, of which you are Native Minister, have declared they will not give anything I feel it is time for me to make a beginning.” He said, “Do you expect to carry it out?” I said, “I am not in the habit of beginning anything without seeing some hopes of success, and I think I shall succeed.” I want to say that we erected these buildings without any assistance whatever from the Government.
189. These old deeds you are talking about should be amongst the records in the possession of the colony? – They should be; but I am rather afraid they were deposited on the White Rocks in the “White Swan” when that vessel was wrecked when taking down the Government records from Auckland to Wellington.
190. What was your position when you first went on the property? – I was between two or three stools, I think, and neither one nor the other helped me.
191. And you did the best you could for the school? – Yes.
192. And they left you in that position? – Yes, for many years.
193. Did you farm the place? – I tried to farm part of it, and I tried to keep school in raupo houses. We kept various numbers which are stated in the reports, until I found it necessary for me, most reluctantly, to give it up.
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194. When was your position better defined? – Well, my position was denned between these three stools.
195. But when was your position satisfactorily defined by power of attorney or otherwise? – It was at an early date. Bishop Selwyn asked me to act as a trustee, and I said I would rather not. I said I would rather act for the trustees as a whole if they would trust me, and that if they would give me a free hand I would take the position, but not otherwise. They were evidently satisfied I should take that position, and they gave me a power of attorney, which I now produce [Exhibit No. 20]. I have had everything to do with it from that time.
196. When did you first become a tenant of the trustees? – It was some years afterwards. I never could understand why they made up their minds to lease the property. I was quite content to keep on as manager for the estate, and to get all I could out of it for the school; but they made up their minds that they would lease it, and I had given up all idea of having anything whatever to do with it until I was urged by some people to retain the property in my own hands. My reply was, “Well, if the trustees fix the rent they want for it I will then say whether I will take it up or no.” They did so, and I thought I saw my way to get along, and I accepted it.
197. When was that? – When they granted a lease for £500 a year.
198. Can you fix approximately the date when you became the tenant of the trustee? – I can give it to you exactly.
199. Was there a written lease? – Yes, a proper deed.
200. And how long did that continue in force? – I think seven years.
201. Have you got a copy of the first lease? – I am under the impression I handed them up to Mr. Cotterill, but I will not be positive. I will search for it.
202. Did that lease expire in the ordinary course of things? – Yes.
203. And during the time that lease was in existence did you pay the rent to anybody, or did you disburse the moneys yourself? – I disbursed the money. I was advancing money for everything at that time. We were heavily in debt.
204. Up to the time of the first lease you were simply there as agent or manager for the trustees, doing the best you could with the means at your disposal to educate these children? – Yes, to do the best I could for them and then for the property. We had ceased taking children at that time.
205. And then you became a tenant? – Yes.
206. And also agent for the trustees as well? – Yes, and superintendent of the educational work. I think we opened the school as it stands now in 1872.
207. Then you were agent for the trustees, and you have continued in that position right up to the present day? – Yes.
208. That is to say, the trustees never interfered with you in any way? – No, they placed confidence in me. Mr. Stokes was the visiting trustee from Wellington. He came up repeatedly. I satisfied the trustees from year to year that everything was right.
209. And ever since then they have allowed you to carry the work on on the same lines? – Yes. They have always been satisfied, and I have always said, “You have only to let me know at any time that you would like a change.”
210. Then a second lease was granted? – Yes; it was agreed by valuation.
211. And that was satisfactory to both sides? – Yes.
212. And then came a third lease in 1892, and then the last lease? – Yes.
213. Do you say, talking generally, that all these leases were fair leases, and leases which the trustees were justified in entering into on behalf of the people for whose benefit the trust was created? – I think so, certainly. I know that for some years I did not get the money back that I paid; but, still, the object of my life, I may say, was the school, and I was never averse to losing a little money on it.
214. Have you received any money or compensation whatever for your individual exertions on behalf of this trust? – None whatever. I received a moderate salary for the first few years from the Church Missionary Society for my services as a missionary, and then I released them from all expense on my behalf. That is some thirty or forty years ago. I have never had sixpence from any Department for the work I have done.
215. Did you advance any moneys or expend any moneys of your own on the property? – Yes, large sums of money. In most instances, I entered the heavier sums and worked them out of the place with interest, and the same with the money that I borrowed for erecting the buildings. There was a fund which I might call a family fund, provided to a great extent by an aunt of mine in England, a sister of the first Bishop of Waiapu. This fund was offered to me for Te Aute, and I declined. I said, “No. I have another bird to kill. I will take it, and I will give a moderate rate of interest on it: but there is another important thing to be taken in hand.” That was the Hukarere School for the girls, and I applied that money gradually, as it was wanted, to the erection of the Hukarere School and to the upkeep of it. I might mention that the Church Missionary Society gave £150 for each of the schools for salaries, but after some length of time – I cannot say exactly when – they said they felt obliged to discontinue it. The calls upon them were too heavy, and we managed to carry on without their assistance.
216. Does the trust property owe you any money in respect of advances or money expended on behalf of the trust? – No. There were some moneys paid to the Hukarere School, but they were gifts. There were also many gifts I gave to the Te Aute School that were never entered at all. For instance, in the early start 250 ewes were given us, and we could not supply meat out of them. I believe I supplied the whole of the meat for many years.
217. Did you keep books while acting as agent for the trustees, showing the receipts and expenditure? – Yes; everything was shown in the books, excepting what I gave.
218. The books do not show the money you gave? – No.
219. Do you say that any of the moneys you advanced were in the nature of loans? – Yes, some of them were.
S. WILLIAMS.] 17 G. – 5.
220. And these have been repaid and they appear in the books? – Yes.
221. But there were other sums of money you gave which have not been charged to any account? – Yes. I think the first I entered were those I gave to Hukarere.
222. These books and accounts are all available and will be produced later on? – I fancy so. I have not been very careful about the old books. I understood that after seven years they were not of any value. The accounts have all been rendered to and accepted by the trustees, and after that I did not attach much value to them.
223. In regard to the leases, it is insinuated that the last lease is not a fair lease: what do you say about that? – I do not know of anything in it that is unfair. I know I hesitated about accepting it. The matter has been referred to. I was annoyed to think that, after all I had done for the establishment and the money I had spent on it the trustees should add anything to the value fixed by their own valuator, who was considered perhaps as one who put on the highest values in the district. I did feel annoyed at the trustees adding another £100 a year to his figure. I took it as a sort of expression of want of confidence. I was quite prepared to abandon the property.
224. Do you consider the rent reserved by the lease – viz., £2,200 a year – is a fair rent, looking at the whole of the circumstances? – Undoubtedly so. I know a person who said, “They have put that value on it, but I do not know who is going to give it.” Fortunately, there has been a great change in the markets, and I admit I have had an advantage in it; but had the price of wool and meat changed to what it was not very far back, I certainly should have lost by it. I had the advantage of having the services of young men who were able to attend to the business. It was no thanks to me personally, beyond the general supervision and the risk.
225. Have the accounts which have been rendered to the General Synod and to the trustees from time to time been truthful and proper accounts? – Certainly. Very few of them have passed through my own hands. I keep people to work these things up. I have no chance of “cooking” the accounts if I wished to.
226. Do you remember the Royal Commission of 1869? – Yes, I remember it.
227. You gave evidence before that Commission? – Yes. I remember that Mr. Domett, when I told him what I could get for the first few years for the land, made the remark, “Why, Williams, the mountain is dwindling down into a molehill.” I replied, “Well, that was the position of affairs.”
228. You say there that in the accounts furnished to the trustees you made no charge for management? – That is so.
229. And you also say, “I have intimated to the trustees that, whilst I have no wish to force them to deal with the property summarily, I should be glad to be relieved of the management, which is a considerable tax on my time.” Did you so intimate to the trustees? – I told them that, but they preferred me to continue it. I said, “Well, if you have confidence in me I will carry it on.”
230. So that, practically, you have been the trusted manager from the very beginning of the trust: with the exception of the trustees, in whom the estate is vested, you have practically been manager during the whole time? – Yes.
231. The school has been under your management? – Yes.
232. You have had the appointment of teachers? – Yes
233. The system of education has also been under your control? – Yes.
234. And the school as we see it today is the result of your labours from the earliest times? – Yes.
235. And if it is a credit to the colony and to the district, you are entitled to that credit, I suppose? – I presume so.
236. No one else has helped you? – No. I looked upon the trust as a testimonial from the Crown. I had been of great assistance to the Crown on the west coast, and had received their thanks for unravelling difficulties, and helping them to open out a satisfactory system for the purchase of land. I remember Sir Donald McLean speaking to me. He was lamenting the fact that there was not an acre of land in the hands of the Government between Wellington and Auckland. I told him that if he would only change the system of land purchase I would promise him plenty. I told him he was only irritating the Natives and preventing them from working with him, and I said that if he would only adopt a different system he would soon have to legislate to prevent the Natives from denuding themselves of the whole of their land. He changed his system, and in about four years he had about 4,000,000 acres of land in the hands of the Government on the east coast, including Wairoa. “Well,” he said, “they will not adopt this system in Taranaki,” and I replied, “They are only making a rod for their own backs in Taranaki.”
237. Have you any desire now to continue in the management of this school and estate? – I am quite willing to do so, so long as I am trusted. It is not the same labour to me that it was some years ago. I have men in whom I have confidence in the different departments, and, at my age, I am in my eighty-fifth year – I can only give a sort of general superintendence to the business.
238. I take it you would like to continue on until the trustees take it over? – Yes, if I do not run against other people. I devoted my life to the work, and I am quite willing to go on so long as I have the strength.
239. It is part of our duty to ask for “the total receipts and disbursements for each year since the creation of the trust”: can you supply them? – You have most of them in print, but I can get Mr. Fielder to produce the complete lists.
240. The Commission would like to have your views on the question of technical education. Are you in favour of a modification of the present system in order to have technical education introduced into the school? – There was a good deal of correspondence with the Department on
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the subject, and we took it that the Department had conceded the point that we had remonstrated upon. But it appears the Department has gone from it.
241. Just tell us the position now with regard to technical education. I understand that you were willing that technical education should be introduced into the College? – Yes, decidedly,
242. And you have had correspondence with the Government on the subject, and you understood you had come to a compromise? – We understood so.
243. Will you tell us what were the terms you came to? – That we would give two hours and a half per week instruction. At one date that was conceded, but I suppose they have overlooked it. There is no reason why it should not be carried out. We say it is easy enough to increase the time to be devoted to technical education afterwards if we find it can be done. But the Department wishes us to give every scholar four hours per week instruction. We thought that was too much, and also that they should allow us discretionary power in the selection of the boys to whom we should give still more time to technical education. Our work has caused an immense deal of labour and anxiety, and I for one did not like the idea of jeopardizing the work of the school. I began keeping school at Otaki, and I had my boys doing a certain amount of work every day. Then we only gave half the day to school. Apparently the Maori parents got tired of it. They said, “We do not send our boys to you to teach them work; we can teach them at home. We send them to you to learn what we cannot teach them.” I know it was distasteful to them. The boys at Te Aute are kept hard at work one way or another. They do a great deal in assisting the housework and in keeping the place tidy, and so forth. You will go at certain times and see these boys with aprons on, working away like any cook or servant, and they do it cheerfully. It is taken out of their time. You never see the boys idling about. If they get out of school away they go to the play-ground. If the Department will allow us to try technical education at the reduced amount of time it would be easy enough to increase it afterwards, and if we saw we could do it judiciously we would be only too glad to do it. But, certainly, we are very jealous about risking the school.
244. May I put it in this way as regards technical education: that you would prefer to see the present system carried on, but if the Education Department presses for the introduction of technical education you will do all you can to meet them? – Certainly. We were in hopes a few years ago that the Government were going to have technical schools pure and simple. I would be glad to see the Maoris taught properly to work at carpentering and blacksmithing, or anything else, but not at the sacrifice of their education.
245. What is the system of admission of boys into the College? – Those who wish to come send in an application. Then we send them a printed form to fill in. I produce a copy of it [Exhibit No. 21]. We like to give boys of parents interested in the estate the first chance, and they are admitted according to circumstances. Those who apply early we take early; we give them preference. Each case is carefully weighed by Mr. Thornton and myself.
246. You confer with Mr. Thornton? – Yes.
247. What is the carrying-capacity of the College? – We would like to keep it down to seventy-five pupils if possible, but it is a difficult matter. We have been up to eighty-five, and then we had complaints about the sanitary condition of affairs. I said at that time that I must leave to the Department the responsibility of sending some of the boys home, and they did not like to accept such a responsibility.
248. How many boys have you now? – Seventy-two or seventy-three. There is one boy from Te Hauke who is away ill.
249. Is the College advertised in any way? – No. It advertises itself, I think. If it was we might get crushed out. The people understand generally to send their applications in. We try all we can to stimulate the Government schools, and I think we have done a great deal in that way.
250. Will you kindly give us shortly the history of the Hukarere School? – As I said before, we were able to draw out of the family funds used for buildings at Te Aute, and we started this school at Hukarere, and, as they were funds that we could exercise more control over, being private funds, we devoted them to this object. The first building we erected out of these funds, and carried it on as a distinct school – more or less a private school, until it was affiliated with Te Aute.
251. The property on which the school is built has been transferred to the Te Aute trust? – Yes.
252. It is an accretion to the trust, and Hukarere School was built by private moneys. and has been handed over as a free gift to the Te Aute trust? – Yes.
253. Does any of the income of the Te Aute Estate go to maintain that school? – Yes.
254. About how much? – It varies very much. It is all shown in the accounts.
255. Do any of the funds of the Te Aute Estate go to support any other school? – No.
256. I see in 1892 an Act was passed called the “Hukarere Native Girls’ School Act,” under which the trustees were authorised to expend a portion of the income of the Te Aute trust in maintaining the Hukarere School? – Yes.
257. Who keeps the accounts in connection with the Hukarere School? – Miss Williams has control over them, and she is assisted by others.
258. And these accounts are sent to the Diocese of Waiapu and to the Synod in the same way as the other accounts? – Yes.
259. They are audited and so forth? – Yes.
260. Who has the appointment of teachers in that school? – Miss Williams has the principal control. She confers with others. She often consults me upon the conduct of the school and the appointment of teachers.
261. You and Miss Williams are responsible for the teaching in that school? – Yes.
262. The trustees simply hold the property and leave you to manage it as in the past? – Yes. They have shown every confidence in me so far.
S. WILLIAMS.] 19 G. – 5.
263. Now, at that school technical education to a certain extent has been introduced – that is to say, the girls are taught general household duties, cooking, and washing, and ironing, and all that sort of thing? – Yes.
264. Have you ever had any suggestions from the Education Department with regard to Hukarere? – I think they get on very satisfactorily with Miss Williams. I may say we have made it our study from the very commencement of these schools to try and work harmoniously with the Department.
265. Both schools have been inspected annually? – Yes and the Inspector comes twice a year.
266. Have the reports of the Inspectors been, on the whole, satisfactory? – Perfectly. The first time Mr. Pope came he examined the ten Government scholars, and I said, “Surely you are not going to draw a distinction between the Government scholars and the others; you are not going to divide our school?” He replied, “Well, we have no authority to come in for any other purpose.” I said, “If that is so I shall have to send an application to the Department to request you to examine the whole of them.” He replied, “If that is the way you look at it nothing will give me greater pleasure than to do so.” And it has been so ever since. Mr. Bird: I would like to state that that point marks the entry of the Education Department into the Te Aute and Hukarere Schools. The Department did so at the request of the Archdeacon.
267. The Chairman.] When did the Government scholars first come to the schools? – I cannot remember the date, but I know it was the first time Mr. Pope came there to examine them.
268. The examination of the whole school by the Inspector was done at the request of yourself and the authorities? – Yes.
269. They have not forced themselves upon you, but have come at your request to examine the Whole school? – Yes, and it has been of great advantage to the school. I was asked by the late Royal Commission about the number of English boys at the school. I had rather too large a number of purely English boys on that occasion. I have got a list here of the purely English boys who have been admitted at different times [Exhibit No. 22]. There is a number of half-castes as well.
270. According to your lease the area of the three lots included in the lease is 6,863 acres? – It is as nearly as possible 7,000 acres. I think that terrier I gave you was very carefully drawn up by Mr. Cotterill.
271. I am taking the actual figures from your lease? – They might be anything.
272. I suppose, after farming the land all these years, you know the acreage? – Yes, it is about 7,000 acres.
273. How did the exchange between you and the trustees come about? – It was quite clear to me that the College ought to have that piece of ground to provide a frontage to the trust estate. I was talking the matter over one day with my nephew, and I told him I was bound to give it to the College. It is the key to the 1,745-acre block. There is no chance otherwise of having a homestead for that block. There is a precipitous hill on it.
274. Do you say it was in the interests of the trust that that exchange should be effected? – Decidedly.
275. And had you the interests of the trust at heart when you made that exchange? – Certainly, I saw it was for the benefit of the trust. I saw they would have a homestead then close to the railway-line and communication with the outer world, otherwise they would have nothing but a steep precipice on which to put a homestead. I was going to give the land to them, but my nephew said, “There are a few straggling pieces belonging to the College property, and they would be worth a great deal more in our property than if left straggling along the road as they do.” I said there would be no difficulty about it, and that we could arrange an exchange in that way. But the whole thing was proposed for the benefit of the trust.
276. Do you own or lease any lands in the immediate vicinity of the trust property? – Yes; the land reclaimed from the swamp. That work was a little piece of clerical engineering. The engineers told me it could never be done, and I said, “I think it can be done.” I said it would not only be of advantage to the school but to the whole district that it should be done. There were other settlers on the opposite side of the lake anxious to get it done, and we formed ourselves into a River Board, and, to the astonishment of the engineers as well as others, we did it.
277. Was the exchange with Mr. Stokes a fair exchange? – Yes, quite fair. It was to secure a good fencing-line. Bishop Abraham, one of the trustees, was with me when we arranged it.
278. Now, in your own exchange, were the trustees fortified by any outside opinion as to the value of the property they were getting and the value of the property they were giving? – I was looked upon as foolish for giving my piece of land to them.
279. But did the trustees take the opinion of an outside valuer? – I understood they consulted Mr. Baker. In joking, he said I would have to pay more rent for the estate, as I was giving a better bit of land. I can say conscientiously I gave a better bit of land than I took, but it was done entirely in the interests of the College.
280. I think I referred to the letting of the estate by public tender or public auction: do you think if that estate had been submitted to auction or to tender on the terms of your lease that the trustees would have got a better rent for it? – No. I would be rather inclined to follow the example of the Government, who, I believe, never go to auction. I would like to mention that my rents, you will observe, crept up gradually every seven years upon my own money invested in the property. Now, as a matter of business, I would never dream of taking a place for seven years that required a lot of money spent on it. However, as the school got the benefit I did not mind. But in an ordinary way I certainly would not take a lease for seven years and spend money on the place to improve the property, and then pay for the enhanced value due to my own improvements. The Government have some very valuable educational reserves in Dannevirke. They let these reserves on a twenty-one years’ lease at 1s. per acre, and the tenant is refunded or can claim all he has expended on improvements in a renewal of the lease. Now, that is widely different from
G. – 5. 20 [S. WILLIAMS.
my position, but I did what I did for the school, and I would not have done it for anybody else, as a matter of business. As I said on one of the previous Commissions, I could have obtained, if such had been my wish, a far more valuable property than the Te Aute Estate for less money than I spent on improving the estate. I could have taken the Te Aute School property for myself for a very small sum of money. To use a colonial phrase, I could have gridironed the place; I could have picked its eyes out and paid ¼d. an acre, which was the Government rental, for the intermediate pieces, and then gradually, as has been done by other people, made it my own property at from 5s. to 10s. per acre. I mention that as I have been charged with acting in a selfish way in the matter; otherwise I would not have alluded to it. Instead of buying when land was cheap – much of my money being locked up in the College estate – l had subsequently to pay many times as much for the land I bought for my family.
281. The present lease is for twelve years: can you tell us why the term of twelve years was fixed upon? – In this way: There was a difference between us. I told the trustees I was annoyed at them asking £100 a year more than was placed on the property by a competent valuer. At last I said I would, if they approved, take a lease for twelve years, that being the period when the other leases would terminate which I took up originally for Church purposes, and which were eventually thrown upon my hands because Bishop Abraham and the trustees did not like the liability.
282. Then, the twelve years fitted in with the termination of your Native leases? – Yes.
FRIDAY, 18TH MAY, 1906.
SAMUEL WILLIAMS further examined.
1. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to make some reference to your evidence of yesterday? – There are two or three points I desire to make clear. I did not catch the remark of Mr. Fielder yesterday, when giving his evidence, that there was no stock of any kind in connection with the estate. There were a number of sheep at the time of the first lease to me. There were six thousand sheep, and the winter-carrying capabilities being three thousand, they had to be reduced, principally by old ewes that were almost valueless. We never had done any culling before this. It will be seen in evidence that we had been obliged to sell many of our best ewes the year before, at the time of a heavy drought, when the sheep had to be removed, and we could only remove them by selling our young sheep, two- and four-tooth ewes, at 6s. per head, giving three years to the purchaser to pay for them. The price of sheep was so low at the time that some of the settlers questioned the advisability of putting the rams into the ewes. However, that was the position of the sheep, and it was left as a question to be arranged between myself and the trustees, as was also the question of buildings. Now, when the deed was conveyed to the trustees in Hawke’s Bay, Mr. Cotterill was the gentleman who communicated with me, and he looked upon it as rather hard lines that they could give me no assistance with regard to the buildings. he said, further, “We will do the best we can for you. We will give you the right to remove your buildings if we cannot deal with you. That will recognise your claim.” I looked at it in this way: he said they had no funds, and they did not know where to get funds from. The only way to provide funds was by stinting the school and reducing the number of scholars. That was averse to my feelings, and I thought we would just go on as we were rather than stint the school in any way whatever. I may say that while there is a liability in reference to the stock, there is a much greater liability in reference to the buildings, to say nothing of fencing, draining and grassing of the run, which go with the land.
2. With regard to stock, you say the trust owns no stock now? – The tenant is responsible for the value of this stock when taken over.
3. Can you tell us what that responsibility amounts to in numbers or value? – I leave myself in the hands of the trustees; that is my feeling about it.
4. How do you estimate the value of the stock? – It has never been gone into. It is a liability that is standing over in the same way that there has been no estimate of the liability of the trust for buildings.
4A. Do the books show the stock belonging to the trust, and the progeny of that stock? – The progeny, of course, would be mine, as tenant. It is only the liability at the time.
5. As against that you say there is the amount of money you have put in in improvements? – Having given the improvements I cannot charge for them, with the exception of the buildings. Mr. Cotterill said the trustees could only allow me to remove my buildings; that was all they could do for me. That is poor consolation for a man, and, of course, such an arrangement would not be [be] entered into as a matter of business. I put a few thousands of pounds into the place.
6. We noticed the other day a large dwelling is being put up? – That is a lease which is being arranged with the trustees. It is covered by my lease to the end of the term; but the gentleman who is building it contemplates arranging with the trustees for an extended lease.
7. That building is not being put up by you? – Not as part of my establishment.
8. But it is on the land leased to you? – Yes.
9. And the person putting it up is communicating with the trustees, with your approval, for a lease of a portion of land? – Yes. When you were there you may have noticed the overseer’s house and the men’s accommodation and the dining-room and the wool-shed. I may say I have had no money for these buildings at all.
10. We could not understand who was building that large new house on a twelve years’ lease? – I am in this unfortunate position, that being on public ground I am obliged to keep my friends at a distance. My son-in-law wished to come there, and I advised him to arrange with the trustees.
S. WILLIAMS.] 21 G. – 5.
11. That building and the school building proper and the chapel are the only buildings you have nothing to do with? – Yes.
12. All the other buildings you claim as your buildings? – Yes. Mr. Cotterill looked upon it as only a shadow to show he recognised my claim. He said there was no chance of the trustees giving me anything; and I may say I never expected to get anything.
13. Was your power of attorney, except by the death of the trustees, ever revoked in any way? – No.
14. And you continue to act under it? – Yes.
15. It is the foundation of your authority as agent for the trustees? – Yes.
16. You remember the first inquiry made by the Government in 1862? – Yes. The report was presented by Mr. Henry Russell, of Waipukurau, who was a member of the Legislative Council [Exhibit No. 23].
17. That was a general report on the position of the trust and the school, together with certain accounts, up to the end of 1861? – Yes.
18. Do you wish to say anything in regard to that report? – No, I think it is fairly correct. There was something said about a banking account not being kept. I may say that I was advancing the whole of the money for the carrying-on, not only of the estate, but of the school, and a sort of what you might call a merchant’s account was kept, where the interest was worked out. Instead of paying the money into a bank to lie idle it was worked on the principle of a merchant’s account, in order to economize interest. But for some years a banking account has been kept, into which all funds have been paid, whether for rent or any other purpose, and that is operated on as a banking account for the Te Aute School proper. It is operated on by myself, and by Mr. Thornton under authority from myself. The question has been raised about cutting up the estate and letting it in small sections. I have always been open to facilitate any arrangement of that kind that the trustees might think proper to adopt. It has been asked for in the House, and I said I would raise no difficulty in the way. When the leases were renewed here, Mr. Cotterill was the gentleman, I think, I spoke to. I said, “If there is the least wish to let the property in sections do not let me stand in your way. I am prepared to withdraw in favour of any new proposal you wish to make.”
19. I suppose your wish is still that the school should have the maximum benefit out of the endowment? – Yes, certainly. Something was said about letting the land for fourteen years in small sections. I may say I do not know any person who would accept a lease for fourteen years when he would have to make accommodation for his family, possibly. The Government have never contemplated such a lease. They would have to let the land on longer leases to enable the tenants to get any benefit from it. I must say that even when letting it as a whole I could not meet anybody who would look at a lease. Everybody was bent on getting a freehold. They passed this by. They saw they could pick up Government land. They could, to use a colonial phrase, pick the eyes out of it and gridiron it by paying id. an acre for the land, which was the Government charge in Hawke’s Bay. There was no person in the whole district who would have looked at the Te Aute property. I leave the question of the Hukarere gifts to Mr. Fielder. He mentioned that he believed there were other moneys that had been paid by myself. I may say I got tired of riding dead horses. I thought I would give this school a live one, and I made a free gift of the money in order to give the ladies – who were giving up their time to the school – every facility for carrying on their work with comfort. With regard to my being placed in the position in which I find myself before this Commission, I referred to the fact of Sir George Grey wishing me to go to Hawke’s Bay in order to secure the peace of the country, and perhaps I might be allowed to say that I have the satisfaction of knowing I have been the means of saving an immense amount of bloodshed between the races. On one occasion I might refer to, I rode forty miles and came in and warned the authorities in Napier, pointing out that a plot was being laid for an attack on Napier. I came in and insisted – perhaps beyond my authority – upon the forces being turned out to go and surround these people before daylight. Facts came into my possession on the following morning to show that it was the intention of these people to have attacked Napier upon the following night; and had the intention of the authorities to defer any movement until the following evening been adhered to, the whole of our forces would have been out in the country at the very time these Natives planned to be in Napier. There are very few people in Napier – perhaps hardly one at the present day – who quite realise the danger they were in at that time. Even Sir Donald McLean told me, after the massacre in Poverty Bay, that he only then realised the danger they were in. I feel I have done my best to serve my country, and at the same time to carry out my duty as a clergyman. This occurrence took place in October, 1866, at Omarunui.
20. You knew the Natives up here intimately, and you were on good terms with them? – Yes.
21. And you were in a position to gauge their minds and feelings when this cession was made to the Crown: Will you say again what was it that really influenced the Natives in giving that land? – What influenced them undoubtedly was the fact that they wanted to get me to come here for their benefit. You put that question to me. You will find that on one occasion Wi Tako was put forward to move an inquiry in the House about the Te Aute trust. The Natives had no idea at all that an inquiry was to be held. As one of the Native members of the House told me, it was done by the Europeans, and Wi Tako, as mover of the resolution, was present at the inquiry. Sir John Richardson, after asking other questions, saw Wi Tako at the lower end of the room, and he asked him if he had any questions to put. His answer is not recorded in the House, but I will give it to the Commission. Wi Tako had his interpreter, and he was asked, “Have you any inquiry to make?” He said, “Yes, I wish to ask what object the Natives had in view when they gave this land.” The reply was made by one of the members of the Committee: “It was given to the Bishop of New Zealand for educational purposes.” Wi Tako replied, “Yes, that is very likely the opinion that is running in the minds of Europeans. I want to know what the Maoris’ view was on the subject.” Sir John Richardson asked me for a reply. He said, “Perhaps you
G. – 5. 22 [S. WILLIAMS.
can help us out of the difficulty.” I said, “I do not hesitate to say it was a free gift to myself, and I directed it should be conveyed to the Crown in order that it might be Crown-granted to the Bishop of New Zealand for educational purposes.” Then Wi Tako said, “That is as I understood it. Now we find Mr. Williams in the position of a man who has had a valuable horse presented to him. He allows that horse to fall into other hands, and then, forsooth, when Mr. Williams wants to ride it, he is charged horse-hire for his own horse. Here we find Mr. Williams paying rent for the land that was given to himself.” That answer was not recorded at the time. I was younger then that I am now, or I should have asked Sir John Richardson to allow it to be recorded. After we went out of the room the Natives were there, and they were laughing at Wi Tako at having allowed himself to be made a fool of by the Europeans.
22. Have the trustees taken an interest in the management of the estate and school generally? – They visit it periodically. In the days of the old trustees Mr. Robert Stokes visited it regularly, and I think Mr. Hunter went over it once. They always expressed themselves perfectly satisfied with everything done.
23. Did you confer with the trustees from time to time on any matters of importance relating to the trust? – Certainly, always, as I do here now with the present trustees.
24. Is there anything you can think of that you would like to bring before us? – I cannot think of anything else.
25. Would you mind stating again your opinion as to the joint education of the two races: Whether in your opinion it is satisfactory, and can be done with satisfaction to both races? – In a school carried on as Te Aute has been carried on, we find them work harmoniously together. We have had no trouble in that way. But for years, and at the time these grants were made, such a state of affairs was looked upon as impossible; and, as the Bishop told me, he looked upon it that it might be possible in the case of the children of poor people who were living amongst the Maoris. The idea in amalgamating the school was to go beyond that. We thought there might be people who would not mind their children being educated with the Maoris. It was never contemplated that there should be a school as we have it now at Te Aute College. In fact, one leading Church Missionary man, who had spent his life almost amongst the Maoris, and had worked with them, and who had an educational establishment of his own, told me it was impossible. I met him at Dunedin, and he said, “It is a waste of time to attempt it, Williams. You cannot do anything with it.” I replied, “You do not know anything about it. I think you are talking about a subject you do not understand.” “Oh,” he said, “it is a waste of time.” I said to him, “You are coming up to the Wairarapa on your way home. Just come on by the coach and see the school for yourself.” When he arrived he asked to be allowed to ask a few questions. This was just shortly after Mr. Thornton had joined. I said, “Do not sound the words at all; just put them on the blackboard.” Mr. Thornton wrote the word that the Archdeacon proposed, and the boy said it out distinctly. He winked at me, and he tried again and again and again. Then he said, “I would like to ask a few questions on grammar. Well, now boys, supposing I were to say, ‘The baker has risen the price of bread,’ would that be right?’ ” “No,” said the boys. “What ought it to be, then?” They replied, “The baker has raised the price of bread”; and he winked at me again. He went on and asked them questions in geography, and so on, and he came out and said, “Well, Williams, I withdraw all my remarks, I never expected to see it, and I admit this is the best Maori school I ever entered.” I was careful with the masters. I had a very good master before; but as Mr. Thornton is present I do not wish to express my opinion; but I say this to the Commission, that I feel exceedingly grateful to Mr. Thornton for the valuable assistance he has given me, and for lifting a heavy burden off my own shoulders. I might say also that I do not think anything has happened in New Zealand that has done more to break down the barrier between the two races than the education of these young people at Te Aute and at Hukarere, with the addition of St. Stephen’s at Auckland. We teach them always to be respectful to Europeans, and I believe they are all respected in the community of Napier generally.
26. I notice in the Appendix to 1862, and right up to date, that the heading in reference to this trust is, “Native School Report on Te Aute Native Industrial School.” Now, in your opinion, apart altogether from the language of the trusts, do you think that the Europeans have any real claim to participate in the advantages of education which this trust provides? – My own feeling is that the English, with all the assistance they get, ought to show a generous spirit and allow the Natives to have their own single school for the higher education of themselves. I have always felt sorry when I saw any attempt at all to snatch from the Maoris the benefits of this institution. As I have said, it was never entertained for a moment in the olden days. I never knew there was any distinction in the language of the trusts until years afterwards. It was given to me for the Maoris; and Sir George Grey, in his conversation with the Maoris, represented me as the taniwha who inhabited a hole in Ruataniwha. The taniwha was a sort of dragon, and Sir George catechised the Natives about it. “Who caught the dragon?” They said, “Tara of Roto-a-tara,” which was his headquarters. “How did he manage it?” “Well,” they replied, “the different tribes were all bent on catching the taniwha. Some of them went chasing him all over the country; some of them laid an ambush for him, but Tara said, ‘that is not the bait to use. You will never catch the taniwha that way.’ What did Tara do? He laid a trap in which he put a variety of bait. He got fish, eels, birds, rats, and all sorts of delicacies for this taniwha. The taniwha kept shy for a long time, but at last he got into the trap, took the bait, and so Tara caught the taniwha. Well, Williams is the taniwha. There are applications from different parts of the country for Williams. The Ngatiraukawa, the West Coast, and the Poverty Bay Natives want him, and you people want him. ‘Well, it is no use running after him, and it is no use asking him to come here unless you give him a good bait. Now, his taste runs in education. If you will give half the bait I will give the other half.” I may remark that the Natives had. previously engaged to give whatever land was necessary if I would come. “Then,” he said, “I will give 4,000 acres
S. WILLIAMS.] 23 G. – 5.
if you will give an equivalent, and I will give money to help the institution. “The Natives took the matter up, and agreed to do so. But, as I said before, it was never contemplated that Europeans and Maoris would work together in the harmonious way in which they are doing at Te Aute.
27. Do you know whether there is any wish on the part of the Natives that their schools should be kept distinct from the European schools? – They have complained sometimes about the Europeans coming there when they were wanting more room; but I do not think there is any real objection to Europeans to a moderate extent. I think if they felt they were being edged out they would object very strongly.
28. Your opinion is that this really is a Native school? – Yes, it was always thought of as a Native school, just as St. Stephen’s School, which, as I said yesterday, was conducted under Sir George Grey’s eye. He visited it constantly, as did the Bishop also and they knew the meaning of the grants. I am told they occasionally had an English boy at St. Stephen’s, but nobody looks upon it as a school equally for Europeans and Maoris.
29. I suppose you agree that our European schools should be open to them if they choose to go? – I should hope so.
30. But they would like to have schools of their own? – Up to a certain standard they certainly would prefer it. There is an instance before the Commission of one of our scholars, Mr. Ngata, going in for higher education and into the English schools entirely.
31. With reference to the part of the endowment which was given by the Government, had that land been acquired by the Government from the Natives before it was granted? – Yes; it was part of the land purchased when the country was opened out.
32. Was the land given by the Natives given by any particular tribe? – Yes, it was given by the Natives at Te Aute.
33. What tribe was that? – The Ngatiwhatuiapiti.
34. Are you quite sure that the original cession by the Natives to the Government of the endowment was by a deed in writing? – Yes.
35. You saw the deed yourself? – I saw the thing signed.
36. Do you remember who was the attesting witness? – I cannot remember. I think there was more than one deed. I am speaking from memory, and it was a thing I took no particular part in.
37. You say you walked round the boundaries of the Native grant with the chief? – Yes.
38. The original grant says 4,244 acres? – That was the Government grant. I did not walk that. I indicated the position that I thought was best. I only walked the Maori grant.
39. You stated yesterday that 244 acres of this piece was given by the Natives? – Yes. The Ngatiwhatuiapiti said, “The dry land we give to you, and the wet [the lake] we reserve.”
40. What I want to be clear about in regard to this grant of 4,244 acres is this: You say the 4,000 acres were given by the Government, and the 244 acres were given by the Natives? – Yes.
41. Does the Native grant that you walked refer to the 1,745 acres ? – Yes. Whether the line is in every respect exactly on the points pointed out to me I cannot say. I was not here when it was surveyed.
42. At the time this grant was issued it was not actually surveyed? – Not when the land was discussed.
43. So the actual boundaries were afterwards ascertained by survey, and the acreage might be somewhat diminished or increased accordingly? – It is right, I think. I have not heard any complaints for forty years or more.
44. With reference to this grant of 1,408 acres [Exhibit No. 5], that area was granted by the Natives, and this portion of 870 acres was afterwards reconveyed to the Crown, and the piece of land to the south of the reserve, containing 382 acres, was given in exchange? – Yes; but the original grant was for the Maori race, and the exchange was given for both races. It was an arbitrary act on the part of the Commissioner. He admitted he did it, and he said it was because the boundary had been altered and the Natives had given trouble. I told him I had been carefully over it when it was pointed out by the Natives, and that I went over it after the survey was made by the surveyor. I took the surveyor round, and I pointed out to him sometimes a stone and sometimes a tree. I asked him, “You remember me pointing that out to you?” “Yes.” “And you remember that point?” “Yes.” “And you remember that point?” “Yes.” I asked him then, “How comes it that the boundaries are away from these points?” He made some excuse, and he said it was near enough for practical purposes. I said that was all very well; but I once asked the Chief Land Surveyor, “Have you ever known a single instance where a Maori has changed the boundary-line?” He thought for some time, and he said, “No.” I replied, “Neither have I. I have had plenty of difficulties to unravel between you people and the Maoris and I say I never once knew a Maori to alter a boundary-line.” However, the excuse made was that the Maoris objected, and also, with a view to making it as widely applicable as possible, the intention of the grant was altered. I think you will find that in previous inquiries I pointed that matter out. If anything could be done by the Commission to rectify that I think it would be an act of justice to the Maoris.
45. I suppose the adjoining land has since been Crown-granted, and is now in private hands? – Since then it has. We conveyed it to the Crown, and they had it in their own hands to deal with. But the application of the trust could be changed.
46. Among the deeds there is an agreement between Mr. Stokes and the trustees with reference to a boundary-fence? – Yes.
47. Is this the agreement Mr. Stokes signed? – Yes [Exhibit No. 24].
48. Is that boundary-fence still adhered to? – Yes. Bishop Abraham, one of the trustees, was with me when I went over the land with Mr. Stokes.
49. Mr. Hogg.] Who controls the system of education at Te Aute: is it the trustees or yourself? – On any question of importance we consult the trustees, otherwise it has generally been left in
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my hands. I never had any difficulty, but if there was a difficulty I should submit it to the trustees as a matter of course.
50. The object of the trust, of course, was simply to promote education amongst Maori children, without defining whether it should be higher education or primary education? – That is so; to do the best we could.
51. When the school was first established, was it a primary school? – Yes, we had to begin with the alphabet sometimes.
52. But you did not carry on secondary classes at that time? – No; we tried to teach them habits of industry, and to get them to do work; but, as I said before, the Natives objected to it. I tried to get them to cultivate their own food; but in the days of free education they followed the example of the Europeans.
53. They do not do that any longer? – No. We make them do a good deal of work on the place in helping to grow vegetables, and so forth, and in keeping the place tidy. At Otaki I tried to get them to cultivate their own food; but after all I think the boys’ labour amounts to nothing, practically. They are as bad as English boys.
54. What is the qualification for, admission? – Perhaps I will allow Mr. Thornton to explain that. We receive all applications. We encourage them to send in applications. Then we send them a paper with questions on it, and when we get these replies in Mr. Thornton and myself take each case into consideration and act as fairly as we can according to our judgment.
55 Are any fees paid? – We do not get very much out of the Maoris, but when the parents of English boys, and sometimes of half-caste boys are in a position to pay, we feel it is only right they should pay something, at all events. But we do not exclude a boy because he cannot pay.
56. There is no defined system of fees at all? – We take each case into consideration, and settle it on its merits. I might say that preference is given to the local Natives, if possible – to those connected with the grants. We think it only fair to give them an advantage.
57. I presume preference is given to Maori applicants when there are vacancies? – Yes, as a rule. I think the fairest way to put it is to say that we treat each case on its merits.
58. Is there an age-limit or an educational limit: when they are considered to be fully educated and must leave the school? – Even in these matters each case is treated on its merits. We like to do the best we can for the boys before they go. We find after they have been with us a certain time that they try to get into some means of earning a livelihood, and then they leave us after a reasonable time.
59. You have no difficulty in getting rid of them? – We try to lead them out.
59A. When they do leave school, do they usually give a good account of themselves? – I think, on the whole, they manage very well. We have disappointments sometimes like you have in every line of life, but on the whole I think we have every reason to be grateful.
60. The education they receive is classical, is it not? – Some of them. There are different classes, of course, but I think I will leave that matter to Mr. Thornton.
61. Then, from your own observation, you believe that the majority have been successful in life after leaving the school? – I think so; at all events, a very fair proportion of them; and in taking them up and helping them into any other work we find that the educated Maori is decidedly better material to work with than the uneducated Maori. We help some of them into the farming line. I have taken a great deal of interest and trouble in getting some of them on the land, particularly on the east coast. Mr. Ngata can give you some information about that. We have taken a great deal of trouble to get them to work their land and farms and sheep-runs, and it is much easier to do that with the educated boys than it is with the uneducated. I have lost at times a good deal of money in helping the Maoris forward. In the uneducated Maori his own immediate requirements are uppermost, and if there is money given him to help him in his farming, it will be wasted on horse-racing and the totalisator.
62. Then you consider the fact of them being well educated does not interfere with their doing useful work afterwards? – Not in the least. I think it is the same with some of our races. My experience, and the experience of those working under me, has been that the educated European will do better work than the uneducated one, and it is the same with the Maoris.
63. Do you know whether they are taught book-keeping or account-keeping? – It is taught sometimes in their education. We endeavour to educate them so as to make them as useful citizens as possible.
64. Are they taught to keep their own accounts, supposing they have the handling of money afterwards? – I think I will leave that department to Mr. Thornton.
65. With regard to the land itself: Do you know whether there has been any desire expressed by the community to get that land cut up and divided into farms? – I am aware of the applications sent to the House, but I do not think they originated with the parties who signed them.
66. I suppose the land is well watered? – Yes, fairly well. Some parts are better watered than others. There is a good deal that will puzzle you to find a drink for an animal.
67. A good deal of the soil is first class? – A fair quantity, I think. The sketch that accompanied Mr. Barron’s letter will give you a very good indication as to where the good land is. Mr. Coleman was with him, and he said a good deal of the land was very poor indeed, and it has always proved so, and I notice Mr. Barron has very carefully excluded all that. I said to him, “You are evidently a judge. I suppose you want the land that is in the valley near the railway.” He shrugged his shoulders.
68. The reason I am asking these questions is this: you are aware there is a great desire for close settlement? – Yes.
69. Do you think a considerable part of that property could be made into dairy farms, for instance? – I think dairy farms for Hawke’s Bay are an absolute mistake.
70. Why? – We want more rain. The west coast is the place for dairy-farmers.
S. WILLIAMS.] 25 G. – 5.
71. There is not sufficient rain? – No. I knew a man who started at Waipukurau, he was going to have a grand dairy farm. He ran it for a couple of months, and then it evaporated. The climate is too dry. There is one man near us on some of the best land in Hawke’s Bay for dairy-farming, and he told me he was getting tired of it. He advertised an auction in selling off his dairy farm, and he provided vehicles to bring the people to his auction, and not a person turned up.
72. Is this a good district for fruit? – It is a very fair place, but I do not think it is equal to the Hastings plains.
73. Do you think it is equal to Hatuma? – Very possibly, parts of it. I never heard Hatuma was a good example.
74. It is stated the settlers there are doing very well? – Well, they have been doing very well almost everywhere during the last few years. I am afraid some of them will tell a different story presently.
75. Assuming that the land was cut up, do you think it would have an injurious effect on the school? – I will leave that to the trustees, I think. I have always expressed myself as perfectly ready to retire from the occupation if the trustees wanted to make a different use of it.
76. With regard to the Girls’ School at Hukarere, is the same curriculum taught there: I suppose the higher branches are absent? – Pretty nearly.
77. Do you think that school would thrive any better in the country than in the town? – I should not think so. I may say that I was responsible for placing the school there, and one of the principal reasons that weighed with me was the fact that I could get the services of ladies who had their heart and soul in the work. These services were given free of any charge, and that was a very important point. If you put the school away in the country, unless you have a large establishment, a sort of feeling of loneliness comes on which is fatal to Maori schools. Here they have the advantage of coming into the town; they come to the services in the town, they see their white sisters and brothers, and they have people coming to the school and encouraging them in their work. All this goes a very great way.
78. Mr. Lee.] You will see that No. 6 of the order of reference of our Commission asks us “Whether the school or schools are so conducted as to give to the children contemplated in the trust the greatest benefit, especially whether there is sufficient provision for manual and technical education of the children of both races, and especially of Maoris.” Now, so far as that part of our Commission goes, are you of opinion that the school at present is fulfilling the conditions specified here with regard to manual and technical education? Is sufficient manual and technical education given in the schools? – I should say at the present time it is imperfect. We have been waiting and hoping for some satisfactory plan to be agreed upon. We thought that we had attained our object when the Department conceded our request, but the Department, whether through a mistake or not I do not know, to our utter surprise went back on it.
79. May I ask whether you or the trustees are willing to take the direction of the Department in the matter of the education given in the College? – We have endeavoured from the first to try and meet their views, but I may say we remonstrated and asked that we should not be bound to give four hours per week to this instruction to every scholar. We asked for some discretion, and the proposal was, to begin with, that two hours and a half per week should be agreed upon. Of course, we are quite open to gradually increase that time if it should be found advisable.
80. You will excuse my saying so, but it might be said that no technical education is at present given in either the boys’ or the girls’ schools; that the education at present given is of a manual character as distinct from the technical? – Yes.
81. I understand you are quite willing to take the direction of the Education Department in regard to anything that may be more up to date in the way of technical instruction? – I am sorry anything has happened to convey a different impression. It has been our object and wish from the first to work harmoniously with the Government Department, and we are prepared, as far as is necessary, even to sacrifice our own particular wishes if it is of advantage to do so. But, I may say, so far as my own feelings are concerned, I am exceedingly jealous for an institution which has cost me so much anxiety and trouble. I think we should begin with moderation at first.
82. How long has Latin been taught in the school? – Mr. Thornton can give you an answer about that.
83. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that the Education Department should think that instruction in agriculture would be more beneficial to the pupils than the present instruction in Latin, would you or the trustees be likely to fall in with such a view? – l may say, generally, that my view of the question is simply this: you would want a different class of teachers, and it would interfere almost entirely with the present education of the institution to start farming work there. And I must say at the same time that the Natives so far have objected to it. I know it is hardly necessary from my own experience. I see Maori youths ploughing and working their land as well as any Europeans alongside them, and they say, “We can teach them this ourselves. We send them to you not to be taught what they can learn at home, but to teach them what they cannot get at home.”
84. The same thing was said to me many years ago by European parents in regard to sewing, but, at the same time, the parents did not teach the sewing. Of course, agricultural instruction would not mean only manual work, but would include the elements of chemistry and botany, and a good deal of lecture-work and practical laboratory – work by the pupils? – Teaching of that kind would be on the manual side, mainly. To put it generally, we should be very glad indeed to work harmoniously with the Department in carrying out any views of that kind.
85. Do you think it is desirable to continue teaching Latin just now? – It is not so extensive as all that. I think the amount of classical education is harmless.
4 – Gr. 5.
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86. Mr. Ngata.] With regard to the position of the trustees: practically they have nothing to do with the educational work of the College? – Not unless it is referred to them
87. They have been more concerned really with the management of the property? – I think they are interested in all its branches.
88. I mean they have not taken any direct part in advising those immediately connected with the work of the College in the direction in which the education should take? – No, except in giving their general opinion. They have trusted it more to Mr. Thornton and myself.
89. The Chairman.] I have been asked by the Inspector of Native Schools to ask you when the school was first established on the property? – It is given in Mr. Russell’s report [Exhibit No. 23].
90. I suppose you superintended that school single-handed? – Yes. A part of the time I had a young man with me.
91. Then it was closed in 1859? – I think so.
92. And then for a number of years nothing was done? – That is so. Then I was constantly badgered with letters and papers, but I made up my mind I would not open again until I could do it satisfactorily. If there was any mistake I opened it a little too soon, and I was riding dead horses a little too long. Still, I was advised to open with a small makeshift place, and treat them as day scholars. I thought it would be a mistake unless I could begin with some possibility of carrying on a satisfactory school.
93. What was taught in the school at first? – We had the raw material at the beginning. We had a good deal of the alphabet, and so on. We grew up gradually.
94. Who was in charge of the school before Mr. Thornton? – Mr. Reynolds. He was a very good teacher.
95. Mr. Ngata.] I suppose it is fair to say that Mr. Thornton and you are practically responsible for the system of education now prevailing at Te Aute? – Yes.
96. Can you define the position of the Education Department with regard to the College? – It is under their supervision, and they have assisted us very materially by good advice. We have looked upon them to a great extent as the father of the institution.
97. For many years I think you have tried to work the College in with the general Native-school system? – Yes.
98. Can you specify the objects aimed at by yourself and Mr. Thornton in the Te Aute system of education – I mean, with reference to the Maori people? – I have aimed at working it as high as I could. I would, perhaps, rather leave that to Mr. Thornton. In fact, I may say that Mr. Thornton has relieved me of the burden of the work, as I am getting up in years.
99. Your principal aim has been to make the institution as useful as possible to the Native race? – Certainly.
100. Part of the object of the inquiry is to find out whether the present system of education carries out that purpose, and is of the best possible use to the Native people? – You perhaps know more about the system of education at Te Aute than I do; but I would say it has been of the greatest assistance in stimulating the Government village schools throughout the country.
101. A good deal has been said about the education of children of both races: you say that, so far, the system has worked harmoniously in the co-education of the two races? – Yes.
102. Would you favour any extended admission of European boys into the College, or any increase of the proportion that is admitted? – I think the previous answer I gave was that I should be rather sorry to see it extended – at all events, to the detriment of the Maori race, considering the immense advantages the English have in their various institutions.
103. Mr. Lee.] Do you not think that the presence of a few Europeans amongst the Maoris would be very beneficial in assisting them to acquire English? – I think in moderation it is strongly beneficial. I think it has led to both races respecting each other more.
104. Mr. Ngata.] I cannot help thinking there is something else at the back of this agitation for the inclusion of European boys into the College: would you go so far as to say that it is an assertion of right for admission into the institution under the terms of the grant? – I do not think it was ever entertained by the donors or originators of the trusts. It was always represented to me that it was inserted to prevent the absolute exclusion of Europeans. I have referred to St. Stephen’s School. Sir George Grey was the originator of that school, and he constantly visited it, and had it under his own observation. There was only an occasional English boy admitted. I took that as interpreting the mind of the donor.
105. If you had any large proportion of European boys in Te Aute, say, a third, would any difficulty be experienced in working such a mixed institution? – It is exceedingly likely that the position of affairs would be changed from what it is now. It works harmoniously as we have been carrying it on; but I have dreaded myself the possibility of throwing the school over altogether and excluding the Maoris, or making it so distasteful to them that the Maoris would not come.
106. There are other institutions where they are supposed to have children “of our British subjects of both races” besides Te Aute? – Yes; it was a general open trust that was made use of.
107. Do you know the circumstances in regard to the Wanganui trust? – Yes, it is one of these trusts. It was a purely Maori institution originated by Sir George Grey, and the money was provided for the buildings and for draining the property out of the Government grant for Maori education; and when the building was burned down by accident, a writ by Sir George Grey was issued to provide £1,000 out of the same fund for the rebuilding of the Wanganui College, which, however, was not made use of.
108. Can you say whether at Wanganui there has ever been any large proportion of boys other than Europeans? – Practically none of late.
109. They have never had a Commission of inquiry in regard to Wanganui? – Not to my knowledge.
S. WILLIAMS.] 27 G. – 5.
110. Mr. Eliot.] In order to assist us in looking up old deeds you referred yesterday to Mr. Cooper: was that Mr. G. S. Cooper, who lived at Waipukurau? – Yes; he was a member of the Land Purchase Department, and was also in the Colonial Secretary’s Office.
111. Then, Mr. Cooper got the signatures to the deed of cession of the Native land? – Yes.
112. To the Crown or to yourself? – To the Crown. I directed it should be conveyed to the Crown, with a view to its being Crown-granted to the Bishop of New Zealand.
113. In the previous Commission of 1878 you stated in evidence, “Any possible benefit derived by the cattle has been compensated for by meat supplied to the establishment, and by depasturage for sheep belonging to the establishment in dry seasons upon another run not belonging to the trust.” It would appear that meat was supplied to the school from the run in those days. Is anything supplied to the school from the estate now? – Milk is supplied free, and meat is supplied at a moderate rate.
114. You told us yesterday about a reclamation: was it your own land that was reclaimed, or part of the trust estate? – That was private property. A little bit was on the estate.
115. But, owing to the drainage, the lands of the estate lying into the swamp would be improved? – Yes, it improved some parts, but not to any great extent. The work was done by a River Board, which is still in existence. About 5,000 acres of land are rated, but there are only five ratepayers.
116. You hold other leases direct from the Natives? – Yes. I took up the land in the first instance with a view to raising funds for church purposes. Then Bishop Abraham and the trustees became rather anxious at the large amount of money required for improvements and for the run, and so on, and they tried to give it up. I said, “If you give it up I shall lose a large sum of money, and I shall carry it on myself,” which I did.
117. Seeing that the Natives are largely interested in this trust, would it, in your opinion, be desirable to alter the trust and give the Natives representation on it? – If you get a suitable man I should say there should be no difficulty at all. .
118. Do you think it would be an advantage to have the Natives represented? – I do not think so.
119. In this first report of Mr. Russell’s [Exhibit No. 23], it is said there is a sum, in all, of £1,035 11s. 6½d. due by the school estate to you? – Yes.
120. Has that all been repaid by the trust? – Yes.
121. And at present there is no debt at all? – No.
122. Can you give us some idea of how much of your private money has been expended on the trust estate? – Several thousands.
123. Would it be £10,0002 – It is highly probable.
124. The Chairman.] The Inspector of Native Schools has asked me to ask you whether the parents of the boys now at school or the parents nowadays object to manual and technical education? – Not so far as we give it now.
125. Do you say they would object if the classical branch of the education was detrimentally affected by the teaching of technical and manual education? – I certainly think they would.
126. They want the boys given a classical education? – No, not a classical education. But they would not like to see the ordinary education interfered with; and they do feel a pride in seeing their sons take a higher position. They would not like to risk it. I may say there are vague ideas nowadays as to what technical instruction is.
127. Mr. Eliott.] Is any trace kept of the girls after leaving Hukarere? – Yes; they are always followed up by the teachers, who take a lively interest in them. It is just the same with the boys.
128. They know perfectly well where they are, and what they are doing? – Yes; they are constantly communicating with them.
JAMES BECKETT FIELDER further examined.
129. The Chairman.] With regard to the minute-book of the trustees you produced yesterday, do you now produce a copy of that minute-book? – Yes [Exhibit No. 25].
130. Have you been able to find any other minute-book? – I have not; but I am going to communicate with the diocesan secretary in Wellington asking him if he will look up the old records, and forward me all papers in reference to Te Aute. I communicated previously both with Auckland and Wellington in reference to the old records of the diocese.
131. You have no other records in Napier? – No.
132. You have made searching inquiries in Napier, and can find no other document belonging to this trust? – No.
133. We have been asked to get the total receipts and disbursements for each year since the creation of the trust: how far can you help us in that direction? – The accounts from 1855 to 1868 were presented to the Royal Commission of 1869, and were published in the proceedings of that Commission in Appendix to Journals of House of Representatives, 1898, H. – 21A, being a reprint of A. – 5A, 1869. I now produce the accounts of the trust from 1869 to 1905 [Exhibit No. 26]. I may state to the Commission that the accounts for the Hukarere School are only included from the time that school was incorporated.
GEORGE MACMURRAY examined.
134. The Chairman.] You are canon of the Auckland Diocese? – Yes
135. You are at present visiting Napier? – Yes.
136. You have not come here in connection with this Commission? – Not at all.
137. Were you present at the sixteenth General Synod of the Church of the Province of New Zealand, held at Auckland in January and February, 1904? – Yes.
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138. The Acting-Primate in his address to the Synod gave a history of these trusts, which is set forth at pages 7 and 8 of the proceedings? – Yes.
139. He says: “Perhaps a short reference to history may be desirable to make this matter more clear to new-comers or to the rising generation among us. At the time when our constitution was drawn up, and the General Synod began to act, there were three bodies holding properties in New Zealand for church purposes independently of each other. There were the representatives of the Church Missionary Society; there was the Synod of the then newly formed diocese, with its endowments derived from the Canterbury Block, and an Act of the Provincial Legislature then in power had decided that this property should be subject to the authority of the Diocesan Synod; and there was, thirdly, the Bishop of Christchurch, as a corporation sole, holding the 14,000 acres of church property which had been vested in him. The Bishop obtained an Act of the General Assembly of New Zealand which authorised him to transfer to the General Synod, as the body contemplated in. the Religious, Charitable, and Educational Trusts Act, this mass of church property held by him. The two other bodies refused to place their property under the authority of the General Synod, hence variety in the manner of holding was introduced and thus the ambiguous language of our church law. The amendment of the Bishop of New Zealand Trusts Act obtained from the General Assembly in 1865 was to enable the State to recognise a Diocesan Synod as a representative body of the church in order to cover the Christchurch case, and the Church Missionary Society managed its property by an agent authorised by its governing body in London. You will see, therefore, from this brief account that wherever such words occur in the constitution or canons as ‘property held on behalf of the General Synod ” the only properties referred to as not so held are those of the Diocese of Christchurch and the Church Missionary Society, and such terms are not to be interpreted as implying that the church allows any other diocese than that referred to to hold property independently of the General Synod.” Is that an accurate report? – It is accurate generally, with one slight inaccuracy that is to say, this property of the Church Missionary Society is held in trust by the New Zealand Mission Trusts Board, a corporate body.
140. This particular land that is the subject of our inquiry was conveyed by the Bishop of New Zealand to the Bishop of Wellington and other trustees on the 13th May, 1862, under the authority of “The Bishops of New Zealand Trusts Act, 1858”? – Yes.
141. And the present trustees are their successors? – Yes.
142. Were you present at Christchurch at the meeting of the Synod in 1898? – I was.
143. Did any general discussion take place there with regard to these trust properties? – There was a discussion that arose on the question of the Porirua trust, and as giving the mind of the church through its highest body as to the meaning of these trusts I might refer you to the series of resolutions which were adopted by the General Synod at its session in Christchurch, and which were an instruction to the Porirua trustees. One instruction was, in regard to the scholarships that were to be founded from the revenues of the Porirua trust, that, whilst Europeans were not to be excluded, preference was in all cases to be given to Maoris. It did not say that Europeans were not to get the benefit, but it practically means that, so long as there were Maoris available and suitable, preference should be given to them.
144. You have had something to do with the trusts in the Auckland Province? – I have had to do with the St. Stephen’s School for fourteen years, and I was a trustee of the Auckland trusts for a considerable number of years. I have been closely associated with the work of St. Stephen’s and the Queen Victoria Maori School for Girls.
145. Can you tell us shortly the terms of the trust? – It is for “the education of the children of our subjects of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons, being inhabitants of the islands in the Pacific Ocean.” I may say that this Auckland trust, and the Porirua trust, and the Otaki trust, and, I believe, the Wanganui and Wairarapa trusts are all identically the same language. Then, the trust is this: “To hold unto the said Bishop of New Zealand and his successors, in trust nevertheless, and for the use and towards the support and maintenance of the said schools so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to youth educated therein and maintained thereat.” I draw the attention of the Commission to the fact that there is a distinct difference between the trust at Te Aute and this general trust. The Te Aute trust is not limited in the way that the Auckland and these other trusts are. There is no indication of the character of the instruction to be given in the Te Aute School; there is a wider scope in the Te Aute trust.
146. Mr. Lee.] It does not say what religious instruction? – No, it is not definite; but it is to be religious instruction under the control of the Bishop of New Zealand.
147. The Chairman.] So that in the Auckland school industrial training is required by the trust? – Yes, it is obligatory.
148. Can you tell us what your experience has been as to the beneficial effects of industrial training amongst the Natives? – I think it is exceedingly good. Maori boys are just the same as European boys, and in dealing with them you have got to deal with boys of different capacities and different aptitudes. The great bulk of the Maori boys are not adapted nor fitted to receive a thoroughly good classical education. But there are some who are so fitted, and I say there ought to be an institution to which these Maoris could be sent to get that classical training. But, in my opinion, technical training is best for the great bulk of them. We of St. Stephen’s recognise that Te Aute offers an opportunity to give a secondary education to those Maori boys who are adapted for it. Therefore we do not give any boy a secondary education at St. Stephen’s. If we have a boy who is suited for it we generally secure his admission into Te Aute. Therefore, our boys get an ordinary public-school teaching, but, in addition, they get technical instruction. We are very glad to have Te Aute to send our particularly clever boys to, and I think it would be a loss if there was no such place. Of course, there are two ways of looking at it. I have often been pressed myself to introduce higher education into St. Stephen’s. I have always steadfastly
G. MACMURRAY.] 29 G. – 5.
set my face against it, but the reason I do so is because I know Te Aute can provide for any boy who is really fitted to receive it.
149. Have you lately sent boys from St. Stephens to Te Aute? – Yes, numbers. Mr. Thornton probably can tell you how many boys have come to Te Aute from St. Stephen’s. For some years past I should say there has been an average of two or three.
150. On the subject of classification, in your school in Auckland do the teachers endeavour to distinguish between a boy fitted for farming and outdoor life and a boy more fitted for a professional or mercantile life? – In so far as this: that when a boy shows special aptitude and learning he is generally marked out as a boy who should be sent to Te Aute.
151. They take care to do that? – Yes, they pick out the promising boys and send them off to Te Aute to get a secondary education.
152. And, in your opinion, that is advantageous to the race? – Yes. My opinion is that, so long as this teaching is given to these specially clever boys only, it is advantageous to the race. It would be far better to give boys who are not adapted to it technical instruction.
153. Mr. Lee.] I should like to ask whether in your school you have been able to differentiate between the pupils and to classify them as to their work in life, or whether the education in the school is so arranged that it has sides – say, a commercial side, or a scientific side, or any other side? – Well, the idea that we have in St. Stephen’s in regard to these boys is this: we are very much more anxious that the boys should go back to their own kaingas and get amongst their own people, and raise their own people, rather than that we should fit them to go and live in towns among pakehas and live pakeha lives. There has been one aspect of thought which has been taken up in late years – that it is advantageous to the Maori to teach him a trade, and to let him live among the pakehas, earning his living by a trade; and in deference to the Government the St. Stephen’s School agreed to give facilities for old boys to be apprenticed, and whilst learning their trades to be boarded at the school. Now, frankly, that was against the whole policy that we had put before ourselves, but in deference to pressure from the Government we agreed to give the experiment a trial, and at the present time there are generally five or six old boys residing at the school, and they go every morning into the city to learn their different trades. Personally, I should infinitely prefer to give a boy a training in industrial habits and a certain amount of technical education, and then send him back amongst his own people to live with his own people. But once you apprentice them to a trade you lose them for that. Our aim has been to mould the mind and character of the boys so that they may return home to their kaingas, each one fitted for his life’s work.
154. Mr. Hogg.] Have you found that Maori boys and girls, after being well educated in these institutions, are ready to go back to their kaingas and live amongst their own people? – Yes. The great bulk of them do so. With the exception of those who are apprenticed to these trades, I should say that practically all of them go back to their own people. I would say this further: the former Inspector of the Education Department in one of his last reports said that whenever he went through a Maori village in the North and found a Maori who was standing out amongst his surroundings, and a wholesome influence in every way, he generally found he was a St. Stephen’s boy.
155. Mr. Ngata.] Have you followed the after-history of some of these young men apprenticed to trades? – Yes, I have. Of course, the experiment has not been very long in operation. One thing I fear is that the Maori constitution is not equal to the strain of living in the cities. That is what I pointed out to the Government when they pressed it upon us at first.
156. I believe a very promising young saddler died just the other day? – Yes, one of the finest young fellows we had in our school.
157. Mr. Elliott.] That is not the result of learning a trade? – No; but it is the result of town life.
158. Mr. Ngata.] Your point is that long residence in the town detaches them from their people? – Not only that; it gets them out of sympathy, and you lose in the first instance the benefit we want these boys to impart to their own people. We are not aiming at the individual benefit of the boys and girls in the school, but the benefit of the race through these boys and girls.
159. Mr. Lee.] How long do they remain at the school? – That depends. The Government scholars are sent for two years, but if satisfactory we invariably keep them for another year or two on our own foundation. The other boys we keep for five or six years.
160. Have you found the health of the boys good? – Yes; so long as they are in the school they are right enough.
161. Mr. Ngata.] In regard to secondary education, have you ever considered the question of sending these particularly bright boys to a grammar school instead of to Te Aute? – Yes; and I may say the Government pressed several times to give facilities to specially clever boys to board at St. Stephen’s and attend the Auckland Grammar School. I have several instances in my mind at the present time, and I may say I think the experiment was a distinct failure. My experience tells me it is not a desirable thing.
162. Mr. Bird.] How many cases have you had? – I do not like to mention names. There have been four or five, at any rate, but I do not know of any one who has been satisfactory.
163. Mr. Lee.] Have they broken down in health? – No.
164. Mr. Ngata.] Not satisfactory, having in view the policy pursued at St. Stephen’s? – Not satisfactory in this respect, and this, I think, was the respect in which it failed: In St. Stephen’s, of course, there is a very proper discipline, which is, of course, a great deal more strict than the discipline maintained over the average European boy in his own home. Now, the Maori boy boarding at St. Stephen’s meets these European boys in his class. They are practically unrestrained by any discipline in their homes. They can do what they like, and can go out as they like, and the boy boarding at St. Stephen’s cannot. I have known these boys rather to rebel at the discipline, and at being obliged to conform to the discipline of St. Stephen’s in regard to
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remaining in in the evenings, and so forth. Having had a taste of liberty in the daytime, they think they ought to have just as much liberty in the evenings as European boys.
165. You have not compared the grammar school with Te Aute from a scholastic point of view? – I maintain it is infinitely better for those boys, both morally and in every other way, to send them to Te Aute instead of to a school like the Auckland Grammar School.
166. Mr. Eliott.] You think it is better for the boys to be educated and go back to their own kaingas in the hopes of elevating their own people, instead of remaining amongst the pakehas? – I do.
167. Do you not think an educated boy more likely to devote himself to an easy life than to the uplifting of the race? – There is that danger, but my experience is that the presence of these boys is a wholesome influence in the pas. Mr. Pope very distinctly states that to be the case.
168. I see that the Commission of last year, in reporting generally, said, ‘In conclusion, we think it expedient to express an opinion that in all cases where the foundation of the trust has been a Maori donation the church or other authorities should make provision for the representation of Maoris on the governing body.” Do you agree with that? – Well, there is a practical difficulty about that, and I will tell you what it is. Take St. Stephen’s School, and I suppose it would be the same with regard to Te Aute, if this school was not managed by an attorney. It is necessary for the trustees to meet once a fortnight to transact business. If you put a Maori on the trust and he is to be of any use whatever he must attend regularly, otherwise he gets out of the run of business. Now, I do not know where you will get many with the education and opportunity to attend these metings [meetings] once a fortnight. It is a practical difficulty.
169. The Chairman.] Supposing the trustees wish the school to be conducted on certain lines in regard to education and the Education Department think differently, who is to decide between them? – Well, remember the position of the Education Department in regard to these trusts is this: the only authority it has over these trusts is in so far as the schools receive boys holding scholarships. It is a moral authority. If we do not hold to the opinion of the Education Department the whole thing they can do is to say, “Well, we shall send you no more scholars.” It is simply a matter of good feeling. My experience is that we really never had any difficulty with them. We have always understood each other and worked together harmoniously.
170. The position is, you endeavour to work in with them, but you claim to be the paramount authority in the school? – Yes.
171. Mr. Bird.] Did the trustees introduce industrial training into St. Stephen’s on their own initiative? – If you discriminate between industrial training and technical training, industrial training we have had in St. Stephen’s for all time – that is to say, we have always trained them in habits of industry; but the origin of the modern technical instruction is this: About ten years ago, speaking roughly, Mr. Morton, my co-trustee, and myself called upon Mr Seddon and asked him if the Government would help us if we introduced technical workshops into St. Stephen’s. Mr. Seddon said at once he would. He told us that under the Treaty of Waitangi there was £7,000 a year due to the Maori people, and that out of that £7,000 he would grant to us whatever money we needed for this purpose. He said he was in full sympathy with us, and on the strength of that promise of Mr. Seddon’s we set to work and we had a workshop built, and employed an instructor, and got the thing into operation.
172. Did you receive any assistance of any kind from the Government? – Yes; they contributed to us the material out of which the workshop was built, and they contributed to us a grant in aid of the instructor. But the terms have been modified since, I am sorry to say, and very disastrously, I think, in the interests of technical education.
173. They also gave you a grant to purchase tools? – Yes.
174. And monetary assistance towards the erection of the shop? – They provided money to buy the material.
175. And monetary assistance to pay the technical instructor? – Yes.
176. And also for a man to superintend the erection of the shop? – The man who superintended the erection of the shop was the technical instructor – that is to say, we made the building of the workshop a part of the teaching and training of the boys.
177. Have the parents of any boys, to your knowledge, ever objected to their boys engaging in manual occupations? – Yes, they have.
178. Do you know of your own knowledge that that is the feeling amongst Maoris generally at the present day? – No, it is not the general feeling; but not very long ago, when a Maori chief of considerable standing came to the school and found his boy doing the ordinary industrial work of the school, he was very irate to think his boy should be employed at such work. I think the boy was digging in the garden. The boys cultivate the garden and grow vegetables, and that sort of thing.
179. Now with regard to the system of apprenticeship, are you sure that the apparent intention of the Department is that these Maoris shall learn trades for the purpose of pursuing their occupation afterwards amongst Pakehas? – It is hard for me to say what is in their mind. I can only interpret their intentions by their actions. I know that the Department is exceedingly anxious and keen that we should give facilities for these boys to learn trades.
180. Are they such trades as can be pursued afterwards only in cities and towns and pakeha settlements? – The trades of saddlery and coach-making, which are the two trades many of these boys go to, are the trades which are practically town trades.
181. In regard to the boys who have been drafted to other high schools, like the Auckland Grammar School, the failure that has come to your knowledge has been a failure in discipline only? – It has been a failure in its results, and I think the failure generally arose through the reason I have already stated.
182. But with regard to the higher education and after-career of these boys, was there any failure there? – Yes. I do not know one of those who went to the Grammar School that I could
G. MACMURRAY.] 31 G. – 5.
say I am satisfied with. I would go further, and I would say this: that I think the greatest failure I can remember associated with St. Stephen’s School was one of these boys.
183. Is that many years ago? – Not many years ago. I do not like to go into particulars, in case the stigma should attach to particular names.
184. I want to be sure that the failure was more than a mere failure in discipline? – It was failure in career that I have strongly in my mind.
Before the adjournment, in response to the Chairman’s inquiry as to whether any one present wished to lay any matter before the Commission,
Mr. Ellison said, – I have been appointed by the Natives to listen to the evidence and to represent them before the Commission, and at present I do not see any necessity for a sitting out of Napier.
The Chairman: Whatever questions the Natives wish to bring before us will be fully considered. The trust was established for the benefit of them and their children, and we shall listen to what they have to say, if it is within the scope of the Commission. I should like to get, if it is possible, the feeling of the Natives in regard to this question of manual and technical education.
Mr. Ellison: The only point I can see so far is in connection with the appointment of a Native representative on the trust.
The Chairman: Are the Natives satisfied with the present lease?
Mr. Ellison: I understand the position, but I do not think any of the other Natives realise the position. I am in sympathy with Archdeacon Williams.
SATURDAY, 19TH MAY 1906.
JOHN BECKETT FIELDER further examined.
1. The Chairman.] Since the adjournment you have turned up a letter which you now wish to produce? – Yes. In order to show that the trustees did take action in reference to technical education I produce copies of letters sent by me as corresponding trustee, and the replies received thereto (Exhibit No. 27).
2. You also produce a letter from Sir W. R. Russell in reference to the renewal of the lease to Archdeacon Williams? – Yes. It is as follows: “Flaxmere, Hastings, Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand, 29th November, 1902. – DEAR FIELDER, I think we ought to put the lease of the Te Aute Estate on a permanent footing. Poor Cotterill has gone and J. N. Williams is not likely to be returning soon, so virtually you and I are the responsible people. I shall be in Napier within a week, and will then call and see you. Meantime turn the matter round in your head. – Very truly yours, W. R. RUSSELL.”
3. We had some evidence from the Archdeacon yesterday in reference to a new house that is being built on the estate: do you know under arrangements it is being built? – It has never come before the trustees as a body. Of course, individually, some of the trustees may have been spoken to, but I only heard of the matter for the first time yesterday when listening to the Archdeacon.
4. Can you ascertain on what conditions that house is being built? – Yes.
THOMAS HALL examined.
5. The Chairman.] You are District Land Registrar and Registrar of Deeds for Hawke’s Bay? – Yes.
6. And the titles connected with Te Aute College and Hukarere Schools are recorded in the books in your office? – Yes.
7. Have you had a plan prepared of the Te Aute Estate? – I have had a plan compiled from the recorded copies of the Crown grant, and I produce it (Exhibit No. 28). It shows the original grants and dealings, and so forth.
8. Does this plan show the original grants? – Yes, separately.
9. The plan includes the land in the original grants with the exception of 870 acres edged with blue? – Yes, that is within the red. All within the red represents what remains of the original grants.
10. But the 870 acres within the blue lines were reconveyed to the Crown? – Yes.
11. The 382 acres to the south of the main block were added? – Yes.
12. Do you produce another plan? – Yes (Exhibit No. 29). It is a copy of the original authentic survey plan. The total area of the two blocks is 6,561 acres. I may say that this cannot be relied upon, because the Crown grants have evidently been compiled partly from this and partly from other sources. The grants were never issued in accordance with these.
13. Mr. Eliott.] Who made the survey? – There is no evidence of that.
14. You also produce a lithographic locality plan? – Yes (Exhibit No. 30).
15. Do you produce copies of the four Crown grants and one certificate of title for Hukarere? – Yes (Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7).
16. And you produce a copy of the reconveyance of the 780 acres to the Crown? – Yes (Exhibit No. 31).
17. And also a copy of a deed of conveyance from the Bishop of New Zealand to the Te Aute trustees? -Yes (Exhibit No. 32).
18. You also produce certified copies of the appointments of new trustees, dated 13th May, 1862; 21st August, 1885; and 30th September, 1895? – Yes (Exhibits Nos. 16, 17, and 18). The last appointment of Mr Coleman in place of Mr. Cotterill, deceased, has not yet been registered. I also produce certified copies of the deed of exchange between the trustees and Mr. R. Stokes
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(Exhibit No. 24), and a deed of exchange between the trustees and Archdeacon Williams (Exhibit No. 33). I may say that the declaration of trust in regard to the Hukarere land is not registered nor deposited in my office, but I produce a copy of it (Exhibit No. 34).
MONDAY, 21ST MAY, 1906.
The Chairman: I would like to state, in regard to the question of correspondence, that since we rose on Saturday I have received a letter from Mr Hill, the Inspector of Schools for this district, informing us that he is unable to attend on the ground that he is leaving Napier to-day on business connected with his Board. I may say that Mr. Hill was invited to attend to give evidence as we understood he had some information in regard to the system of education which would be of assistance to us. His letter reads:-
“Bluff Hill, Napier, 19th May, 1906. – The Secretary, Te Aute Commission. – DEAR SIR, – I am due at Wanstead on Monday next, and examination dates are fixed up to Saturday, 2nd June, when I hope to return to Napier by the express. Unless the Chairman of the Education Board authorises me to do so, I cannot break the fixtures of my examination dates, as notices have been sent to all School Committees in the southern part of this education district, informing them of the day or days on which their schools will be examined. – Yours truly, H. HILL.”
Mr. Ngata: We can get him to attend if we want him to.
The Chairman: Of course, we can compel him to attend if it is considered desirable to have his evidence.
Mr. Ngata: I think his evidence will be of a very great assistance.
The Chairman: The only other communication is a telegram from G. P. Donnelly, in reply to a communication sent to him by the Secretary, as follows: –
“Private. – Regret cannot attend Commission on Monday, having previous appointment in Patea for that date. Have not been over the whole of trust estate. Suggest Mr. A. Dillon, M.H.R., or Mr. T. Crosse would be better able to give evidence as to value.”
However, I understand Mr. Donnelly telephoned this morning that the engagement to which he refers has been postponed, and that he is now able to attend. The Secretary has also written to the editors of the local papers asking them to reply to the letters of the 16th May, asking them to attend.
JOHN THORNTON examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are headmaster of the Te Aute College? – Yes.
2. When did you first join that institution? – In 1878.
3. Who appointed you? – I was in communication with Archdeacon Williams and Bishop Stewart. My appointment was arranged through them.
4. Was that appointment to be headmaster of the school? – Yes.
5. Who had been headmaster before you arrived? – Mr. Reynolds.
6. I want you to tell the Commission what was the condition of the school as regards the system of education when you arrived? – When I arrived it was purely an elementary school. There were only twenty-two boys in attendance, and the highest standard of the school then was just about the same as the standard of our lowest class now – that is to say, we taught reading, writing, arithmetic, and a little geography.
7. Were there any other masters? – No others. I was the sole master to begin with.
8. Of course, it was purely and simply a boarding establishment – there are no day scholars? – Practically none.
9. What was the carrying-capacity of the school at that time? – Part of the present schoolroom had just been erected, which made room for more dormitories, because up to that time the school itself had been carried on in one of the present dormitories. I should say at the time I came, when we moved into the new school there was room perhaps for forty-five or fifty boys.
10. What is the capacity now? – Seventy-five is the maximum, and anything beyond that would mean crowding.
11. How many have you now? – Seventy-three.
12. Will you kindly give us a short sketch of the progress of the school from that time up to the present, as to the system of teaching, improvements in the buildings, and so on – a short sketch of the growth of the school? – After I came the numbers gradually increased, and it was soon found necessary to appoint an assistant. I tried from the very first to raise the standard of the school, and a few years later I conceived the idea of preparing Maori boys for the matriculation examination of the New Zealand University. What led me to this idea was that I felt the Maoris should not be shut out from any chance of competing with English boys in the matter of higher education. I saw that the time would come when the Maoris would wish to have their own doctors, their own lawyers, and their own clergymen, and I felt it was only just to the race to provide facilities for them doing so, especially in an institution which was a Maori endowment. Accordingly, in 1885, I think it was – I am not quite sure of the year, but it was just about twenty years ago – at the beginning of the year I selected three or four promising boys whom I thought worthy of being carried on to the higher standard. We did not begin our matriculation studies until March, and up to that time these boys had never opened a Latin book. But by hard work we managed to prepare these boys for the examination, and I am pleased to say that in the following December two of them succeeded in passing. This was referred to by the Inspector of Schools as a feat in Maori education. The standard thus founded has been maintained up to the present time, with the result that a considerable number of Maori young men have passed the matriculation examination, and thus prepared themselves for the higher walks in life. And I am pleased to say that, in the great majority of instances, we have reason to be pleased with the success
J. THORNTON.] 33 G. – 5.
that has followed our efforts. A good number of young men have entered the various walks of life, and are now living useful and respected lives. Some have entered the professions, others have become interpreters; a large number have gone into offices, and several have become theological students, and many others have returned to their homes and are engaged in tilling their lands. We feel, in the interests of the race, it is a good thing that educated young men should go back to their people, and endeavour by their example to leaven the whole lump. We have the testimony of several to the good influence which they have, speaking generally, exerted amongst their own people. I may mention that Bishop Williams, than whom perhaps no better judge exists, has told us that in nearly every instance where he has found an old Te Aute boy living in a Maori pa the pa has been the better for his presence. I keep up a large correspondence with boys who have left Te Aute, and I am able thus to keep i n touch with them and to gauge their careers. I ought to mention perhaps that a considerable number have entered offices in towns. For instance, in Gisborne at the present time-I cannot speak as to the exact numbers, but I should say there are eighteen to twenty old Te Aute boys usefully employed in Gisborne itself. About ten years ago a movement was set on foot by the Te Aute students themselves, having for its object the upraising of the race. This movement rapidly developed into what is now known as the Te Aute College Students’ Association, or perhaps the more ideal title, the Young Maori Party. The programme of the association includes the upraising of the Maori in every respect-religiously, intellectually, socially, and morally, and from a sanitary point of view. With a view to carrying out this programme meetings are annually held in the large Maori centres. They have been held in Te Aute itself, in Gisborne, on the east coast -in fact, in every district except the North of Auckland. At these meetings we seek to gain the attendance of representative Maoris. They are invited to express their opinions freely on all matters affecting the welfare of the race. These questions are brought up and discussed, and resolutions are framed to voice them. The result is that we claim to have educated Maori public opinion to a higher standard, and in testimony of this we have the evidence of those best qualified to judge. It seemed fitting that this subject should be mentioned in connection with Te Aute, as the movement took its rise there, and those who have taken a leading part in it are themselves old Te Aute boys. I might mention that for some years Mr. Ngata himself was the travelling secretary of the association, and he supplied us with exhaustive reports as to the needs of the race. We try at Te Aute to uphold to the boys a standard which shall lead them to regard themselves as, in a measure, responsible for the welfare of their race, and, as a rule, we find they do exert a good influence over their people. Of course, we have had sad instances of relapses, but it is a matter of history that all English boys do not turn out well. As regards the position taken up by old Te Aute boys, I may mention – you could help me here, Mr. Ngata – there are on the east coast alone thirty-six farmers; we have had two lawyers, and one on the point of becoming a lawyer; two doctors; and several Native clergymen. If I might, I would like to repeat the motive which led me to strive for higher education among the Maoris was that they should not be deprived of the chance of entering the higher professions and engaging in the higher walks of life.
13. You may be able to tell us at this stage whether the experiment in commercial life has been successful from the point of view of the health of the boys? – So far as I know, a large number of thorn who have entered upon commercial life in offices, and so on, have preserved their health. One of my own boys, at, present in Napier, has been engaged in a lawyer’s office for nearly twenty years. Last year one of our boys who had been engaged in commercial pursuits gave it up on health grounds. He has now gone on the land, and has greatly improved in health. But that is the case with all races. I think that practically covers all I wish to say.
14. As regards athletics and sports, and so on, have they held their own? – In athletics I may say that Te Aute has held its own. The boys take a great interest in athletic sports of all kinds. I have always carefully guarded against athletics interfering with their studies. Work comes first, and sports takes a second place.
15. I suppose you endeavour to comply with the maxim Mens sana in corpore sano? –
Exactly, and I have not had much difficulty in doing this, seeing that Maori boys, as a rule, take a more serious view of their studies than do English boys. Two years ago I took a team of Maori footballers over to Australia, where they made an excellent record, and where they were most hospitably treated. My object in taking them over was not only football, but I had an educational object in view. I believed that a little travelling and experience of fresh people and new circumstances would widen their minds, and prove a valuable experience, and I have no reason to regret the trip, and I cannot point to one boy who has been injured by it.
16. What do you say as to the general conduct of the boys in and out of school? – As regards their conduct in and out of school, I can only say it is exceptional. I do not say that solely on my own authority. I have found that wherever they have gone they have behaved themselves in a way that has pleased people generally. My standard for them is this: that they are to lead the lives of Christian gentlemen, and a Maori boy responds easily to any demand made upon him if made in the right way.
17. With reference to the association to which you have just referred, can you give us a copy of the constitution? – Yes [Exhibit No. 35
18. The proceedings of this association are printed every year? – Yes. I should like this to be included in the report of the Commission. It is from the report of the second conference of 1897, and reads: “The subjects to be discussed may be conveniently grouped under the following heads: (1.) Social – (a) The discouragement and abolition of objectionable and pernicious customs in connection with Maori meetings of all kinds; (b) the suppression of the drink traffic; (c) the extension of systematic agricultural and pastoral pursuits. (2.) Sanitary – (a) Buildings: (b) drainage: (c) the right use of European clothing. (3.) Intellectual – (a) The fostering of the desire for education: (b) the higher education of the Maoris: (c) industrial and professional employment of the educated Maori youths, (4.) Religious – (a) The impression
5 – G. 5.
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of the true nature of practical religion upon the Maori mind as opposed to the mere form of it; (b) the needs of the Maori church and the methods adopted to supply them; (c) the raising up of a Maori ministry, and the advancement of the organization of the Native church.”
19. In the building-up of this school you have been intimately associated with the Archdeacon? – Yes.
20. And you have been in constant communication with him? – Yes.
21. Will you kindly say, from your long experience with him, what his influence and connection with the school mean to the school? – His influence and connection with the school mean the school itself, practically. If it had not been for Archdeacon Williams the place would never have existed. If it had not been for the support and encouragement I have received from Archdeacon Williams the place would never have attained the standard it has now. His whole heart and soul are in the progress of the institution, and he has never grudged time, nor attention, nor money in its interests.
22. Of course, we know he lives on the estate within a few hundred yards of the school? – Yes.
23. And you are in constant communication with him regarding matters affecting the conduct of the school? – Yes.
24. And you and he are practically responsible for the present condition of the school? – Yes.
25. What interest have the trustees past and present taken in the school since your time? – The trustees who were in existence when I first came I think I never saw. The other trustees from time to time, but not often, have visited the school; but I have never conferred with them officially.
26. Will you tell us how the boys are admitted to the College? – We have a form of application [Exhibit No. 21]. It is filled up and returned to me, and then in most cases I confer with the Archdeacon, and the application is refused or accepted according to the circumstances of the case. As a rule, preference is given to the local Natives, whose ancestors were interested in the grant. We are very careful to admit only healthy boys, and the Government, in sending us their scholars, also require evidence as to good health. The result of this has been that the health of the boys of late years has been on the whole excellent.
27. With regard to the admission or European boys to the school, how many European boys have you there now, and what proportion have you had in the past? – On an average I should say we have five or six European boys. That is the lowest average. We have had up to ten, and as low as five. With regard to their admission, no English boy has ever been refused because he is an English boy. If an application is rejected it is on precisely the same grounds that a Maori application would be rejected – that is to say, because of unsuitability as regards health, age, or attainments, or because there is no room.
28. Do you find that the Maoris and Europeans get on well together? – Perfectly well; there is no friction whatever. I have never had an instance of what might be called racial friction.
29. I suppose attention is paid to the health of the student? – Yes, every attention is paid to their health. It lies at the foundation of everything.
30. For instance, take the case of teeth: are their teeth, as a rule, good? – In former years we hardly ever had a case of bad teeth amongst the boys, but of late we have had more teeth troubles. My own opinion is that they are not nearly so common amongst Maori boys as amongst English boys. Most of them have excellent teeth.
31. Do their teeth receive proper attention? – Yes; if anything goes wrong with their teeth they go up to the dentist at once.
32. Is there any periodical examination of their teeth? – No.
33. I forgot to refer to the chapel that has been erected: That was not erected out of trust funds? – No. I may mention in regard to that chapel that the idea occurred to me some years ago that the Archdeacon would not always be with us, and that perhaps after he had gone some one might propose to put a stained-glass window up in the cathedral. I thought I would anticipate that some one and erect a memorial.to him of a nature which I knew would please him most during his lifetime. I consulted his friends, who responded most generously, and the result is the College chapel. The building of it was a source of great gratification to the Archdeacon, and he has taken the greatest interest in it throughout. The chapel is used for daily morning prayers, for Sunday services, and for occasional services. One of the senior boys reads the lesson at prayers every morning, and also on Sundays.
34. You have also a valuable telescope which is used for observing the heavens: it is a small matter, but a matter of interest? – Yes. We have also a very valuable telescope presented by Mr. J. H. Pope, the late Inspector of Native Schools. We have used it, but not as much as I could wish.
35. Do any of the students pay fees? – At different times we have students paying fees. I have a Maori boy now whose father pays fees for him regularly.
36. Are there any school fees? – There is a question in the form of application.
37. I see question No. 9 in the form of application [Exhibit No. 21] refers to their religious profession? – Yes.
38. Has the answer to that question anything to do with their admission to the school? – No, practically not. The majority are Church of England or “missionary,” as they call themselves. Sometimes we have Catholics, sometimes Mormons, and sometimes Non-conformists but the majority are Church of England.
39. What have you to say in regard to the curriculum of the school? – The fact that our standard is the matriculation examination of the New Zealand University defines the curriculum to a very great extent. Everything leads up to that. I may say here, in connection with what was mentioned the other day during the Archdeacon’s examination on the subject of Latin, it was reported that the Archdeacon had said that the amount of Latin was “harmless.” Well that might be interpreted in more than one way. What the Archdeacon really meant to say – and I have his authority for it – was that the time devoted to Latin was harmless; that it did not interfere
J. THORNTON.] 35 G. – 5.
with the time given to other subjects. I may say, as regards Latin, that Latin is essential for the matriculation examination, and therefore it finds a place in our curriculum. It may be called a smattering of Latin in one sense, but in another sense it is not a smattering, because what is taught is thoroughly taught. We do not get beyond Latin prose, but what really they do in Latin to qualify for the matriculation is thoroughly taught. I should like to say also that I find that the teaching of Latin in the case of Maori boys is a very valuable tool in teaching English. We try in every case to make the Latin help the English, and the English the Latin, and I find from my own personal experience – because I take all the higher Latin – that the two things materially assist each other. A Latin sentence has to be translated into good English, and so the study of Latin involve; the building-up of English sentences; and when it is remembered that to the Maori the English is a foreign language, this is no inconsiderable point.
40. What grants have been made by the Government during the whole of your time at the school? – During the whole of the time I have been at Te Aute the Government have paid us £200 a year-that is, ten pupils at £20 a year. In this connection I may say that the average cost per pupil per annum is £25. That is to say, when the total cost of the institution for the whole year is divided by the average number of pupils, £25 is the quotient.
41. When did this question of manual and technical education first become prominent in your communications with the trustees, or the Archdeacon, or the Education Department? – I will produce the correspondence on the subject of technical education [Exhibit No. 36].
42. Has there been any desire on your part or on the part of the Archdeacon or of the trustees to exclude manual and technical education from the College? – Absolutely none. I think we have given proof that our efforts have been entirely in the other direction, seeing that for many years we carried on carpentering classes. If it is in order I would like to refer to a letter which I wrote to the local newspaper containing my view on the subject. I may state that it was mentioned in one of the local newspapers that Mr. Pope had himself been opposed to the introduction of technical education at Te Aute, and I felt it would be only just to Mr. Pope to refute this statement, and I wrote this letter [Exhibit No. 37].
43. Is there anything you wish to add to the educational side of the subject? – I would like to emphasize what I say in that letter: that ours are a hard-worked lot of boys. They begin at 7 o’clock in the morning, and they are not finished until 9 o’clock at night. The only time they have absolutely to themselves is from 3.30 to 5 p.m., and in the case of the senior boys that time is very frequently entrenched upon. The daily curriculum I may put briefly as follows: Prayers, 7 a.m.; breakfast, 7 .30; at 8 a party of boys numbering from six to eight come to me and we work together about the place, chiefly in the vegetable-garden; school begins at 9.15; dinner at 12 ; school again from 1 to 3.30 ; tea, 5 o’clock ; at 6.30 they meet again, when the daily newspaper is read out to the whole school by one of the senior boys ; at 7 evening preparation begins ; prayers at 8.15; after which I generally have something to say to the boys, which brings it up to 9 p.m. I think that will give the Commissioners some idea as to how their time goes. As regards domestic work, they are occupied in laying the tables for meals, in washing up after meals, in chopping all the wood for the establishment, which is no slight job, seeing that we bake our own bread. They also help in the washing; they sweep the dormitories and make their own beds, and keep all the premises round about the College tidy and in good order – I mean the concrete and the paths, and so on – and generally assist in the domestic work of the institution.
44. They do not cook? – No; we want to keep them in good health. When we have been hard pushed for a cook they have all turned to, and done very well.
45. Is there anything further you wish to say? – There is one point I should like to emphasize, and that is that it is a very difficult task to take Maori boys on to the matriculation examination. It must be remembered that they have to do all their work in a foreign language, and it is very much as if an English boy had to pass his matriculation examination in German or French. I remember Mr. Pope on one occasion saying that the credit of passing the matriculation examination in the case of a Maori boy was worth at least 50 per cent. more than in the case of an English boy.
46. And yet they have, in passing the matriculation examination, to secure the same percentage of marks? – No allowance has been made. I have appealed to the University over and over again to make a concession in favour of Maori boys, but they have not seen their way to do it. That is all I wish to say.
47. Apart altogether from the scholastic side of the institution, the financial part is under the control of the Archdeacon and yourself? – Yes, entirely.
48. You keep a banking account? – Yes, with the Bank of New Zealand.
49. How long has that account been in existence? – I should say about seven or eight years.
50. And it is operated on by yourself and the Archdeacon? – The Archdeacon signs, or I sign for him.
51. Do you also keep a cash-book showing receipts and expenditure? – I do not keep a ledger, a cash-book is kept showing receipts and expenditure.
52. Everything received goes into the bank? – Yes, straight into the bank, with the exception of petty cash, which is all accounted for in the cash-book. But the petty cash is drawn on by cheque.
53. So the banking account is a complete cash-book in itself? – Yes.
54. With regard to accounts that are paid, are they passed by the Archdeacon and yourself? – They are passed by me as for the Archdeacon.
55. And the accounts are audited? – Yes, annually, and presented to the Diocesan Synod, and triennally [triennially] to the General Synod, in whose reports they are printed.
56. When did you first begin to look after the accounts: seven years ago? – Oh, no; I began to look after the accounts from the very start; but before the banking account started they were kept on a different system.
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57. Since the banking account was started have you kept a full, true, and faithful account of the receipts and disbursements? – I have.
58. Before the banking account was started what was the system? – I rendered a quarterly account to the Archdeacon, he giving me interim cheques for the expenses. There was no school banking account. It was done through the Archdeacon on the one hand and my own banking account on the other. I accounted every quarter.
59. Do you get any supplies from the estate itself? – From the estate itself we are supplied with firewood, meat, and milk. No charge whatever has ever been made for the milk.
60. I suppose that is a considerable item? – Indeed, it is. The meat is paid for at the following rates: Mutton, 2d. per lb.; beef, 2 ½ d. per lb. That has been going on ever since I took charge. I speak only of what I know, but I think it was the rate before. Having regard to the average price of butcher’s meat, l should say that the Archdeacon’s gift to the College every year as represented by the reduced charges for the meat and by the free milk is equal to at least £150 a year. We pay for cutting and carting of firewood.
61. During the time you have been at the College do you know whether any moneys have been spent on the trust property or given to the trust by the Archdeacon or by anybody else in the nature of gifts? – I know the Archdeacon has spent a great deal of his own money on Hukarere.
62. And I suppose during your time a great many improvements have been effected on Te Aute Estate itself? – Yes, a great many. The dormitories have been enlarged, the dining-room has been enlarged, new school-rooms have been built, new lavatories have been built, various conveniences have been added, water has been laid on, acetylene gas has been laid on, fire-escapes have been added, and vast improvements have been made in the drainage.
63. Has the income from the estate been sufficient to meet the expenditure? – It has just about balanced for several years past. When I took charge the school owed the Archdeacon about £1,700. That was all paid off, and the school has held its own since.
64. I suppose the carrying-on of the school depends upon the regular payment of the rent of the estate? – Entirely.
65. If that failed, as it did at Hatuma, I suppose the school would have to shut for a year? – Quite so. There is no other source.
66. Are you prepared to express any opinion in regard to the letting-value of the estate? ¬ I am not a land-valuer, and I have no personal knowledge about land-values.
67. Have you ever had any complaints from the Maoris or from anybody else with regard to the way in which the school has been conducted? – No.
68. Or in regard to any other matter? – No.
69. Or suggestions, apart from the question of manual and technical education? – We have had Maoris complaining and telling us we ought not to play football. Now, two parents have objected this year to their boys playing football, and we do not allow them to do so. But I think that is the severest criticism I have had from Maoris in connection with Te Aute – that football is a bad thing. I should like to say that I think it is a great advantage as an object-lesson to the boys to have around them, as they have at Te Aute, a well-ordered and efficiently managed sheep-station. They see the various processes of the work going on, and I think they cannot fail to be impressed by it. Many of them take an interest in the movements of sheep and cattle.
70. I suppose they see the men working in the fields and about the farm buildings, and the machinery is close at hand? – Yes. In addition to that the hands on the station are an especially respectable lot. They are men living with their wives and families round about. I can conceive of a state of things which would not be so satisfactory.
71. Do you think there is any advantage in having the College a distance from a centre of population? – Yes, I do, from many years’ experience. We are enabled to give the boys very much more freedom than we should be able to do if we had them in the town. If we had the boys in a place like Napier we masters would have to be policemen as well. As it is we give them a reasonable amount of liberty and privileges which in town they could not possibly have. Besides, I think the Maori is a man who wants plenty of room. It does not do to cramp him. He would chafe in narrow limits. Then, our boys in the country have frequent opportunities of seeing people who are passing through. We are quite close to the railway-station, and visitors come and give lectures and exhibitions and entertainments.
72. You have the telephone and other means of communication in the case of accident or illness? – We have not the telephone at the College because we have no need for it; but there is one at the Archdeacon’s, which we can use whenever necessary.
73. Do you wish to say anything about Hukarere? – No; I know practically nothing whatever about Hukarere.
74. Mr. Hogg.] You say you generally have over seventy pupils attending the College? – Yes.
75. How many, on the average, leave the school every year? – About twenty go out.
76. Can you give me an approximate idea of the number who have passed through your hands in the twenty-eight years of your charge? – I should say, as a rough estimate, you could put them down at five hundred.
77. Now, out of the number at present attending the school, how many are paying pupils? – This year we have only two paying pupils, which is very low. I should say there is also one paying half-fees, making three in all. We have had up to six or seven sometimes.
78. Is the payment uniformly £25 a year? – No.
79. Then there are ten provided by the Government? – Yes, the Government give us £20 for a boy who costs us £25.
80. Do the Government select these boys? – Yes.
81. Is there any difference in the treatment of Government pupils and paying or non-paying pupils in the school? – Absolutely no difference whatever in regard to education or anything else. They are all treated exactly alike in every particular. There is no privileged class.
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82. Do you think these boys that are being paid for could be educated equally and on similar terms in the high schools or colleges in the big centres? – Well, in the first place, they could not be educated for £25 a year. You cannot get them boarded in a grammar school.
83. You say £25 includes clothing? – No, it includes everything except that. Besides that, as regards educating them at the high schools, it is very much better for the Maori boys to be together, because they want a peculiar style of teaching. You require to know the Maori mind in order to teach Maoris successfully. Probably that special knowledge would not be brought to bear on a Maori boy in a grammar school.
84. You have told-us you have kept up a correspondence with a good many of the boys, and have been able to ascertain their progress after they leave the school: Do you think that the higher education they are receiving in any way unfits them for industrial pursuits? – No, I do not think it does at all.
85. Do you think such a boy considers it a degradation to work hard at any kind of employment that may be offered to him? – Not at all. A Maori never looks at it in that way. I have a boy who left me last year. He did not pass the matriculation examination, but he sat for it. He now wants to be a carpenter, and I want him to be an engineer. In the meantime he is working for sheep-farmers on the East Coast, and he writes me and tells me how popular he is amongst them, and what a fine fellow they think him.
86. Of course, you have referred to a number who have entered the professions and offices, and so on, but with regard to the others, do you know if many of them have gone into trades? – Not a great number have gone into trades. A great number have gone on to their land. They have not gone into trades because they think that a trade or anything of that sort is degrading, but simply because they do not take to that sort of thing. Years ago, for a long time, the great idea amongst the boys was to get into offices. I am glad to say that idea is dying out, and they are showing a great deal more inclination to get on the land, and to work amongst their own people, and so on. But I .should be pleased if a much larger n umber of them had gone into trades, such as blacksmithing and carpentering and saddlery, and so on. A few from Te Aute and other places have done so, but not so many as I should like to see.
87. I suppose a good deal of consideration is given to the different occupations they might follow amongst their own people? – Yes.
88. You referred to the curriculum of the school: is science included in it? – Yes, we teach physiology, which is a branch of science.
89. Do you teach such things as chemistry and electricity? – Never electricity; we had chemistry, but gave it up.
90. Shorthand? – No. The boys have taken it up occasionally themselves, but not as part of the curriculum.
91. No attempt has been made to establish a laboratory for scientific demonstration? – No.
92. Do you know of any boys who have taken charge of Native schools? – They cannot, unless they are married. The master of a Government Native school must be a married man.
93. But have they married? – I do know of one who has become a Native-school teacher. It is a matter I have talked over with Mr. Pope in years past, but nothing has ever come of it.
94. The Chairman.] Do you know of instances where they have made application? – I think Mr. Pope raised the objection of a certain amount of tribal prejudice.
95. Mr Hogg.] Have they had, in your opinion, a fair trial? – I have had Maori teachers in my own school at Te Aute for many years.
96. How do they succeed? – Very well, indeed; but they have been under my own immediate superintendence. They have been boys educated at the place, who knew what I was like and what was wanted, and I have had most satisfactory work from many of them.
97. Do you think from your experience they are adapted to be teachers of their own race? – So far as actual teaching is concerned I do not see why they should not. But in these Native schools a good deal more has to be thought of than the actual teaching. These Native-school masters have to be centres of light and leading amongst the Maoris. The Inspector of Native Schools will be able to give an opinion about that.
98. But so far as your observation and judgment go you believe Maori boys, if they received a superior education, ought to make very good teachers? – Yes, I should certainly go as far as that.
99. Why were the carpentering classes established some years ago discontinued? – I mentioned in my letter. After this agitation for more scientific and systematic training we dropped it out of the time-table, thinking that something would be absolutely settled in regard to it by the Government. It gradually dropped out without our being conscious of it. It does not mean we are not using tools. We are always using tools about the place: but I cannot quote it, because [because] it is not part of our time-table work.
100. Do you think it would be a wise thing to revive these classes? – Undoubtedly; I value them very highly.
101. There is a difference between the trustees and the Government over this question? – It has been a question of the amount of time, and now the Government have conceded our point. The question has been talked over a good deal. I think we must do something, and we are going to do something. It has to be done. There has been a good deal of delay, but there is no question about our doing it.
102. You see the difference of one hour and a half between the four hours mentioned by the Government and the two hours and a half you stipulate for is a very small matter after all? – It is not in the case of the Maori boys, with whom we have to carry on all instruction in English – in a foreign language. It demands a tremendous amount of time and labour.
103. But, still, considering the whole time occupied in education in the school is only six hours per day, do you not think there ought to be facilities for this instruction? – It is more than six hours. There is their preparation-work each evening.
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104. How much time is devoted to prayers? – About twenty minutes in the morning, and in the evening it varies. I take prayer three times a week, and I generally spin it out, not actually in prayers, but in matters concerning their welfare and the welfare of their people.
105. Do you not think a little of the time devoted to prayers could be devoted to technical instruction to their advantage? – I would not like to say that. We do not pile on the prayers.
106. You would not be inclined to substitute a secular education free altogether from religion? – No; I should have nothing to do with it. I should resign to-morrow.
107. Is any objection made on the part of children whose parents are Mormons and Catholics, and so on? – Never. In one case from Taupo I had a request from the priest that the boy might be absolved from attending our services.
108. There is no compulsory attendance at services? – It is taken for granted; we have never had to compel them.
109. I mean if they do not wish to attend prayers, can they stay away? – They come on the understanding that they do so, but we have never had to use compulsion in any case.
110. They need not attend church unless they like? – They have never asked to be let off.
111. For instance, if a number of boys do not care about attending church, or they disapprove of it themselves, or their parents disapprove of it, are they required to attend? – They have never said they disapprove. If a boy comes to the school he knows that it is part of the curriculum.
112. The Chairman.] Supposing a boy comes to the school who does not belong to the Church of England, and his parents do not wish him to attend Divine service, you would force that on him? – A case has never occurred. If it occurs you will then see what action takes place.
113. Mr. Hogg.] When a boy joins the school he is not told it is entirely optional whether he attends prayers or church? – He joins the school under the conditions of the school, and that is one of the conditions of the school. If a boy came to me and said he preferred going his own way instead of attending prayers, for instance, I should mildly express my disapprobation of his view, and would try to enforce my own.
114. You have mentioned that in your opinion the boys profit to some extent from the station-work carried out around them. Do you think they would profit any more if they saw a good agricultural population around them – for instance, if an agricultural college was established there? – I think they would profit. All these things appeal to their observation.
115. Are you in favour of an agricultural education being added to other branches that are taught? – As a separate institution I should very much like to see an agricultural college such as Lincoln College in the South; but I think it would be a pity to try and graft it on to this institution.
116. You think it could be very successfully established there in conjunction with the school as it now exists? – I think it would be a splendid thing, and I believe it would meet the views of a great number of Maoris of the present day.
117. You have told us you think it is conducive to the health and prosperity of the young Maori race that they should have plenty of room and freedom in the country? – I do.
118. If that applies to the boys does it not apply to the girls? – I have not had much experience with girls.
119. You see they have a Maori girls’ school carried on here where they have not the same room and the same playgrounds? – Yes; but they can always go walking out through the streets in crocodile fashion.
120. Mr. Lee.] In the establishment of Te Aute School do you think that the conditions of the trust have been fairly met, where it says that “a school shall be established in the district of Ahuriri for the education of British subjects of both races in New Zealand”? – That only refers to the one grant.
121. Well, that is a large portion of the land? – It is practically half.
122. Well, do you think the school fairly and honestly meets the conditions of the trust as a school established for the benefit of British subjects of both races in New Zealand? – Well, we can only admit the boys on application. We do not advertise for boys. We have never refused an English boy because he is an English boy; and, interpreting the language of the trust strictly, it would be simply the half of a half. It would be, strictly speaking, only a quarter.
123. Your aim is to make is a secondary school only, and to reach matriculation standard? – Quite so, and I think in doing that we are serving the best interests of the race.
124. At the same time you point out the great extent to which the Maori boys are really loaded here by having to reach a set examination and by having to pass that examination in what is practically a foreign language? – Yes.
125. Are you of opinion it is desirable in the interests of the school as a whole that you should attempt so high a standard in your school? – Both in the interests of the school and as a factor in the upraising of the Maori race I should hold it was so.
126. You say that a certain proportion of the pupils make use of this matriculation pass ¬ that is to say, they qualify for the church or for the learned professions? – Yes.
127. Can you give me a fair idea of the proportion of the whole school that would go in for that kind of work? – Well, to explain that one could hardly give figures, but a sifting process goes on as the boys proceed in the school. Those not fitted for the higher subjects gradually drop out, and only those who are in a measure fitted for it remain on.
128. You have shown clearly that the pupils are fully occupied and that time is an object with you? – Yes.
129. Would you not be able to take up more technical instruction if you could be relieved of some of the other matriculation work? – Undoubtedly. It is the process of matriculation work that makes such demands upon our time.
130. Do you think it is desirable to take Latin throughout the school when only a small proportion of the boys will go up for matriculation work? – Latin is not taught throughout the school.
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We only begin at the third class, and that very little. It is not until two years before they propose to sit for matriculation that they begin Latin in earnest.
131. I counted fifty-four boys learning Latin in the school? – Yes, that is so.
132. Now, has it occurred to you to do what we call specialise in the school? Do you not think that by specialising in your school you could differentiate, as it were, the boys to whom it is desirable to give instruction in Latin and the others whose time would be better occupied in, say, agriculture, or other instruction which would fit them for their particular vocation in life? – I should have liked to have had an agricultural school, not established as part of ours, but as a separate institution into which we could draft a number of boys who are not likely to benefit by higher education.
133. I am not supposing an agricultural college will come at once, and I am supposing you carry on your College as a college: could you not by specialisation give room for more technical instruction than is at present being given, and give plenty of time for it? – So far as I understand the Department has not made provision for specialisation. It wants technical instruction given to every boy except in special cases. I think you will gather that from the correspondence.
134. You would say generally that in your own mind you are desirous of seeing up-to-date technical instruction given in the school, generally under what you may term the direction and syllabus of the Education Department? – What would be your definition of “technical instruction”?
135. I admit that it is a difficult question to answer. I may say generally it means that the instruction given in any one subject is not the training of boys to a trade or a profession or to a. particular knowledge of a science, but it teaches the principles that underlie that subject. For instance, in carpentering the boys are not taught to build a house; they are taught the use of the tools, and the principle, we will say, of joining and mortising or grooving; it is, in fact, the teaching of the principle of a trade on scientific lines, for which purpose you must have your school properly equipped. I have been in schools lately both in England and abroad, and it would be quite surprising to some people to see the beautiful equipment they have in regard to plant and tools, and so on, which fit them for all this scientific instruction? – What you mean is the training the eye and the hand in these principles and applying them scientifically and practically. I am quite at one with you there.
136. I am now asking a question because I promised a Maori gentleman in Wellington that I would: Has the health of the school at all times been good? – We have had our bad seasons years ago; but things are very much improved of late years. We have never had what you could call an unhealthy school; but years and years ago – I am speaking of from fifteen to twenty years ago – we were not so careful as regards the health of boys admitted as in these days, and very often we had weakly boys come to us and they got ill. I have a list of all the deaths that have occurred in the place since I have been there, and the average is very small indeed.
137. It is not abnormal? – No, it is the other way; it is abnormally low.
138. You do not think that the school needs remodelling in its buildings? – Do you mean more up-to-date desks and apparatus?
139. I mean principally as to the shape of the class-rooms and the lighting of them, and also as to your furniture. Would it not be much better for you to have single desks for each boy? – I have had no experience of single desks. I am not quite sure where the advantage comes in. However, the question of up-to-date buildings and apparatus is simply a question of ways and means.
140. Do you appoint the teachers yourself? – Yes.
141. Are the teachers in all classes men who have had any sort of training: I mean men who have had previous experience elsewhere? – I, of course, endeavour to get men with previous experience, and I have had a great many with previous experience.
142. Have your present teachers all had previous experience? – Yes. Two of them were brought up by myself at Te Aute – Messrs. Cato and Olsen.
143. Do you think it is desirable to promote a boy from a class to become a teacher? – It has always worked very well with us. He begins at the lowest rung of the ladder, of course.
144. How is the boarding managed? – The actual cost is entered into the accounts. All our groceries come from Williams and Kettle, and all our wood and meat from the estate, and so on. We do not call for tenders for our supplies.
145. Do you think this school is able to take in as many Maoris as are available? – Do you have to constantly refuse applications? – Yes, we could take in many more than we do.
146. What do you suggest as a means to give a secondary education to all applicants, so that none should be refused: would you suggest that Te Aute School should be enlarged, or would you say that the State should establish another in another portion of the colony? – I think I should require to think that over; but speaking on the spur of the moment, I should think Te Aute ought to supply all the needs if it was enlarged – if there were larger buildings and a larger income.
147. Mr. Ngata.] In cases of sickness what steps are taken? – In the first instance, we try to prevent the boys getting sick by having everything clean and plenty of ventilation, and by looking after their health in any way. If they fall sick we have my daughter, who is an enthusiastic and trained nurse to look after them. There is a doctor nine miles away, and we can get him down on short notice, as we did one day last week. There is also a matron who looks after the boys. No expense or care is spared in the matter.
148. Is there any examination of the pupils on their admission to the College as to their state of health? – In the form of application I require very close statements about their health, and the Government, I think, do the same in the case of their scholars.
149. There is no medical examination as to a tendency towards consumption or anything of that kind? – No; but from long experience we can pretty well tell ourselves.
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150. In reply to questions put by Mr. Hogg you said something about Government scholars and others attending the College: are there not some students attending who received scholarships from the Makarini trust? – Yes, there are three Makarini scholars sent to Te Aute every year. The examination is held. in December, and the scholarships are awarded on the results of that examination. The scholarship is tenable for two years, and the amount is £35 per annum, of which £20 goes for board and education, and £113 is handed to the scholar as a personal allowance for clothes and travelling-expenses.
151. They would be called paid scholars? – Yes. I may say for the information of the Commission that these scholarships were founded by Mr. Douglas McLean as a memorial to his father. They were offered as a help to the Maori race, and especially in connection with Archdeacon Williams, who was a friend of his father’s. I believe it was at first suggested they should be limited to Te Aute College; but the Archdeacon represented that limitation should not be fixed, as it might be advisable to use the funds in other directions, and, as in your own case, Mr. Ngata, the Makarini funds enabled you to pursue your studies at the Canterbury College.
152. As to the sanitation of the College, what precautions are being taken to secure the proper sanitation of the College premises? – The drainage of the College has been improved in every possible way, and it has been inspected over and over again, and it is absolutely safe.
153. The disposal of nightsoil was not altogether a burning question, still it was raised? – For many years now it has been satisfactorily disposed of. We are contemplating a further improvement by the erection of a septic tank. I have written to Dr. De Lisle, and I have his letter promising to visit and report on a good site for it.
154. Would it be advisable to have a medical examination of the pupils for admission into the College? – It would be a benefit, no doubt; but I think it would be very difficult to get it in every case.
155. Would it entail any heavy expenditure on the College funds? – It would certainly be a benefit if it were practicable. I believe Mr. Bird will bear me out that special precautions are taken by the Government. We made representations to the Government years ago, and I believe the Government are very careful in sending us healthy boys; and, as a matter of fact, for many years past most of the boys who come to us have been particularly healthy boys. I may say one of the boys I was doubtful about, and I sent him to the doctor at once to be medically examined.
156. As to the teachers, is the salary of the first assistant sufficient for the work he does? – Salary would never stand between us and a good man; the difficulty is to get good men.
157. I suppose the salary is held out as an inducement to good men? – Yes. I mean to say it is not very easy to find good men; the dificulty is in these days in all secondary schools to get really efficient assistants. I have proved it in Australia and here in New Zealand in consultation with other headmasters.
158. What salary do you usually give them? – £120 is the head assistant’s salary. Add to that board and lodging, and it is equivalent to £180 a year.
159. Does that compare favourably with what is given in other places for work of the same kind? – I do not know, as a matter of fact.
160. With regard to the Native schools, I think you at Te Aute, with the class of pupils supplied you by the Government from year to year, can tell pretty well whether any general advance is being made in the system of education as applied to the Native schools? – I have no hesitation in saying that that system must have improved very markedly, judging from the material sent to us. The boys are of a better stamp, and they come to us very much better taught than they did years ago. They come to us nowadays knowing how to pronounce the English letters.
161. Nothing has been said about the food, and I suppose Parliament would like to know something about the quality and quantity of the food given? – The food is unlimited in quantity and plain in quality, and the results I think the Commissioners have seen for themselves. Our boys could not undergo the physical demand that is made upon them unless they were fairly well fed.
162. Talking about the improvements suggested – agricultural classes and technical instruction – do you think honestly there is any portion of the present curriculum that could be dropped out and replaced with something more useful? – I think we might introduce technical instruction to the extent we propose – viz., two hours and a half per week – anything more I should say would jeopardize our standard.
163. You told Mr. Lee that there was a system of classifying the students according to aptitude: is there a deliberate system of classifying? – I do not think I told Mr. Lee exactly that.
164. You said that there was a process of sifting going on? – It is only a natural process. A boy drops out unless he has a certain aptitude for going on to the higher work. That does not mean specialising in the sense in which Mr. Lee mentioned it.
165. The school is divided into the higher and lower classes, your fifth and sixth classes being the higher standards: could not some system of differentiation be introduced – say, between the Fourth and Fifth Standards – by which boys really not fit to pursue the higher branches could be turned on to something else? – If that does not take place in the sifting process I have just mentioned – and it generally does – then that is where a separate technical institution would come in, because at that stage the boys would have received a good elementary education, and they would be in a position to profit by technical education or any special lines to which they might be set.
166. What I understand is this: that when they pass what I may call the higher standard they go in earnestly for such things as Latin, Euclid, and algebra, which are absolutely necessary if they want to pass matriculation. You have yourself an acquaintance with the boys in the Forth Standard, and supposing you get a proportion at the end of the term of boys who are unfit to go on for matriculation, and suppose the proportion happens to be one-half, would it be possible to devote the time usually taken up with Latin, Euclid, and algebra entirely to technical instruction it these boys remained on? – Yes. it would be quite possible: but you would have very few
J. THORNTON.] 41 G. – 5.
to engage in it. As an illustration, there would only have been two boys this year, and I have got these boys into the higher division not because I think they have any chance of passing, but for special reasons in each case. In one case I want to keep on to the boy because I hope to send him on to Te Rau, and in the other case the boy is very anxious to pass the matriculation. I am perfectly certain he will not pass it, but the extra year will do him no harm.
167. Is there any possibility of introducing, say, poultry-farming and fruit-culture on a small scale at Te Aute? – I have had no experience in such things. I can only speak within the limits of my own knowledge. Horticulture we have in the sense of flower and vegetable gardening.
168. You had it on an extended scale some years ago, when the boys kept their own strawberry gardens? – That was voluntary; it was not part of the time-table work.
169. I gather from your replies to some of these questions that, in your opinion, it would be best to have a separate institution? – I do.
170. That on the whole it would be much better to have a separate system where technical education could be taught thoroughly, and agricultural training, than to attempt to graft this on the present Te Aute system? – I am very strongly of that opinion, and always have been. I think in the case of the Lincoln College we have a striking example of it. The boys in the secondary schools of the colony, if they have any desire for agricultural training, do not get that instruction in these schools, but are sent to Lincoln College.
171. If that was the case at Te Aute you could specialise in technical education? – That is so.
172. I suppose during the time you have been headmaster of the school you have had yourself ideas as to the purposes of such an institution as Te Aute with regard to the Maori people? – Yes, I have.
173. Will you state briefly to the Commission what they are? – Speaking briefly, my idea of the education at Te Aute is to form the character of the students in such a way as to influence the whole Maori people.
174. How far have these objects been carried out? – I think I may say that Te Aute has influenced the Maori people by its teaching, and by the young men who have passed out from it and mixed up in Maori society. I think we have succeeded to a certain extent in educating Maori public opinion to a higher standard, and that the Maori is a better man to-day than he was twenty years ago in consequence.
175. That would apply to St. Stephen’s as well? – Certainly; and to Hukarere.
176. Would you regard this Te Aute Students’ Association as a direct outcome of the Te Aute training? – I should, most certainly.
177. It is an embodiment, I believe, of your own purpose with regard to the Maori people? – So far as I am connected with it, it is, certainly.
178. Primarily the object of the association, as stated in the first paragraph of the constitution, was to organize the material turned out from Te Aute, and to carry on the work begun at Te Aute? – That is so.
179. I do not know what your view is as to the influence you expect the Te Aute fellows to have amongst their people, but I have often expressed it at conferences, and I would like you to indorse [endorse] it: they are to be regarded as so much manure, to put it very broadly; you may have apparent failures, but still you are laying down the foundation for considerable improvements in the second generation? – I am quite prepared to indorse that. I expressed much the same view this morning when I said I wanted the Te Aute boys to be a leaven to leaven the whole lump. In regard to apparent failures, I should like to say in a great many instances the failures are more apparent than real. We have known many cases of boys who have left Te Aute breaking through all restraints for the first year or so, and we have thought they were going to the bad. Then in the course of a year or two we find them pulling up, and they go in the right direction and live useful lives.
180. Mr. Elliot] Do you think it is desirable to have a mixed school of English boys and Maori boys? – I should say there is no objection to mixing up Europeans with Maoris in a certain proportion, but I should not like to see it done to the exclusion of the Maoris from the benefits of their trust.
181. You think Maoris should have preference? – I do.
182. It is the acquirement of English manners, ways, and idioms facilitated by the presence of English boys amongst the Maoris? – I think there is a little benefit; they each learn from the other.
183. I take it that the desire is to educate the Maori boy to the English way, and not to educate the English boy to the Maori way? – Certainly not.
184. Do you think the presence of the English boy with the Maori boy is elevating and improving? – Yes, to a certain extent.
185. And is the teaching of the English language, which is really the paramount thing, facilitated? – I would not say the Maori boys improve much in English from the English boys. They talk English amongst themselves – in fact, so much so of late that we have had to give them leave to talk Maori.
186. Is that desirable? – It is desirable in this way: that we do not want them to go back to their own people to be told, “You have learned English and forgotten your own tongue.”
187. I do not think the Maori will lose his mother tongue very easily in New Zealand? – They are losing it.
188. You have already said you are in favour of technical education, providing you had the facilities for imparting it? – Technical education to the extent we have argued for.
189. Then, the reference in the Commission to the inadequate provision hitherto made would arise principally from the want of equipment and teaching staff? – Yes. Of course, the introduction of technical work would imply that.
6 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 42 [ J. THORNTON.
190. If you had them you would go in for manual and technical instruction? – We have never been opposed to it.
191. It comes back to this: it is a question of money? – Undoubtedly.
192. You had a time-table in the schoolroom: can you let us have a copy of that to show how the boys are occupied each day? – Yes [Exhibit No. 39].
193. Mr. Bird.] Can you tell us what is the average number per year for the past ten years of students who have passed the matriculation examination? – I cannot tell you accurately, but I should say, roughly speaking, three or four.
194. What has been the average attendance at the school for the same period? – It would be about sixty-eight to seventy.
195. Then there are sixty-four on the average annually who have never achieved the end which you have in view when you set up a classical standard, the goal of which is matriculation? – I never anticipated that every boy who entered is going to pass matriculation.
196. I should say, if you set up the standard to be matriculation, every boy is ultimately intended, if he shows the ability, to enter for the matriculation examination? – Yes, if he shows the ability.
197. I want to establish the fact that a very small percentage annually pass: then should not the greatest good to the greatest number be the ultimate consideration in the drawing-up of the syllabus in this school? – The greatest good to the greatest number, undoubtedly.
198. Since the majority, from whatever cause, never pass the examination, have they not a right to have their special weaknesses considered and a programme adapted to their special weakness or special need? – But their special needs, in the vast majority of cases, are met, because they are provided with a good elementary education which equips them for the battle of life.
199. Then, you admit now that an elementary education equips the majority of Maori boys for the battle of life? – I do. But at the same time, to take an illustration, there are hundreds of students go up to Oxford every year and only one is Double First. You would not say Oxford is a failure because she does not turn out a hundred Double Firsts. I maintain that the sixty-four who do not pass receive the object for which they came to the school; they receive an education. The fact that they do not pass the matriculation does not affect that to any great extent. A boy is worked up to the matriculation standard, and worked in the matriculation class; he may not pass that examination, but he has all the benefits of the education, and these benefits do him a great deal of service in life, almost as much as if he actually passed.
200. But do you think these benefits are essential to his after-life, which, if he fails to qualify for a learned profession, must of necessity be a life of a Maori amongst a Maori community; in other words, is it necessary, if a boy is not intended for the learned professions, he should have to spend part of his time in learning Latin and the higher subjects? – These boys who have gone on to the higher part of the school, even if they do not pass matriculation, often enter into lines of life where these acquirements are necessary and helpful. They go into lawyers’ offices. You will not say that a boy in a lawyer’s office is not the better for having a little knowledge of Latin.
201. Then it appears from some of the answers that there is a sifting process going on with a view to selecting candidates showing the most promise, and you said, in answer to Mr. Ngata, the sifting takes place about the fourth class. If the sifting were made earlier, that is to say, from the time a boy presented himself at the institution – would not those who eventually drop out of the race for matriculation be more likely to benefit by having other forms of instruction? – We do not argue they would not. We are only too glad to entertain any proposal to their being so educated.
202. Of course, you can see that is the proper point to introduce a variation in the course of instruction to provide for those who are eventually to go into some learned profession? – Yes; but you do not imply that we are in any way opposed to a technical education in the true sense of the term, because that is not the case.
203. You attach a considerable amount of importance to the resolutions and doings of the Te Aute College Old Boys’ Association? – I do, as affecting the welfare of the whole race.
204. Have they, to your knowledge, ever passed resolutions in favour of technical education being given? – They have.
205. Could you give me the tenor of their resolutions? – They are simply of opinion that technical education should be introduced into Te Aute College. The whole matter has been explained to them at various conferences.
206. That is to say, that the old boys, who have themselves passed through the College, are of opinion that technical education should be given there? – Quite so. But these same boys also made it very clear that by technical education they did not mean that Te Aute College should be turned into a blacksmith’s shop or a carpenter’s shop. They do not want technical education and the resolutions of the conferences point to that to jeopardize the existing standard. Their views are very much the same as the trustees themselves have taken up. There are a great many varying definitions of technical education. The man in the street considers it is one thing, and the men on the Commission think another.
207. I think you said, in reply to Mr. Lee, that the Department wants technical instruction given to every boy indiscriminately? – Yes, I think that is my impression gained from the departmental correspondence.
208. Was any exception made in the case of any number of scholars? – To the best of my knowledge, no exception was ever made at all. The condition was four hours per week for every Government scholar, but for the rest the Government were willing to accept two hours and a half per week.
209. Was there any exception made in regard to cases especially approved by the Inspector-General? – Yes, some exceptions are provided for.
J. THORNTON] 43 G. – 5.
210. Mr. Ellison.] Seeing that you approve of technical education, what is your view in connection with industrial education-that is, teaching the children trades? – By all means, I should say, teach the Maoris trades as far as you possibly can. Make them into blacksmiths, carpenters, saddlers, or anything you like.
211. Have you ever thought of the means by which such an education could be taught to the children? – None, except by the establishment of industrial schools, which I have always advocated as separate institutions.
212. The Chairman.] That, of course, involves the question of finding money to pay the masters? – Quite so.
213. I understand you wish to make some reference to a letter that appeared in the local Press? – Yes. I should like, if I might be allowed, to refer to a letter of mine amongst your records which appeared in the Hawke’s Bay Herald on the 2nd March, 1906 [Exhibit No. 38]. I wish to say I am entirely and absolutely and personally responsible for this letter, and that it does not in any sense voice the opinions of the trustees or of Archdeacon Williams, and that I wrote it as a private individual and not as headmaster of Te Aute College. In addition to this, I should like to say that the Archdeacon himself was extremely pained I had written the letter, because it has always been his endeavour to defer as far as possible to the Government and to avoid anything like friction with them. As that letter of mine might be interpreted as working in the opposite direction, I should like to take upon my own shoulders the whole and sole responsibility for that letter, and everything contained in it. I am particularly anxious that should be recorded.
214. Does the District Public Health Officer visit the College at all? – Yes; he has been there occasionally, but not regularly. Dr. Pomare has visited it, and Dr. MacGregor, the Inspector-General of Hospitals. and Dr. Mason, the head of the Health Department.
GEORGE PRIOR DONNELLY examined.
215. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a sheep-farmer and runholder.
216. How long have you been in the district? – I arrived here in the end of 1866.
217. You know the Te Aute Estate? – Yes. I passed through it in the end of 1866 on my way to Waipawa and the coast.
218. You have seen it from time to time during all these years, and in its improved state? – Yes. The first time I went through the estate it was covered with bush, scrub, fern, and raupo and flax swamps. I have noticed the improvements made from time to time. At that time there was very little grass in Hawke’s Bay, especially at Te Aute, which was all in heavy fern and scrub and bush. The bush has all disappeared now, but the land between the present hotel and the Archdeacon’s was pretty well all heavy bush when I first went there.
219. Can you give us, from what you have seen, an estimate of the amount of money spent on the property to bring it to its present state of perfection? – A great deal of money has been spent on it. At the time of which I speak we had not solved the question of breaking in the fern country. I believe the Archdeacon was the first person to fence in land to any extent for the purpose of crushing the fern down with cattle and sheep and then surface-sowing the grass. It was the first land in the province I had seen so treated, and it was quite an experiment.
220. Do you think the country or any part of it is suitable for dairying purposes? – Well, Hawke’s Bay has rather a dry climate, and it remains to be seen whether dairy farming is going to be a success. Of course all that rich land on the plain and the swamp land which would hold moisture during the summer months might become dairying lands; but I doubt very much whether the dry soils of Hawke’s Bay will ever be a success for dairy-farming.
221. With regard to the value of the property? – If you would allow me I would like to make my own statement. When I first went through that country from Napier to Castle Point, the whole of this province right down to Castle Point was covered with either forest, manuka scrub, or fern. It was not a bit like what it is to-day. The original settlers had to break in the whole of Hawke’s Bay. It is not like the South Island, where the settlers on arrival had grass country on which to put their sheep. We had to starve our sheep and cattle in order to break in the country in Hawke’ s Bay. No person coming here today can have any idea of what the original settlers had to put up with and I think the Archdeacon set the first example as to how we were to break in that country successfully. I may say it has taken a lifetime almost, or the better part of one s life, to bring Hawke’s Bay into its present condition, and I hold that the people of the present day do not give the old settlers sufficient credit for what they had to put up with in those days. There were neither roads nor bridges, and very little grass country on which to keep stock while trying to break in this fern country. It is very much easier to take a heavy forest and cut it down. You know then what you have to do. You fell it and burn it and sow it and then ten months you have your grass. It was a different matter with our fern country. That has taken years to bring in. When I arrived here in 1866 the Native trouble was just about commencing Hawke’s Bay was then threatened with a Native war, and had it not been for the late Sir Donald McLean, the Hon J. D. Ormond, and the valuable assistance of Archdeacon Williams, I feel sure that in one night the Natives could have exterminated the whole of the Europeans in Hawke’s Bay. The chief Tareha, who was the principal chief in those days, had the confidence of Sir Donald McLean and the Hon. J. D. Ormond, who also had the assistance of Archdeacon Williams. The principal Native chiefs who assisted Sir Donald McLean and the Hon J. D. Ormond who was then Native agent for this district, were Renata Kawepo, Tareha, Karauria – who was Mrs Donnelly’s father – Karaitiana Takamoana, and Henare Tomoana. At that time Napier was threatened with Hauhaus, who came down to Omaranui [Omarunui], and also with Natives who came down from Tarawera and Taupo, and had it not been for the friendly Natives assisting the Europeans in those days it would have been a very serious matter. That was the position of affairs when I came here. I think great credit is due to the old settlers for the way they have worked and brought all this beautiful country into its present state.
G. – 5. 44 [G. P. DONNELLY.
222. Do you know the terms of the present lease to Archdeacon Williams? – I do not. I have heard it is a twelve years’ lease.
223. It is for twelve years from the 1st August, 1903, at a yearly rental of £2,200 per annum: looking at the whole of the surrounding circumstances do you consider that a fair lease? – Well, I am not in a position to give an opinion upon that point, because to give an opinion of that sort it would be necessary to go over the whole property. But I have told you the state of the country when the Archdeacon first took it in hand. I would not like to give a value to that land without first going carefully over it. I am not in a position to state whether the rent is a fair one or not.
224. Do you think the trustees acted imprudently in granting a lease for twelve years? – I should be very sorry to say so. Taking the surrounding circumstances into consideration, and the fact that the Archdeacon had broken the country in and had managed it for years, and that they had a good tenant, I think they would have been unwise to overlook the Archdeacon; but I am not going so far as to say what they should get for the lease. But I for one, if I had a good tenant to-morrow, would rather let him have a block of country at a little less than I would give it to one who would take all he could out of it and spend no money on it.
225. Then you say you are not in a position to express any opinion whatever as to the sufficiency of the rent? – No. It would be impossible to do so without going over the estate.
226. And you have no opinion on the subject? – I might have an opinion, but I value my opinion so much that I would not give it without going over the estate.
227. You never have formed any opinion? – Never.
228. Mr. Hogg.] You think that the Hawke’s Bay climate is rather unsuitable for dairying? – I have seen three seasons dry here, when we were feeding our cows and cattle on willows and straw. I am rather frightened of it as a dairying district, taking the district as a whole. But there are parts of the district, on the alluvial deposits – where you could sow many acres of lucerne to keep the cattle going through the dry seasons. But, taking Hawke’s Bay all through, it is not going to be a dairying district.
229. Do you know if dairy-farming has been attempted? – Yes, I started a dairy farm myself a few years ago, but that was on a swamp that I drained about seventeen years ago, and it never dries up in summer. It is of an alluvial nature, and land which will stand drought. But it is the hills of Hawke’s Bay I am afraid of. Now, Hatuma has been a great success since it started. The people have had two very good seasons; but if they had had the seasons I have seen in Hawke’s Bay, going into the third season without rain, it would have been a failure for dairy-farming. Hawke’s Bay is very different from the west coast, where they get constant rain. It is more a dairying district than ours.
230. Is it on account of want of feed for the dairying industry? – On account of want of rain. There is plenty of water; I suppose there is not a better-watered country in the world. The only danger we old settlers see is dry seasons. I have seen the whole of the country eight or ten miles from Te Aute dried up. I bought seventeen thousand sheep from Mr. Coleman, who lived there that year. I had some hill country in Patea at that time, and I bought them at 2s. per head. I bought his forward wethers at 4s. per head. That will give you an idea of how we suffer from the drought.
231. I suppose you are aware that on Te Aute there is a good number of dry cattle as well as sheep? – Yes. Cattle do well on all our runs. We could not get on without them.
232. Is it not the case that where dry cattle succeed so well dairy-farming will succeed? – I have seen a mob of cattle going from Mr. Ormond’s that were scarcely carrying their hides. They were sent out of the province because we had no feed for them. I would have liked to have bought them myself, but no one could buy them that year. A Waikato man came down, but he left most of them along the road.
233. Are you aware of the circumstances under which the trustees granted Archdeacon Williams a new lease of this land for twelve years? – I know just what I have read in the newspapers.
234. You know it was done without inviting tenders or calling in the services of an auctioneer: do you approve or disapprove of the process that was adopted? – The trustees are four very old settlers, and they should be capable of knowing what they were doing; and I suppose they came to the conclusion that they had a good tenant, and if they were satisfied with the rent they might say to themselves, “Well, we are quite satisfied with our tenant. He has taken an interest in the school for which the estate was set aside, and we are quite satisfied with the rent.” I do not say they were right in taking that view, though they might have taken that view.
235. But if an expert valuer is called in to give a fair valuation do you not think they are quite justified in granting a lease from time to time without resorting to auction or inviting tenders? – Well I would rather have a good tenant I knew than put it up to auction and have a bad one.
236. As a trustee would you consider you were perfectly justified in adopting this system? – I do not know what the duties of trustees are.
237. Mr. Eliott.] Knowing the land as you do from the time you arrived in the province, do you consider that in its present state it has been worked to the best advantage? – I should say so. The Te Aute people get the credit of being the best managers in the province. Mr. Allan Williams gets credit for turning out more young men as managers than anybody else in the colony.
238. Do you know anything about the land that is drained? – Yes. Everybody laughed at the Archdeacon in those days when he started to drain the swamp. Everybody said he could not do it, and he started a work which everybody thought would be a failure. But it has been a success. By making a bank of shingle and by tree planting he succeeded in turning the river which made the swamp. That swamp has been turned into a very valuable grazing country.
239. The Chairman.] What was the price of wool at the time this lease was given? – I am sorry to say it was at its lowest. We were very much down in our spirits at the low price of everything that year; but it is quite different to-day. We have had years of prosperity since then.
G. P. DONNELLY.] 45 G. – 5.
240. I suppose people in prosperous times are apt to gauge the price of everything by these prosperous times: in 1903, when the lease was given, you did not know the. price of wool was going to rise? – No, nor anybody else.
241. You know that the Hatuma settlers asked for a reduction of their rent, or time in which to pay? – I have heard of it.
242. Do you know they got three years’ time in which to pay arrears of rent? – I have just heard of it.
243. You see there is a college on this estate which has to be kept going, and the trustees want to be certain they have a revenue coming in to keep the College going: Now, having regard to the fact that they wanted to make sure of at least £2,000 a year coming in, as against an uncertain income, do you think that ought to influence them in granting a lease of the block – for instance, supposing they had to wait three years for their rent, what would keep the school going in the mean time? – Of course there may be surrounding circumstances that might justify them in granting a lease to a good tenant.
244. Archdeacon Williams.] I have said in my evidence that there is very little of the swamp in the Te Aute trust estate? – I am not aware where the swamp land lies. I know there is a large and very valuable swamp there, but what part comes into the trust estate I do not know.
245. Mr. Ngata.] In 1871 would you have considered 1s. 6d. per acre a fair rent for a lease of seven years? Yes, a very fair rent. The country was not broken in.
246. Then in 1878 for a fourteen years’ lease, would you have considered 5s. 3d. per acre, with no right to improvements, a fair rental for the Te Aute property? – Yes, I should say it was a fair rent in those days.
247. It was not a low rent? – No.
248. From 1892 to 1899 the Archdeacon got a lease of the 7,000 acres at £2,000 per annum, or at about 6s. or 5s. 11d. per acre: Would you consider that a fair rental? – As rents were going in Hawke’s Bay in those days – I am now giving a general idea – I think it would be about as high a rent as was going in Hawke’s Bay. There were no large blocks of Native land that people could get in those days at that rent.
WILLIAM RUSSELL RUSSELL examined.
249. You are a farmer, and also a trustee of the Te Aute Estate? – Yes.
250. When were you appointed a trustee? – In 1885.
251. You know the estate? – Yes.
252. And you were a consenting party to the lease? – Yes.
253. Will you tell us shortly what steps the trustees took to satisfy themselves the new lease would be a fair one before they consented to it? – The trustees, I think, relied a good deal on my judgment in the matter. I had myself been all over the estate, from one end to the other, and across it in various ways, and I suppose I know more probably about the estate than anybody except the trustees and the persons who live upon it. I valued it so far back as fifteen years ago. I know the popular impression of the estate is ridiculously wrong. Nine-tenths of the people who talk glibly about the Te Aute Estate know no more about it than they do about Timbuctoo. For instance people believe that the greater portion of it is rich alluvial drained swamp. I, who know more about it than most men, give the acreage of the swamp, instead of being 7,000 acres, as people generally believe it to be, as being under 200 acres. I have estimated that about half the estate is capable of being ploughed – I do not mean cropped, but capable of being turned over by the plough for the sowing of rape – but in saying this equally practical men have told me I have taken an unduly sanguine view of what can be done in the way of ploughing. A portion of the estate is distinctly poor land. Taking the land upon the right-hand side of the railway going up from Napier towards Waipukurau, I should think. I am right in saying that at least half of that block is inferior to fair land only. The remaining portion of the land on that side is good. The land on the eastward or seaward side of the railway is mostly good. But the Natives in granting the land did not allow the swamp land to pass out of their hands at the time they made the grant, and therefore the popular impression that all the land people see from the railway is Te Aute trust estate is a mistaken one altogether. Then, in endeavouring to estimate the value of the property, the desirableness of letting it on a. lease to the former tenant, Archdeacon Williams, or of dividing it into small blocks, was carefully considered by myself and discussed, sometimes formally and more often informally with the other trustees. We were quite certain of this: that a bird in the hand is any day worth two in the bush. We knew we had a tenant who had put his whole soul into the management of the estate for a great number of years, and who had improved it, as the Commissioners have been told so frequently, from a useless piece of country into one of the most productive pieces of hill country in Hawke’s Bay. We knew therefore that we were letting to a tenant who would manage the estate to the very best advantage. But we knew something a great deal more than that. We knew that whether the estate paid or did not pay, the Te Aute trust would not be allowed to suffer. In other words, we had a bird in our hands, if I might be allowed to mix my metaphor, who was not a man of straw. We knew that whatever happened, that if anything went wrong with values of produce, we had a man who could pay, and the trustees would have compelled him to pay out of his own private pocket the money necessary to carry on the estate. Therefore, on that ground, we thought it wise to let it to him. Another consideration which influenced my mind very materially was that upon the estate there were no buildings which belonged to the trust and no money to build any, and the consequence is that if we wished to subdivide we should either have to give enormously long leases and involved leases as to the class of improvements to be put upon the estate, or let the estate to men of straw who possibly would not pay their rent, and who would put up the very worst class of buildings and not do justice to the estate at all. Therefore we thought it better to let it in one solid block to a person we knew would pay, and could
G. – 5. 46 [W. R. RUSSELL.
pay, and who would devote his energies not from a money-making point of view, but from a spirit of love to the working of the estate. Then comes the question as to whether we arrived at a right decision. I jotted down last night the prices of some estates in the neighbourhood which have been purchased by the Government, and naturally we, know that the Government is always just and never attempts to do anything wrong. The Elsthorpe Estate, which I venture to say, though not so well situated, is a richer property than Te Aute, the Government bought and paid for at the rate of £4 9s. 11/2d. per acre. I may say these calculations are my own from the Government’s figures. Then the Hatuma Estate, which was fought in all the Courts and was the subject of litigation for three years, and in regard to which presumably a true valuation was arrived at, cost the Government £5 6s. 71/2d. per acre. The Argyll Estate, which adjoins the estate we are now discussing, was purchased by the Government in the year 1892-3 at the very period when we were dealing with the lease of the Te Aute Estate – at £4 13s. 9d. per acre. Mind, I am speaking of estates which were all somewhat similar in character to the Te Aute Estate – some as well situated and some not so well situated. I come next to the St Lawrence Estate, a neighbouring property, and here I can speak with absolute certainty, because I am a trustee, and we were able to obtain from Mr. Fred Williams, of Williams and Kettle, a portion from the Bishropic [Bishopric] endowment amounting to 2,000 acres at a cost of £5 per acre – a very good piece of property. Well, this is evidence that we were fairly right in our judgment. The Kauranaki [Kahuranaki] Estate, which is a remarkably good piece of land of a similar quality to the St. Lawrence Estate, and in my opinion superior in quality to the great portion of the Te Aute Estate, was sold in the year 1904 – mind, after property had commenced to rise again – in the open market to Mr. Chadwick for £5 per acre. Next, at the request of the trustees, a valuation was placed on Te Aute by Mr. Baker, because we thought it was right we should call in an expert. Mr. Baker has been Commissioner of Crown Lands in this district, and has been a very old public servant, and since then he has engaged in the business of land-valuing for a considerable number of years. He gave us the valuation of the Te Aute Estate which has been before you, and I think it makes the rental 6s. 3d. per acre, although I do not remember the exact figures, and our rent is based on 5 per cent. on the capital value; so on this calculation you will see that we get a higher rent for this property than the Government do for any similar property acquired after litigation or purchased in the open market. There is another point: if the trustees let the estate to several persons, we should have in some way or another to make a sinking fund to provide for the taking-over of the buildings erected under the leases, or else we should have to give inordinately long leases, which we did not think advisable. If we were to make that sinking fund we should have to deduct it from the rent which is being handed over for the management of the Te Aute and Hukarere Schools, and which is now hardly sufficient. Therefore, on that ground, we thought we were doing wisely in letting to Archdeacon Williams. I might say that the idea of comparing land-valuations of the present day with the valuations of 1901-2-3, and during which period the negotiations were going on for a renewal of the lease, is simply absurd, for, speaking of my own experience as a farmer, I was getting under 4d. per lb. for wool in those days, and the whole of the New Zealand farmers were, in fact, as near as could be going “up the spout.”
254. Do you say, then, in granting this lease to the Archdeacon you honestly believed that it was to the best advantage having regard to the whole of the circumstances? – I am sure it was.
255. Did the trust estate have money in hand which the trustees could have expended in roading or subdividing or preparing the estate for closer settlement? – None at all.
256. And you had a constant drain upon your income for the maintenance of the school, and to keep the school going? – Yes we had the responsibility of seeing there was sufficient money to carry on the school, or, rather, that the money did not fall short.
257. Do you wish to say anything in regard to the system of education? – No, I do not. I am quite convinced the gentlemen in charge are more competent than myself to give an opinion on that point.
258. Mr. Hogg.] Are you aware of any movement on the part of the people here to get this estate as well as others cut up? – Not this estate. I have seen anonymous articles in the Press, but nobody has ever come near me in my capacity as trustee or in my individual capacity.
259. The trustees have had no applications made to them? – None.
260. Apart from the question of rent and value, do you think it is suitable for cutting up in order to enable a number of families to make a good livelihood on it? – I should think so.
261. Into how many divisions do you think it could be cut? – You know I do not believe in very small farms. I believe a man could do very well on a 500-acre farm.
262. I believe some comment has been made on the fact that the trustees did not invite tenders or expose the estate to public auction: do you know if the process followed was the usual one in connection with endowments of the kind? – I should think so. I am, of course, only familiar with the trusts I have to do with, and we have never departed from such a course; and, again, being a worshipper of the law, I recognise if the Government will not submit the leases of land for settlement to public auction, you will, of course, approve of the trustees following the policy of the Government in that.
263. Do you know what method is pursued by the School Commissioners generally in dealing with education reserves, for instance? – I think they call tenders. I really cannot say
264. Mr. Lee.] I see a sum of £500 was expended in sheep in the early history of this estate, and that the sheep grew to 6,000 in 1870, and since then I can find nothing further about them? – That is long before I had anything to do with the estate.
265. Mr. Ngata.] You are aware of the division of the trust, that a portion was given by the Natives and a portion by the Crown? – Yes.
266. Would it be fair for the Land Purchase Board to take over for close settlement the portion given by the Natives towards the institution? – I think it would be extremely wrong to interfere with the trust at all under the provisions of the Land for Settlements Act. I think the trustees,
W. R. RUSSELL.] 47 G. – 5.
if unfit, ought to be removed and replaced, but I do not think the estate ought to be taken out of the hands of trustees and merged into some general Government land scheme.
267. Mr. Eliott.] The term of the present lease is for twelve years: was there any reason for fixing that unusual period? – I am not really quite sure, but I think it rose from the fact that the negotiations had been going on for some time.
268. The Archdeacon told us it was fixed to fall in with other Native leases he held? – I did not know that. I think the term was a mutual agreement.
269. There is a new house going up: can you tell us anything about that? – We had an exchange of land between the estate and the Archdeacon during the previous lease, and the Archdeacon acted very generously by us. We conceive we got a benfit by that exchange, and I as a trustee was willing to consent to a further exchange. Remembering how well treated we were before, I said I was perfectly willing to enter into negotiations for a further exchange. It is an exchange of a portion of the private estate of the Archdeacon’s for a part of the trust estate. At any rate, we know this, we have the advantage, whatever happens, because the Archdeacon is putting up a good building on our land, and therefore we have the whip hand.
270. It rather surprised us to see such a good building going up on such a lease? – That is the spirit in which we have been treated all along.
271. Mr. Ellison.] The Natives have expressed a desire to have one or two representatives appointed as trustees: what is your opinion on that point? – I should be very happy to act with any gentleman selected from the Maori race to act as trustee.
ALFRED DILLON examined.
272. You are a member of the House of Representatives for Hawke’s Bay? – Yes.
273. You are also a sheep-farmer? – Yes.
274. How long have you been in the district? – I came at the end of 1857.
275. You have heard the evidence given by Mr. Donnelly and the other witnesses? – Yes.
276. Do you corroborate their evidence as to the state of the country in the early days? – Yes, there is no doubt about that.
277. To bring you up to the time when the last lease was executed in 1903, you have heard the circumstances under which the lease was executed: are you in a position to give an opinion as to whether the trustees acted with caution and care. in that lease? – I think at the time the lease was executed a fair honest value was given for the land, for the simple reason that everything was in a very depressed state then, and when the prices of wool and stock were very low. There is a vast deal of difference at the present moment, when wool is selling at 1s. 1d. per pound, and then, when it sold at 4d. per pound. Sir William Russell made a remark about the Kauranaki Estate. That was in my possession at the time under a lease, and I was offered the right of purchase at £5 per acre. I can corroborate all that Sir William Russell said in regard to values. There have been big jumps in prices in the last few years.
278. As regards the capacity of the land for dairying purposes, do you think it is suited for dairy-farming? – Well, a quantity of it is fit for dairy farms. There is a man alongside of us who is carrying on a successful dairy farm; but there is land near the Kaikora that is very dry in the summer-time. There are several different qualities of land on the estate; there are some very good portions and some very dry portions.
279. Archdeacon Williams.] Are you aware that Mr. Priest tried to sell his stock off because it did not suit for dairying purposes? – I know the land is good for dairying purposes.
280. Do you know that he advertised the sale of his stock, and hired brakes to bring the purchasers to the sale, and that he did not get a bid? – I would not be surprised, because at the present prices of wool and stock anybody would give up the hard graft of dairy-farming for the easier work of sheep-farming. A sheep-farm pays much better than dairying.
281. Mr. Hogg.] You know this Te Aute property pretty well? – I think I know it very well. I do not know its exact boundaries.
282. Do you think it would cut up into a number of dairy farms and sheep-farms? – I think it could, and I hope some day it will be cut up into dairy and sheep farms.
283. If it was desired to plant homes there, how many do you think could be planted on 7,000 acres? – I do not believe in too small areas. I think the land could be cut up into 400- and 500- and 600-acre blocks, according to the quality of the land. A great quantity would not be agricultural land.
284. Near the railway-line, where the land is of exceptionally good quality, it could be cut into smaller areas? – Yes, into from fourteen to twenty homesteads.
285. Mr. Ngata.] With regard to subdivision into small farms, you say that a certain portion of the estate would be suitable for dairy farms: do you think the trustees could get as much out of the estate on an average as is got from the Archdeacon if the eyes of the block were taken out for dairy farms, because the rest would only be decent sheep country? – It is unfair to ask me that question, for the simple reason that the lease was made four years back. If the lease expired at the present moment no doubt more money could be got for it.
286. Mr. Eliott] You have been employed on the estate? – Not on the estate, but adjoining the estate, years ago.
287. So you have an intimate knowledge generally of the locality? – Yes, I have lived in the vicinity.
288. You heard Sir William Russell, as a trustee, say that he considered the estate up to the present time had been worked to the best advantage? – Yes, and I strongly corroborate the statement.
289. In regard to the clause of the Commission, “Whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage”: do you consider that the lands
G. – 5. 48 [A. DILLON.
have been dealt with up to the present to the best advantage? – I say that when the lease expired the last time the estate should have gone up to public auction. I say it is false sentiment to think that any person should have a right to the land after the expiry of his lease. But if tenders are called, I think, all things being alike, the present tenant should have preference.
290. Do you think there has been any disadvantage to the estate by not letting it by public auction? – No, I do not think so, because I think a fair rent was given at the time.
291. Mr. Ngata.] You understand the Commission of inquiry is from the point of view of the institution, and not of the gentlemen who want land? – I quite understand that.
292. Do you think that the Te Aute College trust has been unduly injured by the mode in which the lands have been let on the last lease? – I cannot answer, for the simple reason that everything was at a low ebb; but it would have been better if the estate had gone up to public auction.
293. Do you think a better rent could have been got? – Probably it would. I do not say it would.
294. The Chairman.] Supposing it had been put up to auction, what amount of capital would a man who took it up need to have in his pocket in order to stock the property and take over the improvements? – Well, probably he would have to pay a half-years rent down first.
295. Would he not need to have £10,000 in order to stock it? – More than that.
296. So that a man who tendered for the property would have to be prepared to put down £10,000? – Quite so.
297. Mr. Lee.] Though you have expressed the opinion that the trustees should not have renewed the lease without calling for tenders, still under all ordinary circumstances do you not think there may have been in the minds of the trustees and in the knowledge of the trustees sufficient information to show that they were justified in renewing the lease without calling for tenders? – No doubt an outsider like myself does not know the whole of the questions attached to the matter. But what I say is that a private person can do as he likes, but in the case of trustees, a lease should be open to public competition.
SAMUEL WILLIAMS further examined.
298. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to make a statement in regard to a remark in Mr. Dillon’s evidence? – Yes, Mr. Dillon made a reference to the question of sentiment. I have always requested the trustees not to consider me in the matter at all in reletting, so that it was open to them to do what they thought proper without regard to me. I think it is clear to the Commission that no sentiment was entertained at the last valuation, for I stood out, and it was not until my friends urged me to accept it that I did so.
JAMES HENRY COLEMAN examined.
299. The Chairman.] You are a trustee of the Te Aute trust? – Yes.
300. You have been in this district how many years? – Forty-seven years.
301. You were not a trustee when the last lease was signed? – No. I have been a trustee slightly under three years.
302. I suppose you have an intimate knowledge of the property, and know all the matters connected with the trust and the lease, and so forth? – I may say I lived on the property from 1859 to 1865. It was then in its original state.
303. You know the improvements that have been made? – Yes.
304. Talking generally, what do you say about the way in which the property has been handled and treated up to date? – Well, from the date that the Rev. Samuel Williams, as he was then, took charge, I do not know any property that has been better developed than this same Te Aute property from its original state of fern and rubbish of all descriptions. There was no grass on it when I first knew it, except a little in the various gullies and around the edges of the swamps. The hills as grazing land were practically valueless. I have read in the Archdeacon’s evidence that he let the property to one Mr. Pharazyn for four years at £4 2s. 6d., and that he then gave it up. Well, I was not on the property at that time, but I was in the succeeding year – in 1859. I was under the Archdeacon as manager for five years. I knew Mr. Smith, who was referred to by the Archdeacon in his evidence, and he bought about eleven hundred sheep and put them on the property, which was under a lease to him. Within a year – I cannot say in exactly how many months – he found his sheep were not doing as well as he expected, and he took them away to another place, in regard to which he had arranged with the Natives. The land would not keep them. That was in the year 1860. The place then was in a very primitive condition. There were a certain number of trust sheep on the Maori land, and the year I went there, what with wild dogs and wild pigs, I think we only docked about twenty-five lambs. The rest of them had been killed. There were two thousand to three thousand sheep on this trust land, and afterwards, by the expenditure of the Archdeacon’s own money, because there was no means of getting any other money, he fenced in this fern land and put sheep on it. I may say that the Archdeacon provided this money at interest, of course. The Archdeacon initiated this process of breaking in the fern land. He is really the man who taught the Hawke’s Bay settlers how to reduce the fern land into its present state. I myself in the year 1860, with a sack of grass-seed over my back, sowed a good deal of the land adjoining the school residence. This went on for some years, and gradually, by the expenditure of his own money, the Archdeacon got the place to become a self-supporting affair, and after that a payable affair. Then he rented the place, and one lease followed on after another, and I come to the last lease, which I suppose the Commission wish to know most about. It was given in the year 1903. I think the previous lease expired in 1900. There was a hiatus of two or three years between the expiry of the old lease and the taking-up of the new lease. I should like to draw the attention of the Commission to this fact. I have in my hand here the export-values of wool. It is compiled by the Chamber of Commerce, and it is a fairly accurate return. It gives the value of wool exported from the Province of Hawke’s Bay for each year from 1874 to 1904. What I wish to refer to are the years
J. H. COLEMAN] 49 G. – 5.
immediately preceding 1903, when the lease was granted. In 1896 the value of wool exported from Napier was £921,000; in 1897, £937,000; in 1898, £1,927,000; in 1899, £1,614,000; in 1900, £658,000; in 1901, £423,900; in 1902, £385,200. Well, that is the year I wish to draw attention to, when the lease was rather in doubt. The trustees, of whom I was not then one, were pressing for a little more rent than the Archdeacon had been paying. Naturally, with wool coming to this stage he was very dubious as to whether he could see his way to take up the lease at that rent. In 1903 the value of wool exported rose to £575,000, and it has been rising ever since; but in 1902, when the lease was in abeyance, it was £385,000, or nearly two-thirds less than it had been five years before. It is all very well for people to-day to say, “Oh yes, so-and-so is getting ls. 3d. per pound for his wool.” I heard Sir William Russell say he sold his wool for 4d. per pound. That is quite true. There were thousands of bales of wool sold in London for 4½d. and 5d. per pound. Therefore, you can judge from these figures what this property was worth in 1903 as a paying concern. I can only say, having heard Mr. Dillon’s evidence in regard to the estate being put up to auction, I should not have dreamed of offering £2,200 a year for it, because I could see, if wool was going to remain at that price, it would have meant a loss of anything from £500 to £1,000 a year. Of course, the Archdeacon is in a better position than any other man to take the estate. He had a plant there; he had his own runs around; he had his drained swamp and the stock, all of which he could work to the greatest advantage. I have heard a good deal about this cutting-up business, but very few people have taken into account the fact that if the estate had been cut up into farms, say, into fourteen 500-acre farms, all these farms would have to be stocked. Mr. Dillon said it would require £10,000 and upwards, and I think he is perfectly right. Well, suppose it meant a capital of £12,000, people do not advance money on buildings or stock for less than 6 per cent, and there is a sum of over £700 to be added to this £2,200 a year, which practically brings it up to £3,000 a year. If they could not make £3,000 a year the trustees would not be as well off as they are to-day under the present lease. Probably they would be a good deal worse off, because some of these small men might not have been able to fulfil the conditions. Now they have a substantial man who will pay the rent; and as to the idea that many people have in their minds that this place would bring another £1,000 or more if put up to auction, it is an absolute fallacy. I was not a trustee at the time of the last lease, but the Archdeacon told me, as an old friend, that he did not know whether he would have taken the estate at £2,200 except for my advice.
305. In your opinion, do you think the trustees did a reasonably proper thing in granting this new lease for twelve years at £2,200? – I do not quite agree it was a proper thing; I do not think they should have stuck out for this extra money.
306. You think this lease was decidedly in the interests of the trust estate? – Very much so.
307. And if you had been a trustee at that time you would have consented to it? – I should have been very glad to have done so.
308. Mr. Ellison.] With regard to the desire of the Natives to appoint a trustee, would you be in favour of one of their number being appointed as a co – trustee? – Yes, I would retire at any time in favour of a Maori who is acceptable to the rest of the trustees. I believe it would be a good thing.
309. It has been said it would be impossible to find among the Natives interested in this trust a Maori who would be capable of acting as a trustee: even if there was none amongst them capable of doing so, do you think it would be advisable to appoint a Native, if only as a sleeping trustee, to satisfy the Native people? – I say I am quite ready to retire in favour of a Maori who would be acceptable to the rest of the trustees. You would not wish yourself to put in an incapable man as a trustee.
TUESDAY, 22ND MAY, 1906.
HUGH JOHN CLARKE COUTTS examined.
1. The Chairman.] What position do you occupy in the Government service? – District Valuer, residing at Hawera.
2. What Departments are you connected with? – I am at present temporarily employed in this district by the Government Purchase Board and the Native Department. I value for all the lending Departments of the Government: Public Trust – in fact, all the Government valuations.
3. What experience have you had? – I have been in the Department for seven years, for five of which I have been out of Taranaki in various parts of the colony.
4. Have you had any practical experience as a farmer? – A farmer all my life till I joined the Department.
5. You know the Te Aute trust estate? – Yes.
6. Have you examined the estate with a view of forming an opinion as to its value? – In February, 1904, I valued 3,300 acres of it – that is, the area in the Waipawa County.
7. The total area of the estate is, roughly speaking, 7,000 acres? – Yes.
8. Will you kindly describe the estate as regards the nature of the land? – The western portion is very good limestone country. The south-eastern portion of the land lying to the west of the railway – line is a poor piece of country – shale formation. The land on the eastern side of the railway line east of the swamp is good land, but not so good as the best of that on the western side, and, on the whole, not so good, in my opinion, as the land on the western side of the railway-line. I valued the 3,885 acres in 1904 at £6 18s. an acre. For purposes of comparision [comparison] I yesterday went over the rest of the property, which I had not done before – that is, the land on the eastern side of the railway-line and it is worth at least 10s. an acre less than that. The land is in very good order; it was two years ago, and is now. It is worth considerably more now than it was then.
7 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 50 [H. J. C. COUTTS.
9. For what purposes could the land be applied: pastoral, dairying, or what? – It is at present used to the best advantage in my opinion. It is not well enough watered to dairy on. You could perhaps dairy on small pieces of it, but as a whole it is not dairying country.
10. Have you formed any opinion as to what money has been expended in improving the property to get it into its present condition, speaking generally from what you have seen? – Outside of the buildings, I should say about £2 10s. an acre has been spent over all of it.
11. You know that a portion was in fern originally, and 500 acres in heavy bush? – Yes, part of the bush is still there.
12. Has it been well farmed? – Very well indeed. There is a considerable amount of new fencing that has been put up since I was there two years ago – very good fencing, all eight-wire.
13. Are all the improvements in the nature of buildings of a substantial character? – Yes. Owing to its being used as a stud-farm the buildings are very extensive.
14. You know that the existing lease was granted in August, 1903, to the then tenant for twelve years at £2,200 a year: you know the history of this land? – No; the lease had not been registered when I was there.
15. Having regard to what you know of the history of the trust and the whole of the surrounding circumstances, do you consider the lease was in the interests of the trusts? – That would work out at 6s. 3d. an acre. Yes, I do.
16. Will you give grounds for your opinion? – When I valued the land in 1904 wool was rising, but people had no confidence that the rise was permanent, and the lease was granted nearly a year previous to my visit, when the rise was not so great: and the feeling of insecurity was more intense than even when I was there. A short time before wool had been 4d. per pound: people had not forgotten it. If I had valued it at the time I did for the purpose of leasing it, it would have worked out at not more than 6s. 6d. an acre. That was some months subsequent to the lease.
17. Have you examined the land that was taken in exchange for the piece given to the Archdeacon? – Yes, I examined it yesterday carefully.
18. In that exchange do you consider the trust got a quid pro quo? – I think they got the best of it. It was to the mutual advantage of both. It gave the Archdeacon a much better frontage to the swamp land than he previously had. It gave the trust land a better outlet to the main road, and the quality of the land they got was better than that they gave. The land they gave is the washings from the poor marl hills and is not so good as the average flats in the locality.
19. You think the exchange was on the whole in favour of the trust? – Yes, they got the better land.
20. It has been suggested that it would have been better if the estate had been cut up into farms and leased for, say, twelve years – offered by public auction or by tender. Looking at the whole of the circumstances, and seeing that the trustees had to make sure of the income to carry on the two schools – Hukarere and Te Aute – do you think that the trustees acted wisely in making sure of the Archdeacon as a tenant at £2,200 a year rather than out up the property and stand the chance of getting tenants on small farms? – Unless they had given the tenants compensation for improvements I do not think they could have let it at all in small farms. People would not put in improvements of a substantial nature on land of which they had only a twelve years’ tenancy. If compensation had been allowed it would have brought more out up than if leased as a whole.
21. Mr. Hogg.] How many homesteads do you think could be formed if it was cut up – out of 7.000 acres – I mean reasonable-sized homesteads? – I should say about twenty.
22. Do you anticipate from what you know of the working of the Land for Settlements Act that there would have been much danger of the tenants failing to pay the rent? – Not if the land had been let under land-for-settlements conditions.
23. But if it was let for a period of, say, twenty-one years, with compensation for improvements, do you think that class of tenant would have been found likely to fail in payment? – No.
24. Do you think that the school would have suffered on account of the revenue from the rents not coming in? – No.
25. You have not heard of tenants making default on anything like an extensive scale? – No.
26. Mr. Ngata.] Are the buildings on the property included in your valuation? – Part of it.
27. Which part? – There is a certain school and church.
28. Would the Archdeacon’s dwelling house be included? – Two dwellings are exempted, and the rest of the station buildings are included: 3,100 pounds worth of buildings were included.
29. We understand that the buildings are practically excluded from the trustees lease to the Archdeacon? – I was not aware of that. That would bring my estimate of the rental value down to almost what they got for it.
30. What would the valuation of the buildings be? – £3,100.
31. That would be a little less than 10s. an acre? – Yes.
32. What would be the unimproved value of the property? – It varies. I valued part of it at £1 unimproved, and part at £2. 33. What is the total entry of the unimproved value on the 3,800 tiered – £18,188 unimproved.
34. That would be about £4 10s. an acre? – Almost £5.
35. Mr. Eliott.] Is the land similar to the Hatuma land? – No; part of it is, but the whole of it is not.
36. Do you know whether any concession in rent was given to the Hatuma settlers? – I do not know.
37. Will you ascertain for us the valuation of Section 1, Block 15? – Yes, I made a valuation of that in 1894. [Subsequently witness forwarded the following particulars as to area and valuation: “Maraekakoho [Maraekakaho] – Block 15, Section l. 913 acres: capital value. £6,270: unimproved value. £5,221.”]
51 G. – 5.
HORACE BAKER examined.
38. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a land and estate agent and valuer, Napier.
39. You have been a good many years engaged in the land business? – Over thirty years on this particular coast.
40. At one time you were Commissioner of Crown Lands? – Yes
41. I suppose you have an intimate knowledge of the country? – Yes.
42. And of the Te Aute district? – Yes.
43. Were you instructed by the trustees to make a valuation to guide them on the question of leasing to the Archdeacon? – I was.
44. Your statement has been produced. Were these statements in the valuation truthful statements? Was it a faithful opinion on your part as to the value of the land? – Absolutely.
45. And it was made by you for the purpose of guiding the trustees on the question of giving a new lease to the Archdeacon? – I was not told that. I was told to make a valuation for a seven or twelve years’ lease.
46. And you are still of the same opinion with regard to the value as expressed in your written report? – Yes.
47. You know that the trustees afterwards gave a lease for twelve years at £2,200 a year? – I have heard it since.
48. Having regard to the whole of the circumstances as they existed at the time, in August 1903 – having regard to the price of wool and all the surrounding circumstances – do you consider the trustees in granting the lease did a reasonable and proper thing in the interests of the trust? – Certainly, all the circumstances being considered. I have read in the evidence the circumstances under which the lease was granted. I was totally unaware of the exact position when I made my valuation.
49. It has been suggested that they should have cut the property up into small farms and let them by public tender or public auction – leases with improvement clauses? – I do not think the trustees would have benefited by subdividing the property. As a former witness has said, there certainly would have had to be an improvement clause in the leases in order to let them. I made my valuation in 1900. At that time property was not sought after in the same way as it is at the present time. There was not the same demand for land. As a land agent I know what I am talking about.
50. I suppose the trustees would have to enter into a covenant themselves for the improvements? – – I do not know. They would have to provide a sinking fund out of the rents. They had no available money as far as I know. I do not know the full particulars of the trust. If I may express an opinion with reference to the subdivision of land in Hawke’s Bay, I would say this: We have had a cycle of particularly favourable years for Hawke’s Bay, suitable for the small farmer. But it may come as it has already done in my experience – that we may have six or ten years of heavy westerly weather, and in such case I am certain the Government will have to reduce the rents. If we have that spell of westerly weather it will be bad for the settler. A great many of the settlers who have taken up land have perhaps not had experience of a series of westerly winds in Hawke’s Bay. The last six or more summers there has been extremely favourable weather for dairying in Hawke’s Bay, but a change may come.
51. Do you consider that the Te Aute land is suitable for dairying? – Only a very small portion of it.
52. Do you know the land that was exchanged? – Yes.
53. What do you say about the exchange? – I say in my report on the subject that I consider it is slightly to the advantage of the trustees.
54. Mr. Hogg.] On what did you base the value of the land? – On the sheep-carrying capacity of the land.
55. You ascertained how many sheep to the acre it carried? – Yes.
56. There was a difference between your first estimate of areas and what you ascertained subsequently? – Yes.
57. What was the difference? – Somewhere about 900 acres. I will explain that. The late Mr. Cotterill wrote to me on the 21st June, 1900, as follows: “Messrs. Baker and Tabuteau, Napier. – DEAR SIRS, – The valuation made by Mr. Baker of the Te Aute College property for leasing purposes is based upon the assumption that the property consists of 5,955 acres, carrying 7,500 sheep, 900 cattle, and sixty horses; whereas the correct area is 6,909 acres, carrying the above amount of stock. Under the circumstances we return the valuation, so that it may be revised by Mr. Baker if he thinks fit. – Yours faithfully, (COTTERILL AND HUMPHRIES. – P. S. We enclose a tracing of the property. – C. and H.” This is my reply to that letter: “7th July, 1900. – Reply to yours of the 21st ultimo. I find there is an error in the area of the Te Aute College Estate as given in my valuation amounting to 914 acres. My figures were taken from a plan supplied to me with the instructions to survey the proposed exchange of land, on which the area of the large block is stared to be 4,244 acres. In making out my estimate of the letting value I have worked out the figures from the stock-carrying capacity of the land, comparing the results with the rentals at which other estates in Hawke’s Bay have recently been leased, and see no reason for altering my estimate of the annual letting value of the estate. I have altered the figures in my report. – Yours sincerely, HORACE BAKER.”
58. Notwithstanding the fact that you found the area was about 1,000 acres more than you originally understood it to be, you did not think it necessary to alter your valuation? – No; if I had done anything, I should have decreased it, because there were 900 acres more land carrying the same number of stock. I would put it in this way: We will say that 5, 000 acres was producing a net income of so-much; then if there were 6,000 acres instead of 5,000 you would have to divide the net income by the number of acres, and you would have found that the rental would have been
G. – 5. 52 [H. BAKER.
reduced. But, all things considered, I left it at what I had put it at. This is the way I arrived at my valuation: –
Income.
£
7,500 sheep – Wool, 8 lb. per head, at 7d. per pound 1,750
5,000 ewes, increase 75 per cent. – 3,750
Sheep sales, say, 3,350 at 8s. per head 1,340
Cattle sales estimated at 750
3,840
Outgoings.
Working-expenses £1,900
Rates and taxes 205
Interest on capital invested in stock, £7,800, at 6 per cent. 468
1,673
Net income £2,167
Net income per acre – 6s. 3d.
That gives 6s. 3d. per acre as the rental value of the property. But the rental value of the property depends in very great measure on the length of the lease. In this case a very short lease was offered to the Archdeacon – seven or twelve years. There is a very great difference between those conditions and the conditions under which the land for settlements land was taken up namely, a 999 years’ lease, at 5 per cent. on the capital value.
59. Do you think the trustees would not have gained by cutting the land up? – It would have been very doubtful. I was simply asked to value the whole property.
60. Do you know whether previous to this lease being renewed there had been any agitation here for the cutting up of this land? – There was long ago, but I have seen no agitation for it.
61. You say there was no demand for land for close settlement? – Hatuma was advertised all over the colony at very great expense. All these expenses are added to the rents of the land. The conditions are totally different under which the trustees offered the land and the conditions under the Lands for Settlements Act. Many settlers will go in for a 999 years’ lease – which is practically freehold, without any increase in the rental – when people will not go in for twenty-one years’ lease without an improvement clause.
62. There is only a small portion of this land suitable for dairying? – Yes.
63. Do you know if the land, the climate, and other circumstances rendered it suitable for fruit-growing? I dare say some of it would be suitable for fruit-growing. Most of it is unfitted for fruit – growing or for small settlement. I would like to say this: that before coming to a conclusion as to what was to be the value per acre, I worked out what the lessee was paying for the Pourerere Estate lease by Nairn’s trustees to Mr. Busby. I reckoned it out in exactly the same way, from the stock-carrying capacity of the land. It worked out at 6s. 2d. per acre. Also the Kohinerakau property leased to Mr. Dillon – 4,054 acres; rental, £1,160; per acre, 5s. 8½d. Chadwick to Dillon: –
Pourerere Lease (Nairn’s Trustees to Busby).
Lease dated January, 1901, for ten years, of 28,698 acres, at £9,393 per annum, including stock – 45,670 sheep, 64 head of cattle, and 50 horses. Tenant to spend £1,800 per annum in improvements. An extension from January, 1901, was granted at £8,168 per annum, all other conditions being the same.
£
Rental 8,168
Tenant to spend on improvements per annum 1,800
Total rent for land and stock 9,968
Estimated value of stock which go with property, £19,054: deduct interest on capital value of stock at 6 per cent. 1,143
Rental on ground value 8,825
Rental per acre without stock – 6s. 1d.
My valuation was made on a falling market, and wool fell very considerably afterwards.
64. Mr. Lee] In your valuation you say “land and improvements”? – My instructions were not to value the buildings and 130 acres (I stated 130 acres, but found it was 30 acres) on which the school buildings stand.
65. You made your valuation in 1900? – Yes.
66. The lease was issued in 1903? – I do not know.
67. If you had made the valuation in 1903 would there have been any difference between that valuation and the one made in 1900? – As far as I can remember the wool market, the probability is it might have been a bit lower, certainly not higher; but I am not quite certain.
68. Did you make your calculations on a certain quantity of stock on the land? – Yes.
69. Did you consider at the time you took the number of the stock that the land was fully stocked? – I said in my report that owing to the favourable season there was an abundance of feed, but that in ordinary seasons there would not be the same amount of stock. It was owing to a very long wet season that there was such an abundance of feed.
70. But, speaking generally, you think it was fully stocked? – Yes.
71. Mr. Ngata.] We have it from Mr. Coutts that the capital value of the estate, exclusive of buildings, would be about £6 8s. an acre? – I think mine worked out at about £6.
H. BAKER.] 53 G. – 5.
72. Taking his valuation as a basis for a twelve years’ lease, without an improvement clause, and without the right of renewal, what percentage on the capital value would be considered a fair rental? – I think if the trustees got 5 per cent. on the capital value they would do well.
73. The Government ask 5 per cent. for a longer period and much more advantageous terms? – Yes, and they make the roads. The eastern portion of this land was entirely shut off from roads. To have subdivided up the estate would have been very considerable expense.
74. With your knowledge of values in Hawke’s Bay, what increase would you say there has been between 1900 and 1906? – A total increase of fully 25 per cent., and in some instances a great deal more.
75. If anything, values are rather inflated now? – As a land agent I would not like to say they are inflated.
76. From the point of view of the taxpayer? – From the point of view of the taxpayer I think they are inflated.
77. Do you know that as a matter of fact the trustees got 3d. more per acre than your valuation – that the Archdeacon is paying nearly 6s. 6d. an acre? – I did not know that.
78. The Chairman.] Were you approached by any other persons to make a valuation? – The instructions were from the trustees. The following are the letters I received: “Napier, 11th June, 1900. – Messrs. Baker and Tabuteau, Napier. – GENTLEMEN, – ln reference to letter of 4th ultimo, asking Mr. Baker to make survey of lands at Te Aute, and furnish valuation of pieces proposed for exchange, we now request Mr. Baker to make a valuation for letting purpose of the whole of the land comprised in the plan enclosed, excluding therefrom the buildings and portion of land used by the Te Aute College, and, of course, substituting the proposed exchange of land. As the trustees meet on Saturday morning, please let us have the valuation by Friday evening next, and oblige. – Yours faithfully, J. B. FIELDER, for self and co-trustees, Te Aute Trust.” “Napier, 13th June, 1900. – Horace Baker, Esq., Waipawa. – DEAR SIR, – Mr. Fielder being laid up at home has asked me to reply to your letter of the 11th instant. The trustees wish to know what would be a fair rent for the property for a twenty-one years’ lease, and also for a seven years’ lease, in each case without an improvement clause or other unusual conditions. – Yours faithfully, A. J. COTTERILL.”
Witness: I would like to make this statement to the Commission: I have been told that it has been suggested from some quarter that I accepted a bribe to made [make] a low valuation of this property. I desire to say that I received fifteen guineas for my valuation – five guineas a day. I made the valuation in all good faith.
The Chairman: As far as the Commission is concerned, we have had no such representation made to us.
ERIC CHARLES GOLD SMITH [GOLDSMITH] examined.
79. The Chairman.] You are Chief Surveyor and Commissioner of Crown Lands, Hawke’s Bay? – Yes, and I have occupied that position for nine years and a half.
80. You know the Te Aute Estate? – Fairly well.
81. Mr. Hogg.] Are you aware that the Government have been dealing with land of a similar character to what the Te Aute Estate consists of? – They have been dealing with estates in Hawke’s Bay. The Argyll Estate adjoins this property. The area is 33,602 acres.
82. Do you know the price paid for it? – Not from memory. The rents go from 1s. 9d. to 11s. 4d. For some of the land adjoining Te Aute the rent is 8s. 10d. It is only a small piece. [Witness indicated on plan the different sections of Argyll Estate, and stated the rental.] The leases and the cost of roading and administration is added, and we strike 5 per cent. on that as the rent. That includes roading, &c. It is for a long lease. But 8s. 10d. an acre in that case is no criterion of the value of the Te Aute land, where it is leased for, say, twenty-one years.
83. Argyll was in the market in June, 1903? – Yes.
84. All the land was taken up? – Yes.
85. Are there any arrears, or has there been any difficulty in obtaining the rents? – There has been no difficulty in obtaining the rents, because they have had exceptionally good years lately.
86. What about Hatuma? – It was opened in April, 1901. The rents run from 5s. to 8s. 4d.
87. The Chairman.] Are the rents paid regularly? – Yes; but the settlers had a bad year to start with, and the Government had to give them relief by giving them three years during which to pay their first year’s rent.
88. But they went on paying regularly during other years? – Yes.
89. The first season was a bad one? – Yes.
90. Supposing those bad seasons had continued, what would have been the position of Hatuma? – I am afraid the settlers would have been in a bad position. The seasons have improved, and prices have improved.
91. Mr. Hogg.] Is it not a fact that under the conditions of the land-for-settlements scheme the first year is the most trying year the settlers experience, having to make improvements, fencing, buildings, &c., and obtain their stock? – Yes, I think at the time it was taken up the settlers were rather unfortunate, inasmuch as stock was very high in 1901. They did not start under favourable conditions, but they have all come out all right.
92. Is the land at Hatuma similar in quality to this? – I do not know the Te Aute Estate well enough to say. I have only seen it about the College; but generally I suppose it is very much the same.
93. Into what areas is Hatuma cut up? – It comprises 25,737 acres, subdivided into sections of from 112 to 1,150 acres. It is all taken up.
94. How many settlers are on that estate? – About sixty-two.
95. How many estates have been taken over in Hawke’s Bay under the Land for Settlements Act? – Ten. Hatuma was the first, in 1901.
G. – 5. 54 [E. C. G SMITH.
96. And you say the rents have been paid regularly, and you have had no difficulty in collecting them? – That is so.
97. Mr. Ngata.] Did the settlers under the Land for Settlements Act get rebate for prompt payment? – Yes, 10 per cent.
98. So that the figures for Hatuma – 5s. to 8s. 4d. per acre – would not be the net rental? – They would be subject to that rebate.
99. Were the sections on Hatuma and Argyll taken up at once or at intervals? – Generally speaking they were taken up at once.
100. Taking Hawke’s Bay estates generally which the Government have taken up for small settlement, what do you reckon the cost of administration would be? What percentage of the rental would go towards the cost of administration? – I could not say without referring to the figures.
101. Or for roading? – The cost of roading depends on the nature of the country.
102. Will you supply us with the figures as to what the actual loading has been, particularly in the case of Argyll? – Yes.
103. What class of farming have the Hatuma settlers gone in for mainly? – Grazing. They grow some oats, rape, etc.
104. And dairying? – Yes, some dairying.
105. To any great extent? – No.
106. I suppose the increase in the price of pastoral produce has induced them to go in for grazing more than anything else? – Yes. The whole block is not suitable for dairying.
107. Of course, each block has its own peculiarities; what would be suitable for Hatuma would not be suitable for Te Aute? – That is so.
108. The Chairman.] Have you in the office the plan of Sir George Grey’s gift of 4,000 acres? – Yes, I think we have that plan.
109. Was it shown clearly when the land was first given that it was in two pieces? – Yes.
110. The Governor’s gift was 4,000 acres, and 244 acres were added to it when it was conveyed? – Yes; I will bring over the plan and show the Commission.
SAMUEL WILLIAMS further examined.
111. Mr. Lee.] I see by the Te Aute papers that there was a grant of £500 to purchase sheep, and, speaking from memory, I believe that some 250 sheep were purchased? – Yes.
112. Then about the year 1870 that flock of sheep had increased to some six thousand? – Yes. Not that they had increased to that extent: I had made the flock up to six thousand.
113. We have no information as to what became of the six thousand sheep? – They were to be replaced, or to be accounted for at the end of the lease.
114. And were they so accounted for? – The same arrangement passed on into the next lease.
115. At the expiry of the first lease what would be the number of the flock? – You could not alter the value or the number. They were to be replaced in equal value. Originally a certain portion of the increase of the sheep that had been taken on “terms ” had been thrown in to make up the six thousand sheep above noted. I made up the whole flock in this way, but I ought to mention that in order to bring the original flock of 250 up to that number, I had been compelled to lease a block of better-grassed land than that belonging to the trust, and to greatly increase the number of sheep for grazing on “terms.” It will thus be seen that the bulk of the sheep were practically my gift to the trust. The amounts credited to the school year by year from the sale of wool were increased in the same way. This arrangement ended about, the time I took over the lease, and since the school land at that time only carried about three thousand sheep at the most, it became necessary to remove a portion of them; and so the sale of a section of the sheep of equal ages and sexes pastured on “terms” was advertised for sale in the Hawke’s Bay Herald. Tenders were called for, the highest tender being 2s. 6d. per head. I think that was about a fair value at the time. The value of the six thousand sheep thus amounted to £750 (not that I have any wish to hold to that valuation). I also observed in my evidence that the value of sheep at that time was so low that some of the run holders entertained the idea of not putting rams into their flocks. That was before there was any idea of freezing. (The value of sheep altered entirely after freezing was established.) At that particular period large numbers were sold at from 9d. to 1s. 6d. per head. Previous to leasing the land I found myself in an awkward position. I was the only clergyman in the district. I was placed at Te Aute without any funds for educational purposes, although I had for my objects the establishment of the school and of endowments for church purposes. I soon came to see that I must either take the matter into my own hands and work up the estate on behalf of the school, or I must retire and relinquish the object for which I came to Hawke’s Bay. After much hesitation, seeing that the position was not one I sought, I determined to work the property on the principle of self-reliance, through others working under me, and at the same time to foster other endowments for church purposes. Both Bishop Abraham and Mr. H. R. Russell remonstrated with me at the time for taking too heavy a burden upon my own shoulders. To show that the land at that time was comparatively useless, I may mention that in the case of the 4,000 to 5,000 acres leased to Mr. Pharazyn – a point Mr. Coleman has referred to – when his sheep were mustered at the corner where he had his homestead, they were no sooner let go than the greater number of them were away off the ground altogether, preferring to graze on other people’s land rather than to eat the fern on their own. This was before the fences were erected or the land grassed.
116. My object in asking you is this: whose money was this £500? How did it come to you? – Sir George Grey gave it.
117. A Government grant? – I presume so.
118. That £500 was put into sheep? – Yes.
S. WILLIAMS.] 55 G. – 5.
119. That £500 as sheep belonged to the estate? – Yes.
120. The Chairman.] Do you consider that at the end of your present lease you will have to account for the sheep to the trustees? – It is a liability still to be adjusted.
121. Mr. Lee.] Am I right in saying this: that this flock of sheep was taken over by you and utilised by you on the estate; but on the other hand you have done so much for the estate that it exceeds in value anything the sheep may have produced? – Yes, as far as the original flock is concerned. Of course, if there had not been an equivalent, interest would have been paid and it now rests with the trustees to adjust matters upon the termination of the lease.
122. All the same, you admit that this flock of sheep is part of the estate? – I admit there is an adjustment to be made. The claim against me is for those sheep originally; the liability is for the sheep without any further increase. This is a matter for adjustment between the trustees and myself.
123. Mr. Eliott.] Do I understand this: That when you took the lease you took the sheep over with the lease? – That was the original arrangement.
124. You consider that you are only liable for 6,137 sheep that you took over with the first lease? – Yes. I might mention other lands let on the same terms. I think in Mr. Nairn’s case when the valuation was made of the stock the agreement was that they were to be replaced at the end of the lease was to be replaced, if required, at the end of the lease.
125. Mr. Lee.] Presumably there are six thousand sheep on the estate: should not they be taken into account? – l take it that my liability is for the sheep at the time they were taken over.
126. What was the value put on them? – They were valued by two valuers, and I think they were valued at 8s. or 9s. per head. This was at a much later period after freezing was well established.
127. The Chairman.] What number do you say you took over from the trust? – 6100. I admit there is a liability to be adjusted.
128. Mr. Ellison.] Mr. Coleman stated yesterday that there were some other sheep running with yours: do you remember how many there were? – No.
129. Did any other of the Natives have sheep running with yours? – No.
130. The Chairman.] Sir William Russell spoke of some contemplated exchange with reference to the house? – It was mentioned at a meeting of the trustees. Sir William Russell said, “Let Mr. Warren make an application.” In the meantime nothing has been done.
TE KEREAMA TE KAHO examined.
131. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – At Te Hauke. I am a member of the Ngatimanawakawa Tribe.
132. Tell us as shortly as you can about the giving of this land for the purposes of education? – As I understood things, Mr. Colenso was the first missionary here. I cannot remember the year when Archdeacon Williams came. Mr. Colenso ceased his work, and the Rev. Mr. Williams came to preach the Gospel. Then the Maoris said, “We will have Williams,” and they kept him. We showed him the land where we would put him. Subsequent to that Mr. Williams asked to teach our children, and he said if so he would consent to stop in the district, and we agreed to that. The Rev. Mr. Williams took the children – myself amongst the number – to Otaki. We children remained there for three years, and then returned to Hawke’s Bay. Mr. Williams accompanied us back to Hawke’s Bay. When we arrived in the district we confirmed the gift of land. The land was given to the Rev. Mr. Williams. The land was not given to the Bishop nor to any other person: it was given direct to the Rev. Mr. Williams. In the year when Te Hapuku died we heard that the land had been exchanged with some other person. The people assembled at Te Hauke, and the Rev. Mr. Williams came there. I asked Mr. Williams to return me my land because I had heard that it had been transferred to some one else. Mr. Williams said that the land had been Crown-granted to the Bishop, so I said no more. My elder people said to me, “Why don’t you have some consideration for your clergyman,” and so I said no more.
133. Mr Ngata.] Did you sign any document? – No
134. Mr. Williams has stated that the meeting was held on the occasion of the arrival of Sir George Grey? – I heard of that meeting.
135. Did you hear the story told by Sir George Grey about catching the fish with the bait? – No
136. You were one of the Rev. Mr. Williams’s boys at school? – Yes.
137. How was the school conducted in those days? – We were taught arithmetic and reading.
138. Did you grind flour? – No.
139. Who was the head of the hapu who gave the land to Mr. Williams? – Noa Taikiwa. Te Hapuku confirmed it as head chief.
140. Are you acquainted with the school work being done at Te Aute at the present time? – Yes I have seen the school occasionally. They do a great deal of work there.
141. Do you, the donors of the land, approve of the work that is being done at Te Aute now? – I do not know how to reply to that question.
142. Mr. Ellison.] At the time the land was handed over for the Te Aute trust were there any people living on it? – Yes, my elders were living there. There were also some other hapus living there.
WIREMU ERUETI examined
143. The Chairman.] Have you any statement to make in regard to this trust? – I was born in 1861, at Te Aute, and have been there ever since. The Rev. Mr. Colenso lived at Te Puni, and he assembled the Natives there to hear the Church of England mission. They tell of one occasion when three hundred couples were married, and only one ring was used for the ceremony. After Mr. Colenso got into trouble the Maoris thought over the matter and came to the conclusion that as they had no minister they would have the Rev. Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams, who was then living
G. – 5. 56 [W. ERUETI.
at Otaki, was sent for, and. he took up his abode at Te Aute. My grandparents were living them at the time. When the old people made up their mind to give the land it was in this way: they were asked to give the land on which to place a school for the Maori children, and we were to put sheep and cattle on it, and the hides of the cattle were to be made into boots and saddles. The children were to be taught how to make boots and saddles and to spin the wool into clothing. The flesh of the sheep was to be used for food, and the milk and butter was to be given to the children. Owing to that statement the Maoris took the matter up heartily, and they gave the whole of the land. A piece of land was given to my grandparents as a residence, owing to their having an ancestral right to that part. That land was surveyed and we know the boundaries now. Owing to the land being given over for the trust we have lost the land. I do not know whether the land is in Mr. Williams’s hands or in the hands of the Trustees. All I know is we are living where we have no land to call our land. A portion of the land was set apart as a township for the Maoris. It was named Milltown. The Rev Mr Williams looked after the mill. The mill did not belong to the mission. It belonged to the Maoris, but was given over to Mr. Williams’s management. Subsequently the mill was let to Europeans and they used it to saw timber. The same people who gave the land for the trust also put the mill up. In regard to the giving of the land for the trust, my grandparents told me what took place. I heard them say they were asked to give some land for a school, and that they would put cattle on it and sheep, and the children were to be taught to make boots and saddles and weave garments. Since I have grown up I have not seen saddle-factories nor places to weave garments put on the ground. I say they have not carried out their promises. My hapu wish these terms given effect to. The other hapu wishes the same. They say that the school should be carried on in accordance with the wishes of the old people when they handed the land over.
144. Have you been authorised to come here as a representative to make that statement? – Yes.
145. Has a meeting been held? – Yes. They do not wish the purpose for which the land was handed over diverted into some other channel.
146. Do you say it has been diverted? – No; but we do not wish it in the future. In the years to come we wish the trust to remain as it is, and not be diverted in any way.
147. You wish the school to be carried on as it is now? – Yes.
148. Have the Natives been satisfied hitherto with the carrying-on of the school? – Yes; the Maoris consider that the school has been well conducted, with the exception of the making of saddles and the weaving of garments.
149. Have the Natives ever made any complaint or request to the Government or the trustees on the subject? – No.
150. Why? – I cannot tell.
151. Do they say they want a woollen-factory established there? – No; but they would like a saddle-factory.
152. Is there any other trade they would like taught there? – Yes, but they were not mentioned at the time.
153. Is there anything they have thought of since? – We would like carpentering and black smithing. We would also like to have the Maoris represented on the trust.
154. Was that stipulated for when they gave the land? – I could not say that. At that time the Natives were ignorant; they did not know how to write.
155. Do the Natives object to Europeans going to the school? – No.
156. Do they consider that primarily this is a trust for the Natives? – Yes.
157. But they have no objection to Europeans coming in amongst them? – No.
157A. Do they say that the Maori students should have preference to Europeans? – Yes.
158. Are you willing that the whole of the land held on those terms should be consolidated and held in one trust for the education of the Maori people primarily? – Yes; but the question is rather difficult. At the present time there are European children attending the school along with Maori children.
159. You expect that the income from the trust shall be devoted to the maintenance of a school more particularly for the Maori people? – Yes, because you must bear in mind the wish of the old people who gave this 4,000 acres for this purpose. Probably there is no other school in New Zealand so largely endowed by Maoris as this school.
160. Are the Native people speaking generally, satisfied with the way this property has been farmed and improved by Archdeacon Williams? – The Maoris think that Archdeacon Williams has managed the land very well, and also in maintaining the buildings and keeping them in order. But the Maoris think that the boundaries are not correct, and they think that some of their land has been swept into the trust that ought to be outside the trust.
161. Do you know about the exchanges? – It is in reference to both the exchanges and portions of land which they never sold and which have been swept into the trust.
162. Was the exchange a fair exchange? – I think so. The piece that the trust got is the best land. We desire that the pieces that have been swept into the trust by mistake be given back.
163. Do you know the Hukarere School for Maori girls? – Yes.
164. Do the Natives take an interest in it? – Yes
165. I suppose the Maoris know that some portion of the revenue of the estate goes to maintaining that school? – No, the Maoris are not aware of that.
166. Has the school been beneficial to the Maoris? – Yes.
167. Speaking generally of both the boys and girls who leave those schools, do the Natives think that the education they get at the school has been of assistance to them in after-life? – Yes; some of the children in Te Aute are good examples to others.
168. Did you go to Te Aute? – Yes.
W. ERUETI.] 57 G. – 5.
169. How long? – Two or three months, but I and others left because of the severe master who was then in charge.
170. Where do the Maori children at Te Aute go to? – Five or six go to the Government school.
171. Mr. Lee.] Have the Maoris anything to say as to the education given at Te Aute: does it meet their wants, or do they say that some of the education given there is unnecessary? – The Maoris approve of what is being taught there. The Maoris think that they give too much religious instruction – that they might limit that.
172. A re there many boys or girls who wish to go to Te Aute or Hukarere who cannot go there because there is no room? – I have not heard of that.
173. Mr. Eliott.] Would the Maoris object to the land being subdivided into farms and let to Europeans, so long as the rent went to the school? – I think that the Maoris would not like that.
174. The Chairman.] Do you say, speaking generally, that the school as it now exists, with the endowment, has fulfilled the expectations of those who gave the land for the purposes of education? – Yes, except that they did not carry out the part as to the making of saddles and the weaving, the industrial education.
175. Do the Natives wish that some of the teaching in the school should be dropped and that some of this technical education be substituted? – Yes.
176. What portion would they like dropped? – I do not know what to suggest.
177. Do you prefer that the Maoris should say fewer prayers and do more work? – I did refer to that a little while ago.
178. You believe more in industrial training than in religious instruction? – I would not entirely abandon religion – a fair proportion of religion is good.
179. But some of the time devoted to religious exercises would be more useful if devoted to learning trades? – Yes.
180. Mr. Ngata.] What was the land given to the Rev. Mr. Williams for? – For a school.
181. What was one of the reasons that the land was given to the Rev. Mr. Williams? – For religious purposes; that is one of the reasons, as well as education.
THURSDAY, 24TH MAY, 1906.
IHAIA HUTANA examined.
1. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – At Waipawa, near Te Aute. I have been in this district from my youth up. I was not educated at Te Aute, but I have often been to see the school.
2. What do you wish to say to the Commission? – I will first state what I have heard the old people say in regard to Te Aute. I have heard them say that the land was given for the purposes of educating the children – to teach them the new religion, European civilisation, and technical education, such as farming, blacksmithing, working with machinery, sewing clothes, and suchlike. It was also said that there would be cattle on the estate, and their carcases would feed the children. The wool was to be used for making clothing. That was the reason why such a large area of land was handed over. The old people were very glad of the prospect in front of the children. A meeting was held at Te Hauke in 1877. It was held for the purpose of protesting against the manner in which the school was conducted, and it was felt that the reasons for which the land had been given had not been carried out. I was present at the meeting. All the Hawke’s Bay people were assembled there. The old people asked at that meeting that the land he handed back to them, because the objects for which the land had been given had not been carried out. Resolutions were passed at the meeting. A petition was drawn up and sent to Parliament. Some of the Natives went to Wellington in support of the petition [see petition of Hapuku and others, Parliamentary Paper I. – 3A, 1877.] The Committee of the House reported that they had no recommendation to make. The petition set out that the petitioners objected to the manner in which the school was conducted, and they recommended that the land be cut up into smaller areas and be leased to more tenants. In consequence of the report of the Committee, the Natives took no further steps. Some of the Europeans in Hawke’s Bay supported the petition. I come here partly on my own account, and also as representing the Maoris. When they heard that I wished to make a statement they said, “You also represent us while you are there.” I would like a technical and industrial school established there. Now a child may be taught at Te Aute, and perhaps it is found that he is a suitable lad to become a minister of the church and he is sent on to Te Rau College at Gisborne, and he becomes a minister. That gives effect to everything so far as religion is concerned. That is very good. But I would also like to see some of the other promises made to the Natives when the land was handed over given effect to. But the master finds that a particular boy has not a strong brain, but that boy may have a strong body; then let that boy he taught suitable work, such as farming. I desire to see the scope of the school widened. We will say there are seventy children at Te Aute – perhaps more. I consider that the most of those children are wasting their time. A number of these boys are suitable to be taught other things than they are being taught. Owing to some children not being smart, they have been sent back to their parents, and the children have learned nothing. Had there been a technical school there these boys would have been taught something useful. It is thirty years since Te Aute has been carried on in the way it is now, and I think it is time there was some change. I wish Te Aute to always remain a Native school, because there is only one Maori school for the Hawke’s Bay District. Of course I know there is a want of money. I leave it to the trustees to improve the estate, and obtain the necessary revenue to carry out these things. There is another suggestion I would like to make. All the teachers at Te Aute should be certificated teachers. I know that the only salvation of the Maoris is to train their hands to work, so that they may be able to earn their living the same as the Pakeha. The Pakeha is taught from his youth up to earn his living. It is said that the Maori is a lazy race. Perhaps the teaching of
8 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 58 [I. HUTANA.
these trades would be suitable for the Maoris. The Maoris have now been carrying on their Maori Councils for five years, educating themselves in Pakeha ways. In the same way they should have a – wider scope in regard to education. I want the industrial side of education given more attention to in the Te Aute College. We have been told that Ngata and Pomare are the fruits of the teaching at Te Aute. I say No; it was not so. It was because their parents had money, and they were sent to higher schools to finish their education. There are plenty of children just as able as Ngata, but owing to their parents having no money those children have had to go back to the kainga, and therefore the knowledge they have gained was practically useless to them. I think in these days you ought to widen the scope of education for the Maoris. I have nothing to say against Archdeacon Williams or Mr. Thornton. A large number of children from other tribes come to Te Aute. It is only right that those tribes should do something to strengthen the school; they should give either land or money. If the outside tribes do not do that, I think the Government ought to give more money to strengthen the school.
3. Apart from the education given at the school, have the Natives any fault to find with the management of the estate? – No, I know nothing of any objections by the Maoris as regards the trustees, but I know that in 1877 the Natives expressed their opinion that the land was not properly leased, and could be cut up, and thus increase the revenue.
4. Is it your opinion and the opinion of those you represent that a larger revenue could be got from this estate by having it subdivided? – We think the revenue from rents would be increased by cutting up the land. That was the opinion the Maoris held in 1877, and from that till the present day I have seen no reason to change my opinion.
5. Mr. Hogg.] I suppose that what you and the other Maoris want is to see more people on Te Aute? – Yes.
6. You think it would be an advantage to have more homes there? – Yes, if there were more buildings there would be a higher rental given for the land.
7. Do you think if there were a number of farms there instead of the present big station it would have an educational effect of a good character on the boys? – Yes, that is one of the things I would like to see.
8. Would they likely be benefited if there was agriculture, cropping, gardening, and fruit- growing carried on there? – Yes. I do not think so very much of farming being taught the children a Maori can easily teach himself; but there are other trades of which the Pakeha possesses a knowledge that I would like to see established there.
9. Are there many Maori families excluded from the benefits of the Te Aute College? I have heard that some people have taken their children to Te Aute and they have not been admitted; and, again, some go there for some years and return to their homes without finishing their education, and in some cases they have again asked for admission, but the request has not been granted.
10. Mr. Lee.] If I understand you aright, you mean that those best boys should be like Pomare and Ngata? – Yes.
11. Then there are many boys who are not able to do the higher work who could be taught something which would be useful to them in after-life? – Yes
12. Some would farm the land. Those who are to farm the land should be taught something, about the soil, about plants, and how they are grown? – The master would have no difficulty in picking out his pupils suited for the different occupations.
13. You would have professional men, the farming class, traders, and engineering; and in the case of the latter the students would be taught something about steam-power, electricity, and the working of metals? – Yes. We want them to learn as much as the Japanese have learnt.
14. The Chairman.] Let me read the following extract from an article in the Nineteenth Century, April, 1906, page 678, by R. G. Wilberforce, on “Education for Country Children”: “The time is come when it ought to be recognised that all boys are not equally endowed for their life struggle. Some indeed are fit to labour with their brain, but others are fitted to work with their bodies, some few to work with both” – Yes, that is so. It will not do in these times to train a boy in brain-work only.
15. Mr. Lee.] All they could teach a boy in the school would be the principles of a trade; they could not teach him the trade itself? – Yes; as long as they put him in the way of learning a trade it is all right.
16. Mr. Eliott.] Have you been taught a trade? – No; I was never at school.
17. From what do you derive your income? – I get my living out of the land by hard work.
18. Do you object to European boys going to Te Aute? – I would like European boys not to be admitted.
19. Why? – If European children are admitted the master will give his best attention to them, and neglect the Maori boys.
20. The Chairman.] Why do you say that? – I have learnt it from observation of other schools. I think it would be better not to admit European children to Te Aute. There are plenty of European schools, whereas there is only one Maori school.
21. Mr. Eliott.] You said you would like Te Aute to be subdivided into farms, and, of course, there would be bound to be families there: where are those children to go to school? – If there is a European population there they can erect a school of their own.
PERA WHERARO examined.
22. The Chairman.] How long have you been in this district? – I have lived for seventy years in Hawke’s Bay. I know what the old people said when they gave the land. I was here then. I am speaking on behalf of myself and the people. They asked me to represent them because I heard the old men talk about these things. The main reason for giving the land was, first of all, their great desire for religion to be taught and the inducement held out to the children being taught the
P. WHERARO.] 59 G. – 5.
knowledge and civilisation of the Europeans. They gave the land for the benefit of the children who would attend the school. They also handed over all the children to the Rev. Mr. Williams at that time. Mr. Williams then conducted the mission; but the land was given for the benefit of the children. It was intended that the land should produce cattle and food for the benefit of the children.” So far as I know, there were only two givings or gifts – the first by the Maoris and the second by the Crown. Owing to, as the Natives thought, some mismanagement in connection with the trust, a meeting of the Natives was held in 1877. Renata Kawepo said at that meeting, “Give me back Te Aute.” Mr. Williams was present. The request was made by Renata on behalf of all the people that the land should be handed back. I am not very clear as to their reason for asking that the land should be returned. The reason will be found set out in the petition forwarded to Parliament at that time in charge of Karaitiana Takamoana, who was then the member for the district. That petition was accompanied to Wellington by a large number of chiefs from Hawke’s Bay.
23. Had the Natives any fault to find – apart from the education – with the way the farm was being improved and developed? – We noticed that a great deal of fault lay with the children. Many of them had a strong desire to return home to their parents. When the Natives handed over the land for the school, they set apart a place for a Native town. They put a flour-mill there. Land was handed over for the benefit of the children, so that the children should be taught European knowledge.
24. Have you or the other Natives anything to say to the way the trustees have dealt with the leasing of the land? – No; I know nothing about that.
25. Have you anything to say with respect to cutting up the land into small farms? – No.
26. Have the Natives any opinion as to what would be a reasonable rent for the whole property? – I cannot express any opinion on that.
27. Mr. Lee.] Have any of your boys gone to Te Aute? – Yes, one boy; but he ran home. I chastised him for doing so; but it was no use. Some other boys were like my own, and ran home. I expect they were homesick, and wanted to get back to their mothers.
28. Mr. Eliott.] D o the boys get plenty to eat at Te Aute? – I do not know.
29. Do you object to football? – It sometimes injures children.
30. The Chairman.] What do you want taught at the school? – Any knowledge that would give the Maori the knowledge of the European, and benefit them in after-life in obtaining a livelihood.
31. Do the Maoris go to racecourses? – Yes; they go there and waste their money – both old and young people and men and women.
32. Mr. Lee.] Do you know whether many of the boys have been ill at Te Aute? – Yes: I lost a grandchild there. A great many children died there.
33. The Chairman.] Do you think the Native boys thrive well under their confinement in the school, or does it affect their health? – I could not say. I should think they would be more comfortable indoors.
FRIDAY, 25TH MAY, 1906:
The Chairman: Before proceeding with the examination of witnesses I desire to intimate that I have received from the lady principal of the Hukarere Maori Girls’ School a statement in regard to that institution, as follows: –
“The Hukarere School for Maori girls was opened in June, 1875, with accommodation for twenty pupils. It was soon found necessary to enlarge the building, and now we have room for sixty girls. The teaching as first was quite elementary, but now the school consists of an upper and a lower division, the lower being worked in accordance with the Native schools’ syllabus, and the upper with that of the district schools. Those pupils who pass Standard VI and Standard VII receive certificates from the Education Department. At the present time three who have Standard VII certificates are receiving extra instruction with a view to their becoming teachers. Religious instruction is given regularly, as the great object of the school is to train up good, useful, Christian women, who may become a power for good in their own homes. They are taught all kinds of domestic work, including cooking, washing, and ironing, and to make and mend their own clothes. The elder girls learn dressmaking, to which about five hours per week are devoted, and once a week they attend a cooking class in the town, which is much appreciated. The girls rise early, as no servants are kept, and all the work of the house has to be done before 9 o’clock, one girl only remaining out of school to prepare dinner. The work is taken in rotation, being changed every four weeks, so that all may have a chance of learning the various branches of work. The prayer-bell rings at 7.30 a.m. The school hours are from 9 a m. to 12, and from 2 to 4 p.m., with an hour and a quarter’s preparation in the evening. During the time the school has been in existence we have been much indebted to many valuable helpers, and latterly I have been relieved of much responsibility in connection with the work by the present head of the school, Miss Bulstrode, under whose able direction both the teaching and domestic work are carried on. In all 614 girls have been received into the school since the commencement. A majority of the old pupils have married and are settled down in homes of their own, and there are several children of old scholars in the school at the present time. Of the more advanced pupils as many as nineteen have become teachers, some only for a time; but eight at least are engaged in teaching at present in schools in various parts of the country. A few of them hold teachers certificates. Four are assisting in missionary work amongst their own people; five have taken up nursing; a good many maintain themselves by dressmaking; and others are usefully employed, some as domestic servants, and some in other ways – A. M. WILLIAMS, Hukarere, Napier, 22nd May, 1906.”
G. – 5. 60
PENI TE UAMAIRANGI examined.
1. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – At Te Waipatu, near Hastings.
2. Do you work on your land? – Yes, I do farming and other things.
3. Do you know that Mr. Ngata, a member of the House of Representatives and a member of this Commission, has asked you to come here to give evidence? – Yes, a policeman informed me of that fact at 7 o’clock last evening.
4. How long have you been in this district? – From my birth. I do not know my age.
5. Was Mr. Williams here when you- were born? – He had not yet come. I was born before his arrival.
6. Do you remember the time when Mr. Williams came here? – Yes
7. Do you remember the school being started at Te Aute? – Yes.
8. Did you attend that school? – No. I was educated at Otaki School.
9. Do you wish to make any statement on behalf of the Maoris? – In the year 1851 I returned from Waikato, where I had been to bring back some of our people who had been taken prisoners in war in former years. I went to Mangere, near Onehunga, for them in the year 1851, and I returned in the following year, and brought back thirty prisoners. When I arrived here Mr. Williams arrived also, and he asked the Natives here to give him children to take to Otaki School. I consented to go to school, and I went to Otaki.
10. How many went with you to school? – There were fourteen males and one girl. When I use the word “children” I mean we were well-grown lads and young men. We arrived at Otaki, and in the following year, in 1853, Mr. Williams returned to Hawke’s Bay, and brought me with him. In 1854 Mr. Williams brought all the Hawke’s Bay people back from the Otaki School. I left Mr. Williams and the other Hawke’s Bay people at Te Aute, and came on to my own kainga at Waitangi. It was at that time that Te Aute was handed over by my parents and grandparents for a college to teach the children. I cannot tell you the month of the year, but I know Te Aute was handed over for the benefit of the children.
11. Were you present at any meeting when the Natives stated for what purpose the land was given? – The principal reason that I heard why Te Aute was given was that it might be a kainga, or place at which the children could be educated; that they had given this piece of land to be a permanent place for a school. I may say that during the time that Karaitiana was a member of Parliament the Natives sent a petition asking that the land should be returned to them. It was the Te Aute people who objected and who sent the petition, but out of consideration for Mr. Williams, and owing to the fact that the land had been given by their grandparents, who were dead, they did not follow the petition up, and it came to nothing.
12. Did you sign the petition? – I do not think so. I do not remember.
13. Why did they want the land given back at- that time? – I do not quite know what the grounds of the petition were.
14. Was there a school there then? – Yes.
15. Were the Natives satisfied with the school? – Yes.
16. The children were being taught? – Yes, they were well taught.
17. Who was teaching them at the school? – I cannot tell you.
18. Who was farming the land? – It was being used by Mr. Williams for farming, and for growing sheep and cattle.
19. Do you know to whom the Natives intended to give the land – to the Queen, or to anybody else? – They gave it to Mr. Williams himself. He was the man they gave the land to.
20. Was any condition attached to the gift? – All I know is that the principal condition attached to the giving of the land was that it was given to maintain the children at the school.
21. Have the Natives had any complaints to find about the way in which the school has been carried on? – Yes, I have heard some objections. One objection is that when they have sent the local children there, children of the donors of the land, they have found the school all taken up with children from other districts, and that there was no room for their children. I have heard grumbling at that.
22. What did the Natives wish their children to be taught at that school? – They did not know anything about this technical education. That is a thing that has only recently sprung up.
23. When the land was first given was there anything said about what the children were to be taught? – Yes, that they were to be educated to be like Europeans. All I heard was that they were to go to school and learn the knowledge of the Pakehas, and to become like Pakehas.
24. Did you hear anything about them being taught to make garments out of wool? – Yes; they were to be taught weaving garments, and blacksmithing, and carpentering, and all other trades.
25. Have you heard it has been said it would be better to cut the estate up into farms: have you or the people you have been talking to any opinion on that subject? – Yes, I have heard that mentioned recently. I do not know whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing.
26. Do the Natives know about the leases which were given to the Archdeacon? – Yes, we heard about them in recent times.
27. You know he was paying rent for the estate? – Yes, that is what was told to us.
28. Do you know the rent that has been paid? – No.
29. Have you ever heard the Natives complaining in any way about the granting of leases to the Archdeacon? – Yes; I have heard the Maoris asking to be informed as to the amount of rent paid.
30. Have they ever applied to the trustees or to the Archdeacon for particulars? – No; I do not think we did that.
31. Did you ever seek information from the persons who could give it? – No.
P. TE UAMAIRANGI.] 61 G. – 5.
32. Do you know anything about the letting-value of the estate in one block on a lease for a number of years? – No.
33. Has the Archdeacon taken a personal interest in the school? – Yes; I think he takes a great interest in the school.
34. Have the Natives benefited in consequence of what he has done for the school during all these years? – Yes, those who have been educated have been benefited.
35. Mr. Ellison.] You said the land was given for the benefit of the children? – Yes
36. Was it for the children of the Heretaunga – that is, the Hawke’s Bay – district only, or for the benefit of children throughout the whole colony? – I understood it was for the benefit of the children of Hawke’s Bay District only; for instance, for the fourteen children who went to Otaki, and suchlike.
37. Are you aware that they send European children to Te Aute nowadays? – Yes.
38. What have you got to say about that? – When I saw the children of the whole Island going there, and also Europeans, I came to the conclusion that this trust must be for all children throughout the colony.
39. But at the time the land was given what were the conditions mentioned? – It was stated that the land was given for the children of school age in the Hawke’s Bay District, and not for any other purpose.
40. Have the persons in charge of the school asked for payment for the admission of any Hawke’s Bay children to the school: have they sent them the application form asking them if they were prepared to pay? – I have not heard about it. I had a child at Te Aute, and Paraire Tomoana was sent there by his father, and we never filled up any form of admission.
41. The Chairman.] Did you see Sir George Grey and Bishop Selwyn at Te Aute? – No; I do not remember their arrival.
42. You were not present at any conference between Sir George Grey and Bishop Selwyn and Mr. Williams and the Natives about giving the land? – No; I do not remember.
43. Mr. Hogg.] Is your principal objection to the management the fact that the school is open to the whole colony? – Yes; I objected at first, but when I found the school was to be for the children of all the colony I ceased my objection.
44. Do you think the intention of the Maoris in giving the land was to confine the benefit to the children of the district? – Yes, that is what I heard.
45. Do you also object to the very young children being excluded? – I have no objection to the non-admittance of the smaller children. I think they are too small, and perhaps it is better they should not go there.
46. Are there schools to meet the requirements of the younger people? – Yes. In recent times primary schools for children have been started.
47. Do you know if any Maori children are now growing up without receiving an education in some school or another? – Yes, I know of cases of children not attending school.
48. Is that because they cannot get admission, or is it through their own fault? – Perhaps it is because they do not want to go to school. Some go, and some are lazy and do not go.
49. Is there any one going round to compel them to go to school? – Yes, there are officers for that purpose, but they cannot get some of these children to go to school.
50. Are you satisfied with the way in which this trust has been managed, or do you think it could be improved? – I always looked on Mr. Williams as manager of Te Aute, but in recent times I have been informed there are trustees.
51. If the Natives themselves were on the trust, do you think it would be managed to better advantage? – I think it would be a good thing for some Maoris to be put on the trust.
52. Mr. Lee.] Do you know of boys who have been refused admission to Te Aute? – I have heard of applicants who have been told there was no room. They had to wait, but afterwards they were admitted when there was room.
53. Do you know that boys are not admitted to Te Aute now until they have reached the top class – that is, the Sixth Standard – of the Government Native schools? – I do not know. That has all been done in recent times after the establishment of Maori primary schools.
54. Have you any objection to Te Aute being used for the advanced Maori boys only? – I think that is the proper way to do it.
55. Mr. Eliott.] Did any of your children go to Te Aute? – I had one child there and a grandchild.
56. Was that in Mr. Thornton’s time? – Yes. I brought my child home again because he became ill.
57. How long was the child there? – Six or seven years.
58. Were you satisfied with the instruction given to the boy? – Yes.
59. Had you other children who did not go to school? – Taranaki was a child of mine, but he was living with another person, and this person would not let him go to school. My daughters were sent to Hukarere, and I had a granddaughter at Hukarere.
60. Who have done the best for themselves, the boy who went to Te Aute or the boy who did not go? – The one who stayed at home. The boy who went to Te Aute would have done very well. He passed all the standards, but he was sickly and died young.
61. Was any deed or document signed by the Natives when they gave the land to Williams? – No.
62. You also told us there were complaints about the rents the Archdeacon was paying: was that for Native leases or for Te Aute trust land? – Both in regard to Te Aute lands and in regard to other Maori lands he leased, some of which he eventually bought.
63. The Chairman.] What were the complaints? – One objection was this: he leased land and eventually bought the land. The objection they had about Te Aute land was this: that Mr. Williams never explained to them what rent he was paying.
G. – 5. 62
PARAIRE TOMOANA examined.
64. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – I am a farmer at Hastings.
65. How old are you? – I am thirty-one.
66. Were you educated at Te Aute? – Yes.
67. How old were you when you went to Te Aute? – Between nine and ten.
68. How long did you remain there? – Till the end of 1891.
69. What place did you occupy in the school? – I was in the highest standard.
70. After leaving school what work did you take up? – I went home to my people and went in for farming.
71. What sort of farm work? – Agricultural and general.
72. Where did you learn farming? – At home.
73. Did you find that what you learnt at the school was of any use to you after you left? – Yes
74. What did you learn at school? – To read and write were the principal things I learnt at school. I also learnt arithmetic and geography, and a little Latin, algebra, Euclid, chemistry, and physiology.
75. Did you learn carpentering? – Yes.
76. I suppose you saw the farm operations going on around you on the estate? – I took more interest in the farming and agricultural work than I did in my school-work. That was owing to the fact that my people went in greatly for agriculture and crops.
77. Are you in a position to express any opinion as to what sort of education should be given at Te Aute? – Yes, I have my own ideas about what they ought to teach at Te Aute. Before went to Te Aute I saw a good deal of farming and agricultural work; but when I got to Te Aute I was put on to ordinary school-work. There I began to have doubts, and I began to criticize in my mind the knowledge of the Pakehas; and, owing to my liking farm-work better, I used never to miss an opportunity of going on to the station to see the people at work, ploughing and attending to station matters. I went on with my school-work until I finished, and since I left Te Aute I have thought much about what would be the best way to advance the Maori people.
78. Do you belong to the Old Boys’ Association? – Yes; the association was originated by the fellows of my time. The first meeting was in 1889. After I left school and thought what would be best to advance the interests of the Maori people as a whole, I came to the conclusion that the best thing would be to teach them technical education and trades, and so on. From that day to this I have always maintained this, and asked that these things be taught at Te Aute.
79. Do you mean that, in your opinion, book-learning and practical work on farms, such as- carpentering and blacksmithing, and so on, should be carried on together? – Yes, the two should go together.
80. But great attention should be paid, in your opinion, to the industrial side of the institution? Yes.
81. That really sums up what you want to emphasize? – Yes. I may say that at the time I was at school technical education, such as carpentering, was carried on continuously at Te Aute. That was from 1883 to 1887. After that the technical instructor, Mr. Dunne, left the school, and the instruction declined; it was not carried on so energetically. I think there is none at all now. I was very enthusiastic over the technical education in my time at school. There are a good many buildings at Te Aute which the boys built, and forms and stools, and so on, under the instruction of Mr. Dunne.
82. What became of Mr. Dunne? – He left Te Aute and went to Wanganui College in 1887 or 1888.
83. Mr Hogg.] How long were you at Te Aute School? – From 1884 to 1891.
84. During that time you were instructed by English books? – Yes, and also Maori books.
85. Were you allowed to converse in any other than the English language in the school? – In 1884 Maori was allowed to be spoken, but after that it was prohibited. But one day in the week was set aside to practise the children in translating from English to Maori and from Maori to English.
86. What I want to know is, why do you not speak the English language fluently so as not to need the assistance of an interpreter? – Perhaps my head is defective. I may say that only a minority at the school thoroughly master English; the majority do not thoroughly master it.
87. Can you write a fair letter in the English language? – Yes, I think so.
88. Do you correspond with any Pakehas? – Yes.
89. You have no difficulty in writing? – I think it is quite easy to write in English, but the people I write to write back and say I do not express myself properly.
90. Has your education been useful in business and on the farm? – Yes, very much.
91. I suppose it has assisted you in selling produce and in making bargains with Europeans? – Yes.
92. What branches have been generally of assistance to you? – The most useful to me have been arithmetic and the English language.
93. Have you forgotten much of the English language since you left school? – On the contrary, I have learnt more. I have increased my knowledge of English.
94. Then you have not been taught the English language in the school sufficiently to be able to dispense with an interpreter when you wish to express your views? – Of course, the endeavour at the school has been to teach English so as to dispense with an interpreter.
95. Do you not think the boys might be kept longer at school so as to be able to speak for themselves, and have a knowledge of both languages? – Yes, perhaps so.
96. Do you know how your companions in the schools have got on after leaving Te Aute? – One is your fellow Commissioner.
P. TOMOANA.] 63 G. – 5.
97. But, generally speaking, have those you know had an advantage from the education they received? – Yes, they have.
98. The only thing you think might be improved is in regard to the instruction of technical education? – Yes, that is the most important matter to teach the Maoris. It is more important than book-work.
99. Is there any great difficulty in getting into the school that you are aware of? – Yes, there is great difficulty in getting admission. Lots are refused.
100. Do you know why they are refused? – There are too many applicants. They have not room for them all.
101. Mr. Lee.] Have the boys refused passed the Sixth Standard in the ordinary Government Native schools? – They are not all Sixth Standard boys.
102. Do you know of boys who have really passed the Sixth Standard in the Native schools being refused admission into Te Aute? – I cannot mention any boy by name.
103. You are a farmer, and your education, of course, should have fitted you for that occupation do you find, now you have left school, it would have been better for you if you had not learnt Latin but had learnt to express yourself well in English? – I think that learning Latin assists us in learning English.
104. Do you think that on the whole, though the Latin may have helped your English, you could have learnt to express yourself well in English it your instruction had been confined to English and you had not learnt Latin at all? – I think I should not have been able to make the English language clear to myself without the Latin.
105. When you say you are very much in favour of technical education, may I ask you what you understand by technical education: do you mean the teaching of a trade? – Yes.
106. Supposing you had had lectures in a room, and were shown by the teachers soils, and how they were formed, and what should be done to them to make them more fertile, and were shown also plants and parts of plants – the roots and fibres of the roots – and were told the purpose they served and how they required nourishment, and were shown how to use agricultural implements, and were then taken out and given a bit of land on which to put into practice the knowledge you had learnt, would you have considered that a satisfactory education? – Yes; that is the way to bring the Maori and Pakeha together.
107. Is that what you mean by technical instruction? – Yes.
108. Mr. Eliott.] Is a boy’s time fully occupied in the school now with book-learning? – I think so.
109. If you are going to have this industrial education, what classes of the book-learning would you recommend should be knocked out? – Well, Euclid. I never liked Euclid, and I told Mr. Thornton that Euclid was quite useless to Maoris. If you were to get Maori boys who, have been at Te Aute together you would find they know more about geography than Euclid, because geography is a thing they can grasp.
110. Do you think only Euclid need be dispensed with: how many days a week did you have Euclid? – Every day, I think.
111. How many books did you get through? – Two.
112. Is there anything else you could knock out? – No.
113. You are engaged in farming: do you keep accounts? – Yes; I keep them in my own way.
114. Have you a banking account? – No. We do not work the farm in the way the Pakehas work it – on business lines. We work it for the hapu on communistic lines.
115. Were you taught book-keeping at the College? – Not in my time.
116. Mr. Lee.] You said you had read two books of Euclid and had done a certain amount of algebra: how much? – I cannot say now.
117. Did you do equations? – Yes.
118. Did you get on with your arithmetic? – Yes, very well.
119. Did you like it? – Yes, very much.
120. Did you find generally that the boys got on in arithmetic? – I think so.
121. The Chairman.] Is there anything else you would like to say? – I would like to say something about the evidence given by Archdeacon Williams, because I am one of the old boys of the school. I have heard my parents talking about the reasons for which the land at Te Aute was given. What they had to say was not altogether in support of Archdeacon Williams, and we children, hearing them expressing these views, agreed with these views. Their views were that Archdeacon Williams was not managing the school well.
122. What was wrong with it? – Well, I do not know in what way he was managing it badly. I did not hear that. Then, when the Commission was opened here I have seen what Archdeacon Williams said, and, as an old Te Aute boy, I wish to say I think he has made himself quite clear. I approve entirely of what he said, and confirm it. I have also seen Mr. Thornton’s evidence, and I like what he said very much. One thing Mr. Thornton mentioned in regard to games – football. I, as an old Te Aute boy, think they should not devote so much time to football as they do. They make a work of it, and they play for cups and trophies. Well, when we Maoris go in for that sort of thing it absorbs our whole time; we put our whole mind into it. I do not know if it is the same with Europeans. I think that has a great deal to do with the backwardness of some of the Te Aute children in their studies: their minds are taken up too much with football. In regard to the expressions of opinion that it would be better to cut up Te Aute into small farms, I think that the manner in which Archdeacon Williams has managed the place is better than that. Why I say this is because Archdeacon Williams knows that if another person came into Te Aute he would not devote the same time and attention to the school that Mr. Williams does. Of all the Europeans – the old settlers living who know the Maori language and customs – Archdeacon Williams is the most Maori and the most sympathetic with the Maori people. In regard to the
G. – 5. 64 [P. TOMOANA.
expression of opinion put forward by some of the witnesses that more European children should be admitted into the school, if that is agreed to there will be no room for Maori children at Te Aute. I think Te Aute should be left entirely as a Maori school. I think somebody stated before the Commission that the presence of European children was a help to Maori children in their studies at Te Aute. I, as an old boy, say “No, that is not the case.” They are no assistance whatever, and if you ask any of the old boys they will back me up in my statement. If you get hold of some white boys who have gone to Te Aute you will find that they have become more “Maorified” than European. Then, their language has been affected because of the fact that the majority of the children at the school are Maoris. The best way to advance the Maoris after they leave school is to get them openings in towns and apprentice them to trades. One thing I have been considering of late years is in regard to the masters at Te Aute. The Maoris look upon Te Aute as the largest Maori school in New Zealand, and we old boys also view Te Aute in the same way. That being the case, we old boys think that the masters at Te Aute should be of the very highest class, and should not be selected from amongst Te Aute boys, but from amongst masters who have had long experience, and who have got certificates. Another thing I would like to say something about is in regard to the teaching of religion at Te Aute. I may say that none of the school-time is absorbed by that. The services are held at their proper time, and I think, in view of the fact that you are training the children up, that religious instruction is a most important mater. In my opinion, the children at Te Aute at present are lazy and indolent – I mean, comparing the children who are there now with what they were in my time. The children at the present time are not so energetic in some respects as in my time, and they go in too much for fine dressing and personal adornment. That will teach and encourage them when they go back to the kaingas to keep up this dressy fashion, and I think that will be detrimental to them when they return, and also to the people in the kaingas.
123. Do you say they are extravagant in their tastes? – Yes; it has a tendency to make them extravagant. They think of nothing but clothes, and to dress and look well. Perhaps the masters at Te Aute have reason for teaching them to be tidy and clean, and to dress well.
124. You do not object to them being clean, and tidy, I suppose? – No; that is good. I mean there are too many collars, and so on.
125. Has Mr. Thornton a good influence over the boys? – Yes.
126. Do the boys respect him and venerate him? – Yes.
127. Are the Maori people, both young and old, fond of gambling? – In Hawke’s Bay they are.
128. Do they do much of it? – Yes.
129. Too much? – Too much for some.
130. Did the boys at the school bet amongst themselves? – We used to.
131. On horse-racing or on the totalisator? – No
132. Is there much betting on the totalisator amongst the Maoris? – Yes, in Hawke’s Bay.
133. Too much? – Yes.
134. Do they lose their money on it? – I think so.
135. Is there anything else you would like to mention? – I would like to explain that when I said I supported technical education at Te Aute I did not wish it to be understood that I confined my remarks to Te Aute only. I apply them also to Hukarere, and every Maori school.
136. Mr. Lee.] Do you think the best use of Te Aute is to make it a high school for Maoris and for nobody else? – Yes, if you include technical education.
137. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think an agricultural college would be an advantage? – Yes, very much indeed. Perhaps that would induce the Maoris to go back to their own districts and to hold on to their lands, because then they would know how to work them.
138. Would you sooner see an agricultural education given than so much Euclid and some of these higher branches they are taught? – Yes.
139. Mr. Ellison.] Do you not think it would be to the advantage of the boys attending the school that etiquette and manners and the proper way to conduct themselves should be taught them also? – Yes, very good. They are taught now at Te Aute about these things, and how to sit at table, and to conduct themselves at table; but deportment and how to behave were not taught in our day. When travelling I heard people remarking on the steamer that these Te Aute boys were gentlemen by nature. Perhaps they were talking about Mr. Ngata. He was the eldest of us there at that time. There were sixteen of us.
GEORGE PRIEST examined.
140. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to tender yourself as a witness in consequence of what you have seen in the Press about the value of your property? – Yes.
141. You are a farmer on land adjoining the Te Aute property? – Yes. I hold between 200 and 300 acres. I have been there about twelve years.
142. What do you wish to say? – I wish to say that the value put on the Te Aute College land is considerably less than the value put on my land. I am speaking of the values of the Government Valuer. I believe it was Mr. Griffen who valued the land. My section at Maraekakaho, 34 acres, was valued at £424 capital value, and £360 unimproved value, which works out at £12 per acre capital value. Another section of 32 acres is valued at £384 capital value, and £310 unimproved value, which works out at £9 13s. 4d. per acre. My other two sections, comprising 126 acres, are valued at £1,555 capital value, and £1,334 unimproved value. My land is of an average quality with the land about there. Now, while these values have been put on my property, Te Aute has been valued at £3 per acre unimproved value. I consider it unfair that for the same sort of land one place should be valued so high and the other so low.
143. Have you appealed against these values? – Yes; but I could get no redress. The matter came before the Court, and I appeared and Mr. Griffin appeared, and the Court heard evidence, and when the evidence was finished the Court said the case would be considered.
G. PRIEST.] 65 G. – 5.
144. And was no decision ever given? – No. That was four or five years ago, and I have been paying the values put on the land. As the rating-book is made up after the Court sits, I came to the conclusion that the values had been sustained, as no reduction was made. The evidence of Mr. Griffen was that he valued my place as a dairy farm, and the other place as a sheep-run.
145. Do you dairy there? – Yes, I have been dairying for twelve years.
146. Is your land low lying? – Yes, but some of it is high.
147. How many cows do you milk? – About forty. I convert all the milk into butter on the place, and sell it locally.
148. Have you found it successful? – I have made a living out of it. I have not made a fortune.
149. Has it paid you? – Yes; better than sheep would, I think.
150. How many children have you got? – Three.
151. Do you employ any paid labour in milking? – Yes. Sometimes two, and sometimes as high as six in the harvest-time.
152. What capital had you when you started? – Practically nothing.
153. Have you made anything out of it, or just lived? – I suppose I am worth £3,000 now.
154. That is the result of twelve years at dairy-farming? – Yes.
155. Do you consider Te Aute property fit for dairy-farming? – The greater portion of it is.
156. Are you troubled with dry seasons and droughts? – Some time ago we were. We have not had any for four or five years now.
157. Do you know if any others have been as successful as you have been at dairy-farming? – There are no others.
158. Do you think more money could be made out of sheep than dairy-farming? – Yes, now; but not some time ago.
159. Do you think there is a good opening for dairy-farmers around Te Aute? – If the land was cut up. I do not mean to say the Te Aute College land altogether; but if the surrounding lands were cut up I think it would be a good dairying district.
160. We are dealing with the Te Aute trust lands: are they suitable for dairying purposes? – Yes, a portion, and a portion is not. Probably about a third is not suitable for dairying.
161. Is there anything else you wish to say? – Archdeacon Williams referred to my sale. I offered my stock for sale because I wanted to go in for sheep. I was tired of so much hard work at dairying.
162. Do you think sheep-farming pays better than dairying? – There is no doubt, at present prices; and there is not the same amount of expense.
163. Mr. Hogg.] Is this Native land you lease? – Yes.
164. How long is your lease for? – Twenty-one years.
165. Do you get any compensation for improvements at the end of your lease? – No.
166. I see your improvements are valued at £359 altogether? – Yes.
167. You have a good house and everything erected? – Yes.
168. Do you think you could do well enough on a sheep-farm of the size of your leasehold – 192 acres? – No. I have between 200 and 300 acres altogether. I think one could make a living at present prices on from 300 to 400 acres.
169. Supposing the price of wool went down to 6d. or 7d. or 8d.? – Everything depends on the price of wool. I know the last wool I had I sold for 4½ d. per pound on the London market.
170. Have you been over the College lands? – Yes, many a time. I know the character of the country.
171. Into how many reasonable-sized homesteads do you think it could be cut up, both as sheep farms and dairy farms? – I suppose, into eight or ten reasonable farms.
172. Have your cattle suffered at all from these dry westerly winds we have heard so much about? – I never noticed it. The first year I started was the worst we had. That is the only year I felt the pinch.
173. But, generally speaking, the climate is right enough for dairying purposes? – I find it right enough.
174. Do you consider the Te Aute College lands are very much undervalued as compared with your own? – There is no doubt about that. Three or four years ago, when I objected, Te Aute College land was valued at £3 12s. unimproved value, and I was valued at £8.
175. What was the value of Te Aute College land in 1903? – I think the present value shows the first increase,
176. What would you value the Te Aute trust estate at all round if you were going to buy it? – I think it would be a fair thing to give from £7 to £8 for it.
177. What would be a fair rental for twelve years, without the improvements? – I took up my leases without improvements, and I am paying 7s. per acre for one, and 10s. for another, and 12s. for the others. That is not exactly according to the quality of the land; but I took up the lease at 7s. per acre some time before I took up the others.
178. Mr. Eliott.] What is the proportion of flat land to hills? – I suppose about 25 per cent is flat.
179. Is your holding equal to the general run of holdings at Hatuma? – Oh, yes; it is better quality.
180. Mr. Lee.] Do you think the high price you are paying is due to the fact that your land is in small sections? – I have no doubt there is a good deal in that.
181. Do you not also think that your land is evidently assessed as dairying land as against sheep land? – I cannot say; it may be, but I do not think it would be fair. I think the land should only be valued for what it is worth.
9 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 66 [G. PRIEST.
182. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think Te Aute would fetch a much higher rental if out up into reasonable-sized farms? – I have no doubt it would fetch more rent, but I do not think it would be a benefit to the College.
183. Mr. Elliott.] Do you know what rent the Archdeacon is paying? – Only by what I see in in the papers – 6s. 3d. per acre.
184. You know also that in addition to the rent he contributes in milk and cheap meat equal to £150 a year? – Oh, yes. £150 would not cover it.
185. You think it is more than that? – I think so. I do not think it would be for the benefit of the College if the estate was taken out of the Archdeacon’s hands.
186. Would it not be to the advantage of the College if it produced more rent? – Yes; but if it did produce more rent the trustees would have to go to considerable more expense in paying to have the place managed.
187. Would the farmers not manage it themselves? – I mean, for instance, the Archdeacon renders a lot of assistance to the school and teacher that the trustees would have to pay for if the Archdeacon was not there to do it.
188. They would have to replace the Archdeacon’s services in connection with the school? – Yes, by some competent person.
189. Then the Archdeacon has devoted a lot of attention and service to the College? – Yes. In fact, in the district he has always been looked upon as the owner of it. I was seven years in the Archdeacon’s employ, and I know the assistance he has always rendered to the school.
190. The Chairman.] You know how the property has been farmed? – Yes.
191. Was any money spared in making a good property of it? – No; it has always been farmed to the best advantage.
192. It has always been kept in good heart? – Yes. Of course a lot of it is cleared bush land, and that sort of land at Te Aute always keeps in good heart.
193. Mr. Hogg.] While you were there did you notice if the trustees took any active interest in the College? – No. In fact, I never noticed the trustees there, with the exception of Mr. J. N. Williams. He was often there, but whether on business in connection with the College I do not know.
JAMES NELSON WILLIAMS examined.
194. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Williams? – I am a sheep-farmer, Hawke’s Bay.
195. You are one of the trustees of the Te Aute Estate, appointed by the General Synod? – Yes
196. How long have you been a trustee? – I think since about 1884.
197. You were a trustee at the time of the lease in 1892? – Yes.
198. And you were a party to that lease? – Yes.
199. You know about the 1903 lease? – Yes.
200. Did you take any part whatever in the negotiations? – No. I was present when it first came up for discussion, and I at once said I would have nothing to do with it, as Archdeacon Williams was a relative of mine, and I took no further part in the negotiations.
201. You know the terms of the lease? – Yes.
202. Looking at the whole of the circumstances, in your opinion, is it a fair lease and in the interests of the trust? – I think the rent given is very ample indeed. I thought so at the time.
203. You say that the lease is one that is beneficial to the trust? – I do.
204. And having regard to all the circumstances and the history of the trust, and Archdeacon Williams’s connection with the trust, you think the trustees acted wisely? – I think the trustees, having had a good tenant in the past, would not have acted wisely if they had thrown him over lightly in making a new lease. I would not do that if I were transacting my own private business.
205. Of course, you were a party to this lease, but it was signed by your attorney? – Yes; I was absent at the time.
206. You know about the exchange? – Yes.
207. You sanctioned that as one of the trustees? – Yes.
208. Do you consider that a proper exchange? – I consider that was an exchange for the benefit of the trust. The land the trust got is more valuable than the land given for it.
209. I think most of the witnesses say that in the exchange the trust got the best of the bargain: do you agree? – Without doubt.
210. Do you know the reason for the exchange? – I think there were two reasons. It was to the Archdeacon’s advantage, as owning the adjoining land, to get that piece; but he gave up land of considerably better value as land. The land he gave up was extremely valuable, I consider, to the trust.
211. Speaking generally, you say it was to the advantage of the trust to make that exchange? – Yes.
212. Mr. Lee.] Do you know anything of a flock of sheep that was on this station at one time? – That was many years ago.
213. Yes? – I have a dim recollection of it.
214. You do not know its history? – No.
215. How many times have you been over the property? – Years ago I was over it frequently, I lived myself at the back of it some distance – up along the mountains – and I used to cross one part of the property to get to where I lived.
217. Have you taken an interest in the school? – I have not taken any personal interest in the manner in which the education is carried on.
218. Do you happen to know whether the children in it have been healthy or has there been sickness? – I believe there has been sickness; but I should say where you get a number of Maoris together the sickness in the case of the College students was less than if they had been in their own kaingas.
J. N. WILLIAMS.] 67 G. – 5.
219. Mr. Eliott.] Do you think it would be any advantage to the trust to subdivide the land and let it in smaller holdings? – Not under the conditions we were in at the time.
220. But the land is suitable for subdivision? – Yes, it could be subdivided certainly. There is a good deal of it that could not be subdivided into very small areas. A large part of it is fairly poor land. A man would want a fair area to make a living from it. There are other parts, again, that are very good. Just immediately around the College is extremely good land; and along the back part of the piece which was, I think, grantde [granted] by the Government, is good land. The block opposite, granted by the Maoris, is good land; but there is very little of it that is ploughable, and, not being ploughable, it could not be held in very small holdings with advantage.
221. Do you know anything about the new house that is going up? – Has there been any arrangement with the trustees? – No; the person who is building the new house is taking a risk is to what arrangement he may be able to make with the trustees.
222. That is matter between the tenant and trustees to be arranged hereafter? – He is taking the entire risk. Mr. Warren is entirely in the hands of the trustees, as far as that goes. He is building on a ten years’ lease, and I should think it is a foolish proceeding to build on a ten years’ lease without any arrangement with the trustees.
223. I understood from one of the trustees that there is likely to be another exchange? – That is quite new to me.
224. The Chairman.] The school was established away back in the “fifties,” under Bishop Selwyn, and after that trustees were appointed, and they gave the Archdeacon power – I think, in 1863 – to act generally for them in the whole matte? – Yes.
225. He has had the whole management and control of the school from its inception, and the trustees have never interfered? – I think the trustees very properly decided that the management could not be in very much better hands.
226. It was the intention of the grantors that the Archdeacon should have the management of the school? – Yes
227. The trustees have never interfered? – They have never interfered.
228. That accounts for the present trustees not interfering: they left everything to him, and are satisfied that he is doing his best? – Yes, we have entire confidence in him.
229. As regards the letting of the estate, the trustees have acted in that only? – Yes.
230. The same in regard to Hukarere? – Yes.
231. Whatever annual grant is made from Te Aute to Hukarere, the trustees knew of and sanctioned it? – Yes.
232. Mr. Ellison.] According to one of the grants, the area given by the Natives on the upper side of the road was 1,408 acres? – Yes.
233. There was an exchange between the trustees and the Government of 780 acres? – Yes.
234. The Government gave 350 acres? – Yes.
235. The Natives are of the same opinion as the Archdeacon, that all the Government granted was limited to 4,000 acres? – Yes
236. The Chairman.] Have you ever heard any complaints about the carrying-on of the school? – No.
237. Have you, as a trustee, ever received any complaints? – I have never received one, nor am I aware of any complaints having been made to the trustees.
238. Have you heard of any agitation for cutting up the estate? – No.
239. As far as education is concerned, are you, as one of the trustees, prepared to confer with the Education Department with regard more particularly to the introduction of manual and technical education? – Certainly.
240. You are quite willing to fall in with any improvements in the system of education that the authorities may suggest? – Yes, if it is generally for the benefit of the school, I, as a trustee, would certainly be prepared to fall in with it.
241. Have you any opinion to offer as to whether the school could be improved, more particularly for the Natives? – I think it would work better as a school purely for Natives. Practically it has been so in the past.
242. The accounts in connection with the estate have been rendered regularly to the Diocesan Synod and the General Synod, and have been audited? – Yes.
243. Have you reason to think that all the accounts are accurate? – Yes.
244. That all moneys received have been properly accounted for, and the expenditure properly vouched and authorised? – Yes
245. That matter has always been left entirely to the Archdeacon and Mr. Thornton? – Yes; we have seen that all the accounts were audited.
246. Do you see any objection to the Natives being represented on the trust? – Not the slightest.
247. Do you think it would be an advantage to have a Native on the trust? – Yes, if he gave satisfaction to the Natives generally. There are so many Natives now who are quite competent to take an intelligent interest in what is going on, I think it would be quite right. There is power to add to the number of the trustees. I would like to state to the Commission a matter I am cognisant of. As I told you, I was living at Te Aute for ten or twelve months when I first came to the district. At that time there was very considerable jealousy between the Natives here about selling land to the Government, and there was a dispute going on about selling a piece of land lying from Ruahine to Marakako [Maraekakaho]. I came down to Napier and met George Cooper, who was then Land Purchase Commissioner, and he said, “I have settled with Hapuku for that block of land; I have paid something, and I am going to pay something more,” or words to that effect. I went back to Te Aute the same day, and told Archdeacon Williams what he had stated, and the Archdeacon was in a great state of mind about the information I had given him. He was very angry. He said there
G. – 5. 68 [J. N. WILLIAMS.
would be a row; and a row there was sure enough, because the Natives began to fight each other over the sale of that land. They built pas at Pakowhai and Wakatu [Whakatu]. There was some considerable amount of fighting, and some people were killed. Finally Hapuku retired to Te Hauke, and the matter was eventually compromised. Sir Donald McLean paid the Natives over again for the same piece of land, and that settled the matter. I wish to compliment Sir George Grey on his foresight in getting the Archdeacon to live in Hawke’s Bay, and I know from my own knowledge through living on the spot that if it had not been for the Archdeacon’s presence there fighting would have been with the Europeans, instead of Maori against Maori. It was an exact counterpart of what took place afterwards at Taranaki, where the fighting was with the Europeans. I just want to refer to that because I knew what influence the Archdeacon had over the Natives in the district, and how he kept them friendly with the Europeans when they otherwise would have been violent Hauhaus a. very few years later on.
248. Mr. Hogg.] How often do the trustees meet? – We are called together whenever there is business to do.
249. Do you receive any report regarding the College? – No.
250. You do not discuss the management of the College? – I quite admit we have done what would have been entirely inadmissible if it had not been for the peculiar circumstances in this case: the powers delegated to the Rev. Mr. Williams in 1863. We have never disturbed that.
DANIEL ELLISON, Jun., examined.
Mr. Ellison: I wish to make a few remarks on behalf of the Natives whom I represent. I will deal first with this gift. There is the intention of the gift. I think you are all clear on that point – that is, it was solely intended for the Native children; and also that it was given so that the Native boys should be taught in all the different branches of education – general knowledge and industries. The first part of it has been given effect to – that is, in regard to higher education; but the other part has not been attended to – the manual and technical branches. It is the earnest desire of the Natives whom I represent that manual and technical education should be introduced into the College. There is another question which affects the donors of the land: According to the forms of application, half-castes and others are expected to pay before they are admitted into the College. The Natives are somewhat anxious about that, because they say that later on, as half-castes become more numerous they will still be expected to pay, and yet the forefathers of those children gave the land. They want to make it so that their children should not have to pay. We wish that the descendants of the donors should be admitted free to the school.
251. The Chairman (to Mr. Ellison).] You do not object to wealthy Natives paying if they choose? – No.
252. You do not suggest that any Native has been refused admission to the College because he has not been able to pay? – No.
253. With respect to the subdivision of the estate, do you wish to say anything about that? – I do not think it would be advisable to cut the estate up into smaller areas – at all events while Archdeacon Williams’s influence is there, because his influence means a great deal.
254. Mr. Hogg.] Do you know whether any applications have been made on behalf of Maori children to be admitted to the College and they have been unsuccessful? – I have heard it said, but I could not point to any case. They may be refused one year and admitted the following year. Sometimes boys get tired of waiting and go back to their homes.
255. Do you approve of the question appearing on the application form as to whether the applicant is prepared to pay school fees – £25 a year? – I do not see any reason why it should be struck out, because it is voluntary.
255A. In the case of a vacancy, do you think the paying boy would be admitted, whereas the non-paying boy would be unable to gain admission? – I should think, unless it was the case of a local boy who was unable to pay, that preference should be given to the one able to pay.
256. But you would prefer to have it absolutely free? – Yes, with regard to the local boys.
257. Mr. Lee.] If there were more applications than could be granted, and if the scope of the College were enlarged, do you not think it would be a fair thing to charge for the board and give the education free? – I would not mind if outsiders were charged. I would not like to see it put on to the local boys, because their ancestors gave the land.
258. Mr. Elliott.] What do you mean by the local boys? – Say from Petane up to Tahoraiti – Dannevirke. The people who gave the land lived from Petane up to Ahuriri.
259. The Chairman.] If the Native people of other districts were to endow this College with land or grants, you would be in favour of admitting their children on the same terms? – Yes.
MONDAY, THE 28TH MAY, 1906.
HUGH CAMPBELL examined.
1. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a sheep-farmer, at Poukawa.
2. How long have you been in the district? – Thirty-eight years.
3. I understand you tender yourself as a witness, as you desire to make a statement to the Commission? – Yes, just in regard to the value of the Te Aute land.
4. You know the Te Aute trust estate? – Fairly well. I have not seen much of it of late years; but I have been over it at different times. I think the rent mentioned during the Commission -viz., £2,200 a year – is a fair rent. It may be a little under the mark, the way things are at present; but considering the way they were at the time the lease was granted, I think the rent was a very fair one at that time.
H. CAMPBELL.] 69 G. – 5.
5. Have you been asked by the trustees or by the Archdeacon or by any one connected with the Trust to give evidence? – No; I have come in response to the general invitation advertised in the Newspapers. I would have come down last week but that I was out of sorts. I have not spoken to the Archdeacon or to the trustees on the subject. I cannot speak in regard to the educational side of the institution; but I would like to say the conduct of the boys on the trains when I have been travelling to and fro has been remarkably good, and compares very favourably with that of other young lads travelling in the trains.
6. Have you ever considered the question of cutting up the estate, and whether it would cut up into small farms? – I have not. There are two different classes of land in the estate. The land between the College and the hills is very good, but as you get further towards Kaikora it is decidedly poor. I think if the estate was cut up it would require to be in good-sized allotments.
7. Is it suitable for dairying purposes? – I suppose as suitable as the other land around here; but I have a rather poor opinion of dairying. It has not been a success in this district at all.
8. Do you know of people who have tried it? – I have been a shareholder in the Heretaunga Dairy Factory for the last ten years, and I have not seen a sixpence in dividends. The suppliers have been doing well enough, but not the shareholders. I can only speak personally from a sheep farming and a stock-carrying point of view. I am not sufficiently acquainted with the dairying Industry to give an opinion.
9. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think, at the time the land was leased to the Archdeacon, if it had been offered by public auction or by public tender it would have fetched any higher value than was got for it? – I do not think so – not from a reliable tenant.
10. Assuming it was cut up into 500- or 600-acre farms, and was offered for, say, twenty-one years, with compensation for improvements, do you think it would fetch a much higher rental? – No doubt there is a portion at the back of the house, between the College and the hills, that is very good; but the land towards Kaikora in dry seasons is very poor.
11. Is the property pretty well watered? – Yes.
12. The Chairman.] Do you know what it would cost to cut up the estate and road it, and prepare it for closer settlement? – No.
13. Mr. Elliott.] Have you employed any of the Te Aute boys? – Yes, I have had several.
14. Do they compare favourably as farm and station hands with Europeans? – Yes. Maoris, as a rule, are very good station hands. In that class of work and as agricultural labourers they are quite equal to the average European farmer. In fact, so far as working reapers-and binders and other farm machinery is concerned, they are a long way superior. They seem to have a natural aptitude for this class of work. Of course I am not speaking of the Te Aute boys in particular, but of Maoris in general.
PARATENE NGATA examined.
15. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – At Waiomatatini, Waiapu.
16. What is your occupation? – I am an Assessor of the Native Land Court. My young men and children carry on farming operations. I am fifty-seven years of age.
17. Do you know the Hawke’s Bay District? – Yes, I am acquainted with it. I have lived in the district for two and three years at odd times. I first became acquainted with this district in the year 1869. I was then a militiaman, at the time of the war.
18. Do you know the Te Aute trust estate and school? – My first acquaintance with Te Aute was by hearsay, but afterwards I saw the place in 1883, when I went there to take my children to school.
19. How many sons did you take there? – Two. I also had some nephews there. Altogether there were fourteen of my own immediate connections at Te Aute at that time. I was their guardian and parent, as it were. I stayed at Te Aute for perhaps a couple of weeks, taking stock of the place, and seeing how they managed things at the school. I remember, in talking with the master at the time, pitying myself for having been born so soon. I said I would like to have been born in these later days, so as to have had the advantage of the school.
20. Have you any suggestions to offer in regard to the school? – I saw that at that time the school was well conducted. The first thing I noticed was that they taught the children to love and respect one another, and not to quarrel and fight. Then I noticed that they graded the children according to their ages, and that they were particular in looking after the interests of the younger children. I may say that during this time I was attending the school during school hours, looking on at the work. I was one of those who encouraged and supported the school from the Maori standpoint.
21. Will you tell us something about the influence of Te Aute boys on the Maoris? – The elder boys, after leaving school and returning to their hapus, would be admitted to take part in the meetings held by the elder people, and to take part in the management of the affairs of the hapu. The Te Aute students could thoroughly explain matters to their elders from the European standpoint. The old people would listen to what they had to say, and would then have their suggestions carried out. One thing these Te Aute old boys were very energetic about was to suppress the consumption of spirituous liquors, and to try and put an end to tangis and other Maori customs detrimental to the welfare of the race. They used to travel from village to village and from district to district to carry on this work, and out of that grew the annual conferences of the Te Aute old boys and the formation of what is known as the Te Aute Old Boys’ Association. The movement has spread all over the Island, and all the leading chiefs of the Island have become members of that society. I am a member of it. It was that movement which inspired the Maori Councils Act of 1900. That is some of the fruit due to the efforts of the students from Te Aute College. Then in my district it is the Te Aute students who manage and carry on the farm and station operations. They are not working for themselves only, but for the whole of the hapu. These are what I consider the fruits
G. – 5 . 70 [P. NGATA.
of the Te Aute teaching. On one occasion we, the chiefs of the Ngatiporou, met the chiefs; of the Ngatikahungunu, and we thanked them and congratulated them on their forethought in having; given Te Aute as a place at which to educate our children. We, the people of the Ngatiporou, Who- lived in another district, had received great benefits through our children from the institution at Te Aute. I think if the scope of the school was widened, and if technical and industrial education were introduced into the school, it would very much enhance the value of the institution to the Maori people. That is all I have to say about the matter.
22. Mr. Ngata.] Have you heard it said the Maoris grumble that when they send their children to Te Aute the result is they become too Europanised [Europeanised] and take less interest, or no interest at all perhaps, in farming operations in their own district? – I have never heard that. Perhaps in some parts they may say that. But what I do know is this: that some children who return to their kaingas from Te Aute do not get some occupation for which they are fitted, owing to their hapus and parents not being in a position to provide for them. These boys drift back into towns and- offices but those who went back to their hapus and found congenial occupation have stuck to it, and got on.
23. How many children from the East Coast do you think have been admitted to Te Aute? – I should think about 200; but you will find the records at Te Aute. Perhaps there may be more.
24. Who manage all the important undertakings now being carried on by the Maoris on the East Coast? – The important and large undertakings in connection with the land are managed by the old Te Aute boys, who are all children of chiefs, and well born. They are the ones who know how to manage and conduct the business of the hapus. I may say that when the Government were putting up telegraph and telephone wires in Poverty Bay they neglected our district, and left a gap between Waiapu and Opotiki without any telegraphic communication at all. Now, owing to the efforts of these Te Aute students, they are making a line to connect these two places. I consider that a good indication of the progress going on in the district owing to the influence of the Te Aute boys.
25. Have you heard the expression of opinion of the tribes and hapus on the East Coast in regard to technical and industrial education? – Yes. My people wish an industrial school to be established at Te Aute. I may say that some time ago they set apart a piece of land in our district – about 25 acres of nice, level, good land as a site on which to erect a technical and industrial school, and they sent an application to the Government for a school to be placed there for that purpose. However, the Government passed over that site, and placed the school at Rangitukia. That school is now being carried on, and technical education, such as carpentering, sewing, and other handicrafts, is being taught.
26. Have you heard the people in your district asking that an agricultural college should be established? – Yes, either at Waiapu, Waerenga-a-hika, or at Te Aute, to teach agriculture, poultry- farming, dairy-farming, pig-raising, horticulture, and all classes of farm-work.
27. Is that a new application of recent years? – Yes. It is the outcome of the new ideas arising from the education of the people.
28. It is quite true, is it not, that in former times the parents looked to office-work and clerking as an occupation for their children? – Yes, that is what they thought. At that time they thought these were the most important matters, and that boys who took to clerking as an occupation made a great deal of money.
29. Which is the occupation which Maori parents most desire for their children now? – Farming and the various handicrafts. Most of the young men in my district have gone upon the land or taken up some trade. They have left the offices. Why I am led to state all this to you is that I am constantly addressing the people on these lines as I go from place to place. So this is no new thing to me. My wish is to see the Maori people rise. It was owing to my energy that I was able to place not only my own son, but other boys, in the way of being educated. All my children at home are engaged in farm-work, and I look after them and see that they stick to their work.
30. The Chairman.] Have the Maoris any objection to find with the religious training at Te Aute College? – I can speak for my own district. They have no objection to religious instruction at Te Aute. It must be remembered that the College at Te Aute is a Church of England College, and all the Natives in my district belong to the Church of England. I have heard that some sections of the Maoris from the West Coast have objected to this religious training – that is to say, the objection emanates from the Roman Catholic portion of the Maoris on that coast. I am inclined to say that the Maoris of another church who send their children to Te Aute have perhaps a right to object.
31. Have you considered the question of sports and games at the school? – I am one of those 5 who strongly object to football; and I have spoken on the subject at Te Aute, condemning it, because I think such a large number of children are maimed and hurt at it. I have no objection to the other sports. I would not allow my children to play football at the school.
32. Mr. Lee.] Have you a Government Native school near your place? – Yes.
33. Do the best boys from this school go to Te Aute? – Yes, the best boys are sent to Te Aute and the best of the girls to Hukarere.
34. Do you think it would be well to keep Te Aute and Hukarere as schools to which to send the best of these boys and girls? – Yes.
35. When the boys come back to their kaingas from Te Aute what occupations do they generally follow? – Farming and the various handicrafts.
36. Can you tell me what technical education is best fitted for that kind of life? – Well, carpentering, saddle-making, tailoring, blacksmithing, and shoe-making.
37. I suppose they mostly take up farming? – Yes, in addition to these.
38. Mr. Hogg.] Is there plenty of land for the young Natives if they are taught agriculture generally? – Yes; we are keeping the balance of the land now in anticipation of this. We have lots of land.
P. NGATA.] 71 G. – 5.
39. Y ou say some drift into the towns after being well educated: is that because they cannot get land? – No; it is because their parents have not put them in the way of occupations. Again, some of the lands are awarded to a great number of people under the Native-land laws, and that proves a hamper to the young men.
40. Are the Natives working their farms individually or on communistic lines? – Some of the lands are subdivided and some they work on communistic lines.
41. Would they prefer to have an agricultural school under Maori control or European control? – Let Europeans control it. We want thoroughly trained men for that kind of work.
REWETI KOHERE examined.
42. The Chairman.] Where do you live? – I work at Gisborne, but my home is at Waiapu.
43. What is your occupation? – Assistant teacher in the Native Theological College, Te Rau, Gisborne. I have been there for six years.
44. Were you educated at Te Aute? – Yes. I went there in the year 1889. I was a student at Te Aute for about five years, and I was a teacher there for about two years. Then I went to Canterbury University College, and was there for three years. I passed the first section of the B.A. degree. Then I took up theological studies to fit me for my present position. I may take up the rest of the B.A. degree later on.
45. Have you anything to say with reference to the Te Aute College? – I am in a somewhat awkward position in criticizing my old school, but I do so hoping that something may be done for the benefit of the College. We know that nothing is perfect in this world – everything can be improved. I have read the evidence given before the Commission with respect to the leasing of the land. Of course I cannot say very much on that score, not being a farmer and not having studied land-values. But I say this: that, though the trust might have a larger rental, it would be decidedly disastrous to the school if the Archdeacon and his associations were removed from the College. Archdeacon Williams’s friendship has been an inspiration to a great many of the College boys who are now taking a good part in the battle of life. I think every one is agreed that there should be a purely Maori secondary school; and Te Aute is that school, and the only one. I believe that it should never be done away with – a secondary school where the best Maori intellects could be developed, improved, and directed. Te Aute, I think, stands as a very remarkable monument of the strides made by a savage race in the intellectual world. Had it not been for Te Aute that progress would have been lost probably. I have thought out this question long before now, and I have expressed my Opinion sin the Maori journal of which I am the editor. I have had talks with the Te Aute authorities, and have read papers on the question at meetings of the Te Aute Students’ Association. I believe that the most promising boys should receive secondary education at Te Aute; they should be helped as much as possible and sent to the University. This has been done to some extent. But I believe that the bulk of the boys who go to Te Aute should not be carried on to secondary education. I believe that the largest number of students Te Aute can accommodate in a year is about seventy-five, and of that number I think that perhaps five are fitted for secondary education. The rest should be taught in other directions after they have reached a certain standard in general education. It seems to me at present that the bulk of the boys who go to Te Aute are sacrificed for the sake of the few who can go on to the University. When a boy is not high intellectually, if he is pushed on to the highest standard at Te Aute his mind may become spent or stale, and that would unfit him either for intellectual work or even for manual work; manual work may become distasteful to him after he has Been subjected to that sort of strain. I believe it would be very beneficial to the school if another department were added to the scholastic side. The authorities at Te Aute object to any addition of the kind at the College. They do not fall in with the idea. They say it should be done in a separate institution, not at Te Aute. My own opinion is that Te Aute is the place for it, because they have everything necessary to help it on. There has been much talk about technical education; but technical education, as I understand it, would not be quite the thing for Te Aute. I am the only one who has expressed that opinion. The best addition, I think, for Te Aute would not be a technical school, but would be an industrial branch – agricultural and pastoral teaching. I say that because I think that the Maori should be a farmer above all other things, for the reason that he has the land, and his natural bringing – up and inclinations ought to fit him for that sort of life. We have had Maori boys in trades and in offices. As far as I can find out, they have not been a great success there; and some of those who have worked long in offices have shown a tendency to develop consumption. That stands to reason, because the Maoris have been used to outdoor life from their forefathers down. I believe that the salvation of the Maori race depends on their working their own land. That is the reason why I have been anxious and trembling lest the Pakeha influence is so strong that it would deprive the Maoris of their land, or a certain amount of it, and thus prevent them using it now and in generations to come. If anything will kill the Maori race it will be the loss of their land. That is one reason why I say that an industrial department should be added to Te Aute. I believe the Maori is a born farmer. The life suits him. At Te Aute we have the land and. we have the instructors. The pupils are there, but they are not in their places. I think, instead of employing Europeans on the station, with some little rearrangement some of the students could be put on the station and taught high-class farming instead of being pushed on to the highest classes. They might be taught up-to-date poultry-farming, too. That could be done easily at the school itself, also fruit – farming. I do not see why the school should not have its own orchard carried on on up-to – date methods, also kitchen-gardening. When I was at Te Aute we used to have our own vegetable-gardens and strawberry-beds. We used to take a great deal of pride in keeping our strawberry-beds, and we used to send some of the fruit to friends. There was a competition amongst the students as to who should keep the best strawberry bed. That has been done away with, to the great loss of the boys. Instead of employing the students, they now have a European gardener. It is said that technical education has been taught at Te Aute. The best result of
G. – 5. 72 [R. KOHERE.
that is what I believe we call the workshop at Te Aute. Since I left Te Aute that workshop has been turned into a dormitory, so that there is now no technical education being taught there. The technical education that was said to have been taught then is not what I understand technical education to be. I have been attending a wood class in a technical school, and what I learn in a proper technical school is a very different thing from what I learned at Te Aute. I am somewhat emphatic in saying that the boys at Te Aute should be graded. In special cases the students should receive secondary education. The bulk of the boys should be drafted on to branches that they are fitted for. In a sense Te Aute has been a disappointment to the Maori people who have sent boys there, a disappointment in this way, that when the parents sent their boys to Te Aute they expected their sons, to be lawyers, doctors, judges, engineers, and professional men. I think they wanted their boys to be specially lawyers. Time has proved that going to Te Aute does not necessarily make a boy, a lawyer or a doctor. I think my own people, the Ngatiporou, have learned a lesson, not from an example they have, but they have learned that the best thing to put boys to is farming. The best lawyer they have had threw up the profession practically, and that opened their eyes and made them change their minds probably. The turning of the Maori race into farmers would be, as I have said, the saving of the people, and it would materially add to the prosperity of “God’s own country.” I think that every facility should be given to Maori boys to make them good farmers. Another reason why an industrial department should be added to the College is that, even if they had a separate industrial school or college elsewhere, Te Aute, having made a reputation, would always draw boys; they would always go there. It would only take them a year or two at Te Aute to find out that they were not fitted for secondary education. To learn to be carpenters, blacksmiths, and saddlers would be a useful thing for the young Maoris; but I do not think it is very necessary, because one can always get a lot of these tradesmen. Of course it is useful knowledge. I am learning carpentering, not because I intend to go into the trade, but it is useful, and it is a pleasant pastime. The matriculation standard must certainly tend to unfit a boy for ordinary trade work, or it will make such work distasteful to him; and it may make him become lazy. Two of my brothers when they left Te Aute were decidedly lazy; they did not like to work at all. It may, perhaps, have been constitutional, or it may have been helped on by Te Aute – this lazy propensity – but since they have been at home they have all been working on the land, and they have become good workers; the fit of laziness has practically gone. So I have come to the conclusion that it was through going to Te Aute that they become lazy. People have at times severely criticized secondary education at Te Aute, and they have come to the conclusion that so many boys have turned out failures simply because of receiving secondary education at Te Aute. I used to share that opinion fairly strongly. I believe that secondary education is responsible to a certain extent, though not so much as some people would make it out to be. I have seen that boys from other schools – for instance, St. Stephen’s Industrial School – have turned out to be failures, and it was not through secondary education. Even boys from the village schools have turned out to be failures, and boys who were at Te Aute only for a year or two, who did not reach the higher classes, have turned out to be failures. So I have come to the conclusion that it is rather the social conditions in the settlements or the influences of the towns that have helped to make these boys failures. They got into extravagant habits in the towns. With respect to gambling, that goes right through the race, and I am inclined to think that the old people are the worst gamblers. As far as I know, Te Aute boys are not leaders in that respect. Some of them gamble, but not to an extent that I have seen some old people gamble. No doubt it may be said that the greatest successes turned out at Te Aute are the boys who were leaders at school scholastically – the best-educated boys. In every case where a Maori boy has been to the University I must say he has been a success, and you generally find past Te Aute boys leading any great movement amongst the Maoris socially or industrially. You will usually find in such cases a Te Aute boy who has received a very good education there or at some outside college. I think that Te Aute is equal to the best secondary European school – as far as the materials go – with respect to learning, discipline, conduct, and tone. Many boys have learned there to be systematic, neat, clean, and punctual. Lately, however, I have noticed the boys who go to Te Aute, both at present and for a few years back, rather given to extravagant dressing. I am not the only one who has expressed that opinion. When I was at school at Te Aute a boy who had a tailor-made suit would be looked upon as a sort of curiosity, and I am inclined to think that a boy who wears a ready-made suit on Sundays at present may be looked upon as a curiosity. I cannot say that the authorities are to blame for this spirit of extravagance at the school, though they may be blamed indirectly. Te Aute is becoming too expensive for a boy of average means to go to. In our time it was considered quite sufficient for a parent to devote £10 a year to clothing a boy at school; and that £10 would pay his passage to school and back home again. But now I think it costs a boy about £30, more or less. Another thing I find fault with at Te Aute is charging a boy for his school-books. In my time all school material was free; but they have changed that. I think the reason is to punish the boys or to make them look after their books better, because if they had books provided for them they would not look after them so well. That may sound all right; but when you look at it more closely you find that it is an injustice to the parents of the boy. I think the school should provide the books, because the masters of the school are there to look after the books. If the parents are to buy the books they are not at the school to look after the books. So, instead of punishing the boys, it is the parents who are punished. As we all know, boys, as a rule, are not very particular about the care of school-books. Not only that, but when a boy passes from one standard to another the old books are practically of no use to him, and probably he throws them away, or gives them away to his friends, whereas if the school provided the books they could keep the books and subsequently utilise them for other students. It has been said that Te Aute is only a training-ground for parsons – that it only teaches boys how to go to heaven. I am in a position to express an opinion on that question, because I am a tutor in the Theological College at Gisborne. As far as I know, there are about half a dozen Te Aute boys who are ordained clergymen
R. KOHERE.] 73 G. – 5.
out of the total of, say, five hundred boys. That is a very small percentage when you take into consideration that one of the objects of the school is to give religious instruction. So that if any complaint is to be made on that side, it may be made by the other side that there are not enough of them. At present there are five Te Aute boys in training for the Church, including myself. Reference has been made to the inclusion of pakeha boys in the College. In making a comment on that point I should be guarded in my remarks, because some of my best friends are European boys who have been at Te Aute, but I say this, that some European boys who have been at Te Aute have been of no benefit to the College. Their influence was for the worse rather than for the better. I have one or two boys in my mind – European boys – who did not behave properly, and they taught the Maori boys phrases that they were not used to, although I believe one of these boys was dismissed from the school. Sons of some of our best citizens and settlers would not be sent to Te Aute; they would be sent to Wanganui or some other college.
46. Do you think it is the desire of the Native people that Te Aute should be kept exclusively for the Maori race? – I think decidedly it should. I think the Natives would rather have all their boys in the College by themselves. I know that a great many Maori boys have not been able to go to Te Aute when they wanted to go, on account of the want of room. I know that some applications have had to be put off for a year or two, and that some boys got tired of waiting. Te Aute is the only school of that class that the Native people have, and it seems a pity that European children should be sent to it when they have many schools open to them.
47. You know there are two sets of Crown grants: that the trusts are different? – Yes.
48. Do you think it should all be put into one trust, and that the education should be for the benefit of the Maori people? – Yes.
49. That it should be limited to Native boys? – Yes.
50. On the ground that it is the only secondary Maori school in the colony? – Yes
51. And that we have our European colleges and universities in different parts of the colony? – Yes.
52. I suppose you know the reason why Europeans have been admitted: that some of them have been for both races? – Yes. There is another thing: I feel satisfied that the Maori language should be taught at Te Aute. Mr. Thornton has been reported to have expressed the opinion that it would be useless, because it would be a dead language in a few years. I am of opinion it should be done, and that the Maori language be taught in all Maori schools. I think if a boy taught to despise his own mother-tongue we should not be surprised if he comes to despise his mother.
53. Mr. Ngata.] Would you go so far as to say they are taught to despise it at Te Aute? – I would not put it in such strong terms; but that is practically the consequence of the position of affairs there. They are allowed one day a week to talk Maori, but even it is only outside hours. I think it should be taught in school hours, and taught scientifically. I may say have been learning the Maori language ever since I left Te Aute, and the more I learn the language the more I find there is in it. I derive a great deal of pleasure from learning it. Besides, it helps to make a boy love things Maori – the language and literature of his own people and he becomes interested in the legends and traditions of his own race.
54. The Chairman.] You desire that the traditions of the Maori race should be preserved? – Yes. I think if you take away the racial pride from the Maori heart, and pride in the traditions of his people, you lower his character.
55. In regard to religious education at Te Aute, do you think there is too much time occupied in that? – I do not think so. I think in the time-table there is only about half an hour, or less, given to the explanation of the Scriptures during school hours. Of course, religious instruction is also imparted by means of the chapel and the daily school services. It is mostly taught in that way.
56. Does what you have said about the training of boys at Te Aute in manual and industrial education apply with equal force to girls at Hukarere? – No, I do not think so. It is domestic education they should go in for there.
57. Have you been at the Hukarere School? – Yes.
58. There is more training in industrial and manual subjects than at Te Aute? – They are taught to wash, sew, etc, and to become useful in their own homes? – Yes.
59. Mr. Hogg.] What is the usual term spent at Te Aute? – It depends on the standard a boy is in when he goes there. About five years, I should say.
60. On the day set apart for teaching the Maori language, are the boys taught to translate English into Maori, and Maori into English? – No: they are allowed to talk Maori.
61. Do you not think it would be a great advantage if they were taught to write both languages and to translate from one to the other? – Yes, it would.
62. Does the teaching of Latin help them in their English? – Decidedly.
63. When they leave school are they generally able to write well and fluently in the English language? – Yes, the boys of the fifth and sixth classes and the matriculation students.
64. Are they able to dispense with an interpreter in giving evidence or in speaking at public gatherings? – Yes, they are able to speak fairly well.
65. You say there is only a small proportion of them adapted for secondary work? – Yes.
66. Consequently the time devoted to that is practically lost afterwards? – That is my opinion.
67. You are aware that a very large proportion of our European children never enter the University? – Yes.
68. In the case of the Maori boys dressing expensively, is that not due to the fact that their parents cannot afford to prosecute their further education? When I say that living at Te Aute has became [become] expensive, I believe that a good many parents would not be able to afford to send their children there.
10 – G. 5.
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69. You think that only a very few boys taught at Te Aute would succeed – even if they entered a university – in professional life? – Yes, a very small proportion, as the Maori race is at present. Of course the Maori intellect may be improved and developed.
70. And industrial training would be of immense benefit to them? – Yes, and also to the State.
71. You think Te Aute well fitted for an industrial college? – Yes. The climate does not suit some of the northern boys. Some boys have lost their lives through the cold climate; but, speaking generally, the climate is suitable for carrying on agricultural work.
72. Mr. Lee.] Do you think the University deals fairly by the Maori boys in that it expects the same measure of work from the Maori boy as from other students? – We have asked the Theological Board to make a certain allowance for a pupil who is a Maori, and not to ask him to pass the same percentage.
73. He has to answer in English, which is practically a foreign language? – Yes. Some of our boys have been to the University, and have done well. I did not succeed so well – not on account of my English, but on account of mathematics.
74. You express the opinion that the boys should be graded, by which I understand you to mean that those who are going up for higher work, such as matriculation, should be separated from those who are not? – Yes; and those who did not go on to higher education should be told that farming would be better for them, after going to the Fifth Standard.
75. Would you divide them into classes – those who are going up for matriculation and those who are going in for farming? – Those would be the general divisions. Of course some other changes might be made here and there.
76. You have been in a class for woodwork in a technical school? – Yes.
77. Did you not find that the instruction you received was a better equipment in carpentering than training in a shop would be? – Quite so. It does not teach us the trade, but the principles of it.
78. Do you not think it is better to teach the principles of agriculture than to attempt to make farmers of the students, as it were, by practical work? – Cannot they both be taught at an agricultural college – the principles first and then the practical work after?
79. In any technical subject there will be a modicum of practical work, but the great bulk of the work will be on principles? – I do not think a purely technical college would be the best thing. It should lead on to more practical work.
80. I understand you to think that there should be one secondary school for the Maoris and that Te Aute is the best? – Yes.
81. If Te Aute is to be the best for a secondary school, presumably the greater part of the work must be secondary- school work? – Yes, but seeing that a very small percentage of the boys going to Te Aute receive secondary education – about five out of the total number – I think it should not be a secondary institution – a purely secondary school – but with an industrial branch connected with it, into which the bulk of the boys should be drafted.
82. Most of the time of the boys going to Te Aute must be devoted to secondary education: there is not the time to put in the work of an agricultural college? – Going on to the station would practically mean the severance of the boys from Te Aute. If it was a purely technical education, it means that a boy would have to be a cadet on a station before he becomes an expert farmer, and the Maoris cannot do that.
83. I contend that it is impractical for Te Aute to be at once a technical school and an agricultural college: that the best that can be done is to have Te Aute as a secondary school, and tack on to it technical education and agriculture. Do you not think that is practicable and suitable, and that by-and-by the boy could get his practical experience? – Yes, I see what you contend. .
84. The Chairman.] I understand you to say you would like to see the boys who are to devote themselves to the learned professions classified at Te Aute and prepared for the universities, and the other boys taught in practical industrial work? – Yes, on the estate itself. A boy who joins the industrial department should give up purely scholastic work when he has passed a certain standard.
85. Mr. Ngata.] Mr. Lee was pointing out that technical instruction in agriculture could not be a portion of the secondary education at Te Aute; that a classical training and a technical training in agriculture could not be taken together? I think it could be arranged that one should not interfere with the other.
86. In regard to the difficulty in carrying out any extended work in agriculture, you know yourself that if the boys spend hours during the day at ploughing, or at grafting or budding fruit- trees, they would be rendered unfit for any classical work? – Yes. My idea, however, is that when the boys are graded to the agricultural branch they would give up scholastic work.
87. If they went on to the station that would not be a part of Te Aute: they would be cadets, and they might be anywhere as well as at Te Aute? – Yes.
88. In regard to the expenses of your brother at Te Aute, what would his expenses for clothing be during the year? – Of course I have to restrain him. His expenses would be about £25 a year, including passage-money and train fares and subscriptions.
89. Since ten or fifteen years ago in what proportion would you say the expenses of the boys have increased? – According to my remarks, I should say 100 per cent, or more.
90. I do not know whether you made it plain if you thought this increased expense was in any way due to the masters directly? – Not directly, though they may be to blame indirectly. Of course I think they could make a rule as to what the boys are to wear. I think it is quite right masters in a Native school should do that. I do not think they should go in for extravagant dressing.
91. With regard to occupations, on the whole you think farming life is best suited to the Maori? – Yes, to the bulk of the Native people.
R. KOHERE.] 75 G. – 5.
92. Your chief reason would be, I suppose, that it is best for their health? – Yes. Naturally he is better fitted for outdoor life than in offices. He has land, and if he does not work the land the land will slip away from him.
93. On the other hand, commercial pursuits and clerical work are not only unsuitable, but are unhealthy for the average Maori? – Yes, I believe that.
94. Any occupation that means confinement during the greater part of the day is unhealthy for the average Maori? – Yes.
95. At present you think the Te Aute training fits the average Maori boy rather for a clerical or commercial occupation than anything else? – Yes; and it is a great handicap to the boy when he goes into a trade.
96. In fact, it does not go quite far enough to make him quite fit for an up-to-date clerk, in as much as shorthand and typewriting, and so on, are not taught? – That is so, and after he has been a number of years at Te Aute he is too old to be taken on to learn a trade. People will not apprentice him at that age.
97. Mr. Eliot.] You said you would like Te Aute kept as a high school exclusively for Natives? – Yes.
98. Are the Natives, from your knowledge and observation, increasing or diminishing in numbers? – Of course there has been a general decrease for a good number of years.
99. My object in asking the question is this: if you make the school exclusively a Native school will you be able to keep up the supply of pupils in fifty years, say? – Yes, I think there would be the same number, if not more. I am rather in hopes that the Native race will increase as the result of our endeavours to raise them.
100. You tell us the pupils have more expensive tastes nowadays and cost more: is that not largely due to the fact that the spending-powers of the parents are greater than they were fifteen or twenty years ago? – I do not think so. It is due to a sort of fashion in the school.
101. Do the boys say “My parents can afford it, and I will have tailor-made clothes”? – That may be partly the reason, but it is due more to the fashion at the College.
102. You know what “ragging” is in the English public schools, and in the army and navy, and so on – that a boy is punished by his fellows for not keeping up with them: is there anything of that sort at Te Aute? – Of course this fashion came in vogue after I left. No doubt a boy who did not dress well would feel his position somewhat.
Mr. Ellison: I wish to make a slight amendment in the statement I made the other day before the Commission. It might be understood by the Natives and the public generally from that statement that the gift of the land for this College was a gift of the Natives of Hawke’s Bay. This was not the case. The gift was solely the gift of the Natives around Te Aute. What I meant to say was that the benefits accruing from the free education at the College should be extended to all parts of the Ahuriri district. I would also like to refer to the evidence of Mr. G. P. Donnelly, who gave the names of certain friendly Natives who had taken part in the fighting during the war. If Mr. Donnelly was going to name any he should have named the whole of them. There was Puhara, who was one of the captains in those days, and a most active fighter. The other prominent chiefs were Hapuku, Moananui, Pareiha, and Kopu Parapara. With regard to Kohere’s statement that a great deal of the laziness on the part of the College boys was owing to the amount of education taught in the school, I would like to say I do not quite agree with him, because I find that young Maoris at a certain age generally get lazy; and I think it is the same with European boys.
Before the Commission closed its Napier sittings, the Chairman intimated that he had received from Mr. J. B. Fielder, one of the Te Aute College trustees, a statement of the insurances on Te Aute and Hukarere schools and other property, for inclusion in the proceedings of the Commission [Exhibit No. 40].
WELLINGTON, THURSDAY, 31st MAY, 1906.
JAMES HENRY POPE examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are the ex-Inspector of Government Native Schools? – Yes.
2. From what date to what date did you hold that position? – From the beginning of 1880 to the end of 1903 – a period of twenty-four years.
3. Latterly you had an Assistant-Inspector? – Yes, Mr. Bird.
4. It was part of your duty to inspect the Te Aute School? – Yes.
5. Will you state generally what system of education was in vogue when you first went there as Inspector, and say whether that system has since been changed; and suggest any changes that seem to you desirable? – The system in vogue when I went first to Te Aute was what may be called the English grammar-school system. But it was gradually getting diluted. The new matter that was being poured into it, so to speak, was the result of the necessities that made themselves manifest as time went on. These necessities arose from the differences between Maoris and Europeans – the differences between the problems of educating young Maoris and that of educating young Europeans. These, of course, very largely depended on the ways of life of the children of the two races. The whole process from beginning to end was the gradual elimination of things that seemed to the authorities of the school – and to myself among them – unnecessary or unsuitable for the education of young Maoris. It is very hard indeed to dig into such a big business all at once. One hardly knows where to find a suitable starting point; but, generally, I may say that an important part of what was being done there was a groping for light. Mr. Thornton and the other masters had already done and were doing good work, as good as could possibly be expected from men who from the nature of things, were in the main ignorant of the task that was going
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to lie before them by-and-by. The principal difficulty that had to be encountered was connected with the language question. The authorities of the school had, very wisely I think, thrust aside the use of the Maori language, they had determined to make the school English as far as possible.
6. When you talk of the authorities, who were the authorities at that time? – After a very little time the authorities were practically Mr. Thornton (the headmaster) and myself. He entered upon new courses as they opened themselves out to him, and it was part of my duty to criticize these and point out what I thought might be further improvements; or in a few cases I may have told him, and, in fact, did suggest to him, that the older plan was probably the better, and that it was not quite desirable to get entirely rid of the Maori work. These exceptions, however, were very gradually eliminated by a kind of natural dialectic, and, as a rule, what was done may be taken to have been the result of our combined work, experience, and consultation; or, in the first place, of his suggestion or adoption, and my criticism. One of the first things that had to be done in connection with the work was to determine what the aim was to be. It had soon been found that unless there was some standard to work up to there would be an indefiniteness in all that was being done. I found that Mr. Thornton had already begun to set his pupils to work for the University Matriculation Examinations, and that he wished to make these his school goal, so to say. It seemed to me that there “was no other course of equal value open. The elementary schools were at this time just beginning to do their proper work, and it seemed plain that before very long it would be quite possible to bring boys attending the Native schools up to the pitch of the Fourth, Fifth, and even the Sixth Standards of the public schools. Soon it seemed that the next thing to be aimed at was the affiliation of the elementary schools to the boarding schools. In the boarding school itself we gradually came to think – Mr. Thornton being generally the suggester, I being the critic when criticism seemed to be required – the work should be assimilated in some degree to that of the English public school; but that the ultimate aim of the work should be the fitting of the best of the Maori boys to be leaders of the Maori people – to be the guides and guardians of them from the Maori point of view. In fact, to gradually be in a position to take my place, or my successor’s, as the critic of the system in use in the school, and its adaptation to Maori needs. Time went on, and good work, according to Mr. H. B. Kirk, M.A., my able colleague, and me, was done. An account of this work may be seen at length – perhaps sometimes at too great length – in my reports for all these years. I have them at home, and if members of the Commission so desire I could supply a copy for their use. The whole thing is drawn out in a long panorama in these reports, so to speak. As time passed various questions arose,- one of early date was this: Besides this ultimate aim of relation to university work, was there any other object particularly desirable? At a very early period it was seen that all the boys could not possibly become graduates, or university professors, or members of Parliament, and so on; and it seemed to us desirable that, as far as possible, attention should be directed to all possible means of giving the Maori’s superior skill in connection with the rudiments of handwork and matters of that kind that might by-and-by lead to improvement among the Maoris outside of mere literary work. This was kept steadily in view, but from one cause or another was not acted on so fully as it might have been. It must be remembered, though, that at the time referred to we had not the light that we now have on the subject. Even the teaching of handwork in European schools was still a sort of terra incognita. We did not know where we were ‘in regard to that, and still less where we were going, or what we ought to do. However, this matter was never entirely lost sight of, and I feel bound to say here, in defence of Mr. Thornton, supposing that he is attacked in any way – I do not know whether he is or not – that any shortcomings that there were in regard to this very point – the cultivation of hand and eye – were rather his misfortune than his fault. In the very early days neither he nor I, nor any of the rest of us, knew our way about sufficiently to be able to set things on the right track, as far as hand and eye work was concerned. But many attempts were made, and Mr. Thornton did, as far as in him lay, what could be done in the way of getting the boys to learn to handle tools. At one time the attempt seemed rather promising. A master was appointed who was fairly well skilled in the use of tools, and who seemed to be pretty competent.
7. Was that Mr. Dunn, who afterwards left and went to Wanganui College? – Yes. Though it is almost an insult to Mr Thornton to apologize for him on this particular point, or any other, I must say that I never saw in him the slightest sign of indifference in regard to this handwork. Certain it is that he always tried to do his very best according to his lights and his facilities. But now, looking back. over past years, I am inclined to think that from some cause or other this very important subject – more important now than ever, just because it is in contrast with the effects of the light that has appeared in other parts of our educational system – was overlooked to some extent, and so this shortcoming of Te Aute, if it may be so-called, is brought into greater relief. It is my opinion – if that is worth anything, and if I may take the liberty of saying so – that it ought to be one of the objects of the Commission to see this matter of handwork put on a sound and solid basis before considering it done with. I should now be glad if the members of the Commission would give me a lead. It will give me pleasure to say all that I know in any particular direction. 8. I should be glad to hear what you have to say in regard to the education of the two races together: whether in your opinion the school should be kept as a school entirely for Natives, or whether it is desirable that Europeans should also be admitted, – – That is a wide and difficult question. There are many issues in it. One would really have to adopt a “yes-no” policy in replying. For instance, when you think how much it might improve the power of the Maori boys to speak English, you would say that it would be desirable that the English and the Maori boys should be together. Here is another point of view: In certain subjects the tendency would be for the Europeans to go ahead of the Maori boys, and so discourage them. I should just like here to propound a tremendous heresy, and have done with it. I think the intellectual capacity of the Maori – I will not say of the average Maori, but of the very large upper portion of the Maori race – is equal to the intellectual capacity of the corresponding portion of Europeans. That is not to say that the
J. H. POPE.] 77 G. – 5.
Maori is going to learn quite as quickly what the European learns. But the reason of that is that the European has all the advantage derivable from practical familiarity on his own side, when he is learning European matters. I do not know whether ancestral aptitude has anything to do with it, possibly it has. At first there is with the Maori a kind of stiffness in acquiring European culture and science, and so forth; but, supposing this to be worn off, I should, if asked to decide, on my oath, between a first-class Maori and a first-class European, declare that I do not believe there is any difference between the two. However, this is a digression. If a master is judicious and careful, and is capable of preventing the arising of racial jealousy between his Maori boys and his European boys, I think it would be quite advantageous to have them educated together. The Maoris would certainly learn a great deal from the Europeans, and Europeans, I think, would learn from educated Maori boys little or no evil. On the whole, I should like to leave the question as to whether it is desirable that Maori and European boys should be taught together quite open, unless some member of the Commission would kindly suggest some particular line I should take. On any special point I could probably give a more definite answer.
9. I suppose in your travels you have seen a great deal of the Maoris? – Yes.
10. Is it your opinion that it would be better to devote the income from this endowment to manual and. technical instruction – making the education industrial rather than secondary? – For my own part I think it is only fair play to the Maoris – shall come to the educational expediency of it directly to give those Maoris who are capable of receiving it as good a chance as is given to the Europeans, who have their high schools and colleges, at which they can be taught the very best things by the very best men. I think the Maoris should have exactly the same opportunity. The tone that is aimed at for the European should be aimed at also for the Maori. Of course, it may be that I have been so long with the Maoris that I feel almost a Maori in some points myself; but you will be able to discount my partiality, if you think I exaggerate.
11. We want to know exactly what is your opinion? – Well, that is my view.
12. What industrial training took place during your time at Te Aute? – The boys learnt to use carpenters’ tools, and though the progress was not very great, it was considerable. It was worth taking account of. It was not a thing done now and again; it was carried on systematically. It was gradually shelved, I think, partly because the money-supply was rather too little. An attempt was made to get the work done by masters rather than by a practised technical teacher. I think now, looking back on the past, that it would have been a very good thing indeed if a technical master could have been appointed. The thing could have been made rather more “swell,” if I may use the expression, and not a mere “hanger-on” of the other work.
13. Can you give us any idea as to the percentage of boys who pass through the school who would be fitted for the learned professions and other higher walks in life? – I could prepare you a paper from the material I have at home. I know the number of boys who matriculated at different times was very considerable. Probably members of the Commission could answer that question better than I could, seeing that I have had nothing to do with the school since I examined it for the last time. But one would think that from 7 to 10 per cent. of the boys in the upper division would matriculate eventually. There has, I understand, been less success in this direction of late years. Of course, we all know very well that even if a boy does not quite succeed in getting through, he derives a great deal of good from the mere preparation of the work. If you ask me what percentage of the boys were very decidedly benefited by the so – called higher education even the old-fashioned higher education, I should say 50 per cent. at the very least. Of course, one would find it almost impossible to express the relative value of the two things with the accuracy that is given by numbers. I cannot say that so many of those I knew were benefited by one kind of instruction and so many by another. I should be glad, if you wished me to do so, to send you a list of the percentages of the boys who have passed the Matriculation Examination.
14. I suppose you have followed the career of these boys after leaving school? – Many of them; but not so many as I could have wished, and for this reason: they are so very widely scattered. I hear of them now and again. Sometimes one is told of a misadventure, where the system appears not to have answered, but on the whole I think the results have been good.
15. Do you think it would be better to pay more attention to the industrial side of the question than is given now? – Oh, most undoubtedly.
16. Do you think that the industrial teaching should be the main feature of the school? – Well, a main feature certainly.
17. A prominent feature? – Yes. If you take “main” as a superlative, my answer would be in the negative; but taking it as the word is ordinarily used, I should say, “Yes.”
18. Has it been a prominent feature? – No; but at the time that I have already spoken about, within its own limits it had considerable importance, but you would not have said, Well, you know handwork at Te Aute is quite a prominent subject. It received a useful amount of attention; but full steam was not kept on sufficiently long to get all the good out of it that might have been got.
19. Did you ever have any conferences with the trustees on the question? – Yes, and I have even had conferences with single members of the trust.
20. And with Archdeacon Williams? – Yes, very often.
21. I suppose you have read the newspaper reports of the evidence given by the trustees in Napier before us? – I have seen the outlines of it.
22. You see they are unanimously willing that prominence should be given to the industrial side of the instruction, and that the Archdeacon is also willing? – If prominence means that it is to stand out beyond everything I should greatly prefer to see it made of equal rank with the other work. I should go with them so far, but not quite all the way. I have here a copy of some of my old reports, and should like, with your permission, to read one or two extracts from them. In my report on the year 1901, contained in E. – 2, 1902, I said: “The educated men of the
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future will probably have to wield far more instruments than the pen, the rifle, and the cricket-ball. It may be remarked, too, that while it is well that scholastic institutions should be strong at games, and many other kinds of athletic exercises also, and that proficiency in these could, to some small extent at all events, serve as a substitute for ability to use the saw, the plane, the hammer, the compass, and the square, it may perhaps, be taken for granted that the most athletically minded of men would hardly maintain that cricket, or even football, can be justly considered a means for giving the thorough training of hand and eye which is going to be before very long a necessary part of an educated man’s equipment. Teachers whose life experience of teaching and being taught extends over more than, say, sixty years know quite well that there has in that time been a gradual shortening of the hours of work, and much more than corresponding increase of efficiency. These two facts are, on the whole, beyond question. The long experience of the present writer very possibly gives him a. kind of right to have an opinion on the subject, and he holds that the limits of decrease of school-time for mental subjects, and simultaneous increase of efficiency of teachers, have not yet been reached,- and he would venture to prophesy, if prophesying were one of his functions, that within ten years the limits for such hard mental work will be, for boy and man, about four hours a day – less rather than more. On the other hand, the ancient ‘school-teaching,’ which consists of sitting in the midst of a class and hearing pupils ‘recite lessons ” for five or six hours a day, will be even more obsolete than it is now. Should these contentions prove correct – and it is worth some trouble to find whether they are correct or not – the problem of manual work for Native schools would be as good as solved, for the hour or hour and a half saved could be devoted to technical occupations of one kind and another. Then, with an hour and a half a day besides for singing and drill, and for pure recreation, a very pretty time – table for a day’s occupations could be easily framed.” That is the point I had reached in 1901. One could go a little further now, possibly.
23. With regard to the question of time occupied in athletics football, cricket, and so on: what is your opinion about that? – I think it is a very important subject, but too much time should not be given to it. It tends to make a boy an all-round man; but it is pretty obvious that it might easily be overdone.
24. You approve of it in moderation? – Yes. I should have a reasonable time devoted to education proper, including technical work; then, outside of that I think a fair, moderate amount of athletic work would be altogether in place. I have not heard of any one who thinks differently that is, any one worth paying much attention to.
25. Do you not think it is essential that there should be a fair amount of time occupied in training the body as well as the mind? – Certainly.
26. You think they should be trained together as far as possible? – I think so.
27. Now, the question of the handicapping of Maori boys in their matriculation work, in that they have to secure the same percentage of marks as Europeans, came before us: Do you think they are unfairly handicapped? – I do not believe it. I think, especially as it has been shown that Maori boys can do the thing, that it would be a great pity to lower the standard. It is now a great achievement for a Maori boy to pass for matriculation, and a still greater for him to get- a degree. I think, though, more ought to be made of the fact that the Maori has uphill work, although I do not believe in the plan of making allowances for the Maori, seeing that he does not really require it. When we find one Maori taking high honours in arts, and another obtaining a medical degree, we can hardly see real need for any handicap, even although the work produce some strain. There is another thing to be said, if any allowance were made the honours that a Maori gained would at once lose their value. This would be my chief reason for opposing handicapping.
28. Have you been able to gather the opinion of the Maori people themselves with regard to the industrial training of their children? – I know that generally they are greatly in favour of it.
29. They have used the argument that they have plenty of land, and it is desirable their young people should be trained to go on the land and to utilise it, and therefore it would be better to give them a thorough insight into farming operations and agricultural work, and all that kind of thing, in the school, so as to fit them to take their place on the land after they leave school? – I think that is a thing not to be lost sight of, but feel sure that the only hope for the Maori – the only thing that will make the Maori continue to hold an equal place with Europeans of his own rank in life, and with Europeans generally, and make him able on occasion to appear as a European amongst Europeans is being called upon to do the work that the European does. It seems to me that if a Maori’s time is going to be entirely taken up with subjects that do not strengthen the mind or train it, he must fall behind. It is reasonable to believe that Maoris must have among them men of light and leading, if they are not to sink down. I myself feel positive of that.
30. I do not for a moment suggest that they should not have these opportunities; but is it not the opinion of the Maori people themselves that their children should be more particularly trained in industrial branches? – I have heard that mooted, but very seldom. I think it must be a comparatively recent thing, if their minds are full of it now. Anyway, it appears to me that there is a certain amount of reason in it. I do not see why agriculture, chemistry, and scientific farming, and so on, should not take the place in many cases of a university education. One advantage connected with work for the Matriculation Examination is that it serves as preparatory work for such things as scientific farming. It gives a very good basis for a man in any class of life in which head-work has to go along with hand-work.
31. Do you think there should be some system of classification, or what Mr. Thornton calls a “sifting process” by which the teachers in the school could pick out the boys fitted to go on to the University and into higher education, and draft off the other boys not so fitted into industrial pursuits? Do you think something of that sort should be done rather than trying to educate seventy or eighty boys through the Matriculation Examination, and only getting three or four to
J. H. POPE] 79 G. – 5.
pass? – Leaving out of view the fact that failure in the examination may sometimes have behind it a training of very high value – a lad may have been trained and may not have been able to reach the goal, and yet may have received very great benefit from the education actually given – it might possibly be a very good plan indeed when Maoris reach a certain point, and it becomes plain that their minds are not worth continuous and very extended cultivation, to allow a. divergence in certain directions, and to set the boys to learn industrial work.
32. Would you gauge it by standards? – You can hardly tell what a boy is going to be until he has got somewhere near the Sixth Standard.
33. May I suppose that is a matter for the teachers; we must assume that you have able teachers who are qualified to classify? – That is so.
34. Seeing that the learned professions are getting crowded, would it not be better to devote more time to the industrial branches, so that the boys whose parents have the land for them could go in for a system of education which would fit them for taking part in farming operations after leaving school? – Yes, I like the idea very well. I should not make it seem, however, that this sifting had to take place just when the idea of a professional career for a boy had been abandoned on account of failure. Up to a certain point I think all boys might well be trained for a considerable time as if they were going to be, I will not say possible university professors, but merely well-educated men. At that point, then, it might be desirable that divergence should take place into something, the utility of which would be absolutely certain.
35. With regard to the health of the boys at Te Aute School, I suppose you took pains during the time you were Inspector to ascertain what their general health was? – Yes.
36. Can you tell us generally what the health of the boys in that school has been or indifferent? – Well, it appeared to me that it was progressively getting better as time went on. At first there was much more sickness than there was when I left. One does not mean to say that it was through me that this improvement came about. Great care was always taken about sanitary matters. I used to make it a point to grumble about the sanitary arrangements whenever it was possible and just to do so. The utmost candour was used in my reports about anything that seemed insanitary.
37. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think the boys at this school are receiving a good English education? – I do indeed. Of course, I have to bear in mind the fact that they have the great initial difficulty of working in a foreign language. It takes a long time to overcome, but a Maori boy who has gone through Te Aute – I do not mean who has passed the Matriculation Examination, but one who has got into the highest class in the school – is most decidedly a well-educated young man. The same would hold of the class below. As you go down the classes, the “old Maori” and the difficulties arising from working in a foreign language become more apparent.
38. Are the young Maoris taught to read and write and to express the English language fairly well? – Yes, I think so.
39. Well, I want to know how it is that after leaving the College, and after having received what is termed a higher education, they are unable to converse and to give evidence without the assistance of an interpreter? – That would arise partly from shyness. You might meet one or two like that; but it would not at all accord with what I have the best reason to consider usual and fundamental fact. Those I have had to do with have generally been found very good indeed. I do not think I have met the phenomenon you had to deal with. I incline to the belief that the Maoris referred to acted as most Europeans would if they had to deal with foreigners in a language that they themselves had not been using for some time previously, especially if the business were unusual and important.
40. Will you be surprised to hear that our witnesses who had been through Te Aute College, with the exception of an interpreter by profession, had to obtain the services of an interpreter in giving their evidence? – Something might be said in the direction that what was being dealt with by this Commission was of a rather out-of-the-way nature.
41. In the Te Aute School, for instance, they are taught to translate Latin into English, and English into Latin: Are they taught to translate Maori into English, and English into Maori? – No; they are not. I may say that it was my view at the beginning that that was a very necessary thing to do. I do not think so now.
42. If it was necessary then, how is it that it has not been adopted? – I gave way. You will see in the earliest programmes that the boys and girls were expected to translate English sentences into Maori, and Maori sentences into English. Well, it was thought far better to have the thing on an Engish [English] basis. My voice was only one in the matter, and the practice was allowed to fall out, rightly I now believe.
43. You say you consulted Mr. Thornton frequently as to the system of education: did you ever discuss the purpose for which this endowment of land was handed over to the Church? – Yes.
44. Whether it was for a superior school – what is called a grammar school – or simply for a good English school where the Maoris would be taught the English language? – Of course, this was the aim; but doctors differ as to the best way of reaching it. I must confess that I am surprised to hear what you say as to ex-pupils not being able to speak in English. Do I understand you to say that several such cases came under your notice in the course of this Commission?
45. Mr. Eliott.] Friday Tomoana was the witness referred to by Mr. Hogg. He came before the Commission, and started in English, and then broke off into Maori: Do you know him? – Yes, and I should be surprised to learn that Friday Tomoana could not understand any ordinary English, or that he could not answer in English. I know a little about some languages besides my own, and if I meet any one who speaks one of these languages I always feel considerable difficulty for the first few minutes. In a while the “strange-language fever” goes off, and I get on satisfactorily enough.
G. – 5. 80 [J. H. POPE.
46. Mr. Hogg.] Have you met with many of the Te Aute School boys after they have left the College? – Yes. You know one cannot ride about the country for nearly a quarter of a century without meeting them.
47. Do you find that these boys are able to converse with you freely in English? – Well, it comes as a surprise to me that there should be such a question. I should be very much surprised if a boy who had gone through anything like the ordinary course was not able to talk to me very fairly well, and very well after a ten minutes’ talk.
48. We find the pupils are taught to translate Latin into English, but not Maori into English: how is it that Euclid and algebra are taught, and that such a thing as book-keeping is entirely omitted in that school? – Book-keeping is certainly a useful branch. I daresay it would not be hurtful to introduce it into a place like Te Aute; but I am inclined to look upon book-keeping as being very like a special trade. I am prepared to admit it might be a useful thing if taught in the school if the master had a special bent that way, but I should not like just yet to make it one of the compulsory subjects, especially when the time is so short, and when so much has to be done with the science of which book-keeping and kindred activities are offshots.
49. You have told us that you think clever boys amongst the Maoris should have an opportunity of obtaining a superior education: could that not be done by simply taking them from the ordinary schools and placing them in our European high schools and universities? – This is a very big question, and it is one that requires answering, I believe; but I think it ought to be a great object with Maori educationists to do nothing that will put their clients entirely out of touch with their own people.
50. But is it fair that ninety-five out of a hundred Maori youths, to put it that way, should be kept for a year or two learning Euclid, algebra, Latin, and other branches of education that will be of no use whatever to them after they leave school, in order that five may receive a superior education in their company? – I think that this rather begs the question. The work is not altogether done in order that the five may be educated and the others may be left out in the cold. That is a consequence in some cases; but I think that to support your view it would be necessary to show that the five are thoroughly well educated and that the others do not receive any benefit. Now, two or three of them who have not the necessary ability may go but little beyond their starting point; but I do not think it is fair to take what the others – the pupils that are neither geniuses nor dullards – have learned as being worth nothing. Of course, it is very hard, to quote an example, that fifty or sixty horses should be trained for months and months, and that only one horse should get the prize. It seems to me that the horses that do not get the prize may’ still be greatly benefited by the training received, and the progress of horse-racing (though I am not a racing man myself) may be very beneficial to the breed of horses in general.
51. Mr. Lee.] When you first examined the school I suppose it was altogether a primary school? – Even then the idea was, so far as I have understood it, to give the young Maoris an opportunity of getting a high-class education and to get from amongst the Maoris young men of light and leading who should be guides and beacons for the rest of the young people.
52. That may be, but still I suppose Latin was not introduced into the school at first? – I think it was. Of course, I had not to do with the school from the very first.
53. Has the headmaster of the school generally taken his direction from you in the matter of the curriculum of the school? – Well, I endeavoured not to make it a matter of direction. I used to discuss things with Mr. Thornton, and say I should do this in such-and-such a way, and so on. I set forth what seemed to me the reason of the case, and then, if things turned out well, it was all right; if they did not turn out so well, the fault was not exactly mine, I thought.
54. Am I right in saying you approve of Te Aute being made the secondary school in the colony for the Maori? – Well, I should like that question to be answered by Professor Kirk and Mr. Bird rather than by myself. I wish to say that at the time when I left the school two years and a half ago it really held that place, and I thought it was a proper one for it to hold; not because it was perfect – it is not, in the nature of things, possible for such an institution to be perfect – but I thought it was then the leading school of the Maori schools of New Zealand.
55. Have you always approved of the teaching of Latin throughout the school? – I do not think I could have approved of it throughout the school.
56. Do you recognise that there are great differences in faculty of mind and also in quality of mind in Maori as well as in European children? – Surely.
57. Do you not think then that it would be well, somewhere about the Fifth Standard, to specialise in a school of this description so that the boys who have no faculty for Latin should have their time devoted to other subjects more useful to them? – Yes, I am prepared to agree with that.
58. You are in favour of technical education, properly so-called? – Decidedly.
59. Do you think that the technical education given should be technical education in agriculture for the most part, or would you suggest that it should be woodwork or some other branch of technical education? – I think it would be well, as far as possible, to have in the future the teaching of general principles, always with considerable reference to actual practical uses.
60. That is what I understand by technical education – I am referring to the principles of agriculture? – I say then, “Yes, theoretical and practical as far as possible.”
61. Do you think the teaching staff of Te Aute College, as far as you have known it, has been satisfactory: that it has consisted of qualified men? – There have been some very good men indeed there. Changes have been moderately frequent.
62. Do you think that Maori should be taught as English would be taught to English boys in an English school – that is to say, that the Maori youths should be taught the Maori language and the Maori legends: that the parts of the Maori language which would be classical should be taught as part of the instruction for Maori boys? – I am inclined to think that it would be better to leave
J. H. POPE.] 81 G. – 5.
Maori as it is now. I do not think it would be well to take it up in school. I am sure it would interfere injuriously with the teaching of English.
63. We found in Te Aute some three students who are learning French – students going up for matriculation: would it not be better to have those three boys go in for Maori instead of French? Would it not be better for a Maori boy to come up for Maori as an English boy would come up in English? – I dare say the ordinary Maori boy would be thankful for the opportunity. I do not think it would be wise to let him have it; but it might be.
64. Do you know whether it is a fact that in one year six boys who had been at Te Aute School died? – I think that is very possible; but it must have been a considerable time ago. The health of Te Aute has greatly improved.
65. Can you account for it in any way? – I think the surroundings of Te Aute have been gradually improved. I do not think anything of the kind would take place there now, unless some extraordinary general epidemic should visit the district.
66. With respect to book-keeping – whatever may be the value of book-keeping now – book-keeping should not be thought of as a subject in school? – Just so; it was an extra subject.
67. Mr. Eliott.] Do you know Reweti Kohere, of Te Rau College, Gisborne? – Yes.
68. He gave us some evidence which impressed me very much. If you know him I would like to get your opinion on some of his statements. Do you think he is qualified to give a thoughtful answer? He seemed to me to be a thoughtful man, and to have studied the question. I will read a few extracts from his evidence. He said, “He thought everyone now agreed that there should be a purely Maori secondary school, and Te Aute was the only one, he believed, in the colony. It should never be done away with. It was a school where the best Maori intellect could be developed and directed. He thought it stood as a remarkable monument of the strides made by a savage race in the intellectual world.” Do you agree with that? – Yes, to a large extent.
69. He also said that if it had not been for Te Aute these strides would not have been made? – That is a rather venturesome statement.
70. He also said, “He thought the most promising boys should receive secondary education and be helped as much as possible to reach the university colleges.” How far will you go with him in that? – If the material is there, by all means let it be cultivated.
71. He said be believed, however, that the bulk of the boys who went to Te Aute should not receive secondary education? – I could not say that, seeing that bulk ought to mean 60 or 70 per cent.
72. He goes on, “It would be beneficial to the school if another department were added to the scholastic side, in the form of industrial instruction, agricultural, and pastoral. The Te Aute authorities objected to any addition of the kind, and said such instruction should be given in a separate institution” Could not an agricultural department he grafted on to the present school? – It has often occurred to me that something might be done in the way of having a farm in connection with Te Aute, but I have never seen my way to formulate anything with respect to it.
73. Have you found a tendency on the part of Te Aute boys to go back to the communistic life of the pas after leaving the school, or do they separate themselves and live as pakehas? – Separation has been brought about in the case of boys getting appointments, and then they have become virtually pakehas.
74. Would you encourage that? – If I were a Maori and know what I know I would cling to my race. Also, I would help the Maori to do the same, if possible.
75. As to the teaching of trades, we have had some objection to that on the ground that it takes the boys away from their own people, and that they lead town lives, which is not beneficial to them. Do you think the teaching of trades should be stopped on that account? – No; I do not think so. I think the difficulty now referred to would not occur very often. The technical scholarships given by the Department last for two years only. That kind of danger was foreseen and provided against, and I do not think it occurs now.
76. Do you not think that the danger would be got over if the technical education was principally devoted to farming – to agricultural and pastoral pursuits – which the Maori is supposed to be best fitted? – I think the result would be about the same. If an agricultural scholarship were given, say, for two years only, I think the scholar might go back to his people without harm of any kind.
77. In regard to the teaching at Te Aute College, we are told that the main aim is matriculation for the University: we are also told that the Maori boys educated there have some difficulty in finding employment. Would it not be better if they went up for the Civil Service Examinations, and thus get a chance of entering the public service? That seems to be lost sight of at Te Aute altogether? – This kind of suggestion has never come under my notice before, and I do not care to give an answer off-hand; but I think it is worth considering.
78. It would facilitate the employment of the boys? – Yes; certainly.
79. You said it was not necessary to apologize for Mr. Thornton but in your opinion does his influence and personality have a great effect on the boys, as to tone and demeanour for good? – My knowledge of Mr. Thornton’s work at Te Aute would make me speak strongly in his favour, if this were necessary would make me think he has done a great deal of first class work there. In respect to impressing the boys, it has always seemed to me that they look up to him as a kind of father and a remarkably good kind, too.
80. We have heard all sorts of things as to what Archdeacon Williams has done – that his heart and soul are in the school. Is this correct? – I do not doubt it.
81. Did you inspect the Hukarere Girls’ School? – Yes.
82. Does the education given at that school benefit the girls in domestic life? – Yes; most decidedly
11 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 82 [J. H. POPE.
83. Have you met any of the pupils after they have left the school and gone into private life? – Yes.
84. And they have benefited by the education given there? – Yes.
85. Mr. Ngata.] I have before me your report on secondary education for the Maoris in 1902: have you seen any reason since to alter any views expressed in that paper? – There may be some trifling details perhaps that lapse of time has caused to become of more or of less importance; but my views are expressed in that paper, and I shall stand or fall by them.
86. Those are your views after some twenty or thirty years’ experience of Native schools and in connection with higher schools? – Yes, after twenty-four years’ experience. To what has been said above it is desirable to add that most valuable assistance was given by Mr. H. B. Kirk, M.A., for many years. As that gentleman will give evidence on the whole subject, it is unnecessary to say more than that many important and well-thought-out improvements suggested by us owe their existence to him to a very considerable extent.
At Mr. Ngata’s request an extract from the report by Mr. Pope on Native schools from E. – 2, 1902, was put in [Exhibit No. 41].
FELIX THEOPHILUS O’NEILL examined.
87. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am Chief Clerk, Lands and Survey Department.
88. You produce a file of correspondence relating to the issue of title to the Te Aute endowment? – Yes, from the earliest time we have been able to find it. From the letter of Sir George Grey to Mr. Domett.
89. Is that a complete record? – Yes, in the Land and Survey Department.
90. You also produce two deeds of cession from the Natives to the Queen? – Yes [Exhibit No. 42], and the conveyance in connection with the exchange – from the Bishop to the Queen.
GEORGE HOGBEN examined.
91. The Chairman.] You are Inspector-General of Schools? – Yes, I have occupied that position since the 1st April, 1899.
92. You have studied this question of the education given at the Te Aute School? – Yes. I wish to offer evidence on that; possibly it might be more convenient if I made a general statement first.
93. Will you kindly make a general statement on any matters referred to the Commission, and also on any other questions which may be of assistance to the Commission? – The position at Te Aute educationally is really only a part of a very large question. The whole aspect of education has changed very much in the last twenty-five years, and probably it will change very much more luring the next twenty-five years. It is probably pretty safe to prophesy that. So that it is almost unnecessary to say that one does not greatly blame the Te Aute authorities for being like many of their European brethren, a little behind in relation to this matter. Some of us have been trying for twenty-five years or more to bring about a change, and we have been looked upon as faddists accordingly; but other people are now coming round to our views. Revolutions do not pay educationally any more than they do in any other respect; but nevertheless the time does come for radical changes. Having watched Te Aute ever since I came to this colony, and having been acquainted to a certain extent with the treatment – not always successful – of highly-endowed Native races elsewhere, it was refreshing to come to this colony and see what was being done by the trustees and the Government for the higher education of Maoris, and to follow up the question with some degree of interest. But I think that the time has come when at Te Aute there should be a change that nay be described as nothing less than radical. It is no use trying to patch up any longer the old system, but we must make a radical change. Public opinion, that of the trustees themselves, and the opinion of the Department I think agree generally in this, that, as I have said, the time has come for a radical change. When you are making a radical change it is just as well to look at the principles on which you are making it, and do the work properly when you have the opportunity. That change has been made in a certain sense at Hukarere. The amount of change that was necessary at Hukarere was less than is necessary at Te Aute. When I visited Hukarere in December, 1904, and examined the pupils (as I examined also the pupils of the other secondary Maori schools), I did so in order that I might become acquainted more fully with the quality of the work done. I had inspected these schools before and had seen the work done by the various classes while the teaching was going on; but I also wanted to judge it by examination. I found that the hint which had been given at my inspection visit to Hukarere as to the teaching of Latin lad only been partly acted upon. It was my duty to inspect that school, or to send an Inspector of Native Schools to inspect it; but I was not in a position exactly to dictate to the authorities what they should teach. Even in regard to the holders of Government scholarships I did not desire to take up the attitude of appearing to dictate so much as to suggest. At the time of the examination, however, I said, “What is the use of teaching these girls Latin? They have already learnt one foreign language. Would it not be better that the time spent in Latin – in teaching the pupils another foreign language – were spent in teaching them practical work?” They agreed to that, and since then I believe no Latin has been taught there. The effect has been not to diminish the quantity or the intellectual quality or value of the work done. The education those girls receive allows time for practical work which may also be used as an educational instrument. That brings me to a very important point involved in one of the problems before the Commission which you cannot shut out altogether from the discussion of the question. Some previous witnesses seemed to suggest that if there is no Latin in the course it is not secondary education, or, at least that, if there is no foreign language in it other than English, it is not secondary education. That opinion is held probably by the majority of people even now. I think, however, that a change in public opinion will take place in, say, the next twenty-five years; that change will consist in giving up
G. HOGBEN.] 83 G. – 5.
such an idea altogether. Secondary education does not depend upon the specific subjects you teach, but upon the method of treatment of those subjects with a view to the development of observation and all the other powers of the human mind and body. There is first the stage that is the same for every citizen of the country – the primary stage. The next stage is the secondary stage. The subjects used are simply instruments. What you want to do is to give your pupils material and power to use the material. There is also the essential point in the question of Maori education. What you want to do is to give the material for thought that will put them in the most living connection with their future life – looking at that future life not merely from the point of view of bread – earning, but in all its aspects and interests. You want to develop the powers that they will need in order to carry out this object in regard to bread-earning and to the rest of their life. There is hardly a subject that you could name, if it is dealt with in the right way, but may be made a most important instrument in carrying out this aim; the most important instrument of all being the language they are going to think in. In other words, if you are going to get the Maori to live with the English, there is only one essential subject as a means of thought – that is, the English language. There are other subjects that are needed to bring them into contact with their outer life, and among those are the subjects of manual instruction. That is exactly the same problem that we have to take in the case of the Europeans; that is the way we shall have to teach in the schools. I hold that opinion only as one among many people, for the majority are still perhaps doubtful whether such a statement of the case is a true one. But I believe that in the next twenty-five years or so there will be a fundamental change in the direction I have indicated. It is important that the method of teaching should be such as to develop the intelligence and the other powers of the mind and body, and if your present subjects will not do this, or will not do it in the most profitable way, then you must take up some other subjects. Latin and similar subjects have in the past been treated by men of high intelligence and skill, and they used those subjects with more or less success as instruments for impressing their minds upon their pupils. You can get secondary education out of English just as well as you can out of any other language. And you can get secondary education out of technical and manual instruction just as much as you can out of any other scientific subjects. If you teach a man merely to dig you are teaching him only the manual part of the trade; but if you teach him to dig in a particular way, and why he should dig in that way, and therein teach him to think and observe, you train him intellectually just in the same kind of way as if he were being trained in the use of electricity. What we have been trying to get the Te Aute authorities to see – and I think they are beginning to see it now – is that by teaching the pupils carpentry and mensuration you can give them intellectual training in much the same way as by teaching Euclid and algebra. In fact, the English schools are now teaching geometry in a practical way, – and I suggested to the Te Aute authorities in 1904 that they should treat ‘the subject according to the method now being adopted in English schools – that is, that they should teach geometry first by actual experiment and measurement. I would continue geometry to a further stage in the case of the boys who gave great promise; but I would, right away, drop Latin, Euclid, and algebra out of the Te Aute School curriculum altogether. If the reform goes short of that, it is simply patchwork. English is a foreign language to the Native students at Te Aute, but as opposed to Latin, English is the language they will have to use. Now, with regard to the training they will get in mathematics. I should say teach them the arithmetic of common life, the arithmetic that would enable them to keep their accounts – for arithmetic includes the principles of book-keeping, and in the public-school, syllabus a certain amount of book-keeping is set down as a part of arithmetic. The principles of book – keeping to be taught would include the keeping of a cash account. You would teach the boys to know what is meant by a simple balance-sheet, and what is meant by assets and liabilities. They should, in short, know how to keep accounts of their own transactions. They should be taught to make such measurements as they will require in ordinary life. We want to teach the Maoris that amount of arithmetic, and to teach it practically and intelligently We want to teach them geography – what they need – so as to be able to read English books intelligently, not necessarily teaching them minute topography, but such an amount of geography as will make them intelligent citizens. We want to teach them history so far as it is involved in the study of civics. By civics I mean the study of the circumstances of modern life, so as to lead them to think about the duties and rights of citizenship – elementary civics. We also want to teach them the elements of health. These subjects are essentials – English, aritmetic [arithmetic], geography, civics, and health. The last three subjects might also be made instruments for improving their English; for in learning those things they are using their English all the time. There is one thing that may well be left to the trustees – namely, that a certain amount of time should be given up to religious instruction. The rest of the time would be given to subjects that should train their observation and give them manual dexterity, say to agricultural instruction, to woodwork, which I take as the representative of certain manual and technical subjects, and far and away the best representative, educationally, because they are thereby taught drawing, practice in the use of tools, and the relation of the tools to the drawing; you also teach them at the same time what is practically useful – :teach them to build houses. I would give to English six, hours a week; geography, civics, and health, four hours a week (that gives at least ten hours a week of practice in the use of English); arithmetic, including book-keeping, four hours a week; religious instruction, two hours a week; drill, one hour; agriculture and woodwork, eight hours a week. It is no use trying to do these manual subjects by halves. There is a certain object to be attained, and if you do not bring them up to the paying- point, it is hardly worth while doing it at all. I recommend bringing it up to the paying-point. What is the paying-point? Experience has shown us what is the paying-point for Europeans, and taking the different circumstances you could not put it at less than from four to four hours and a half a week for agricultural instruction in the case of Maoris. With respect to agricultural instruction, I would recommend the programme set down here under the head of “Elementary Agriculture,” which is given as an optional subject in the Civil Service Junior Examination programme
G. – 5. 84 [G. HOGBEN.
implies that half the time is given to practical work in the field or garden, and the rest of it is partly experimental – laboratory work – and partly theory. This kind of work is being done in a large number of European schools now. We are beginning in the colony to a very large extent to go on those lines in our European schools, and I cannot imagine any much better lines, with perhaps just a little alteration in respect to the plants chosen – I cannot imagine much better lines for the teaching of the Maoris. If you give these Maori students from four to four hours and a half a week instruction in this branch for two years it will improve them, even should they go back to the life of their Native pas, because, if I may use a Hibernicism, they will not be so much at sea when they go back to farm their own land. These students will very soon become practical farmers, and the instruction given in the school will enable them to avoid a great many mistakes. I may mention, as an illustration, what I noticed at St. Stephen’s School in Auckland. There is a garden there of something like an acre in area. The boys do practical work in the garden, and the practical results are such that they will never forget. It was noticed that in one part of the garden there was one plot which bore hardly any crop of peas whatever, and there was another plot where the peas grew well, and the boys mixed the soils, and they have got good crops since in both places. They were set to find out the reason, to observe the nitrogen bearing nodules on the roots. Those boys will never forget that practical lesson, because they did the work with their own hands. That is as good secondary education as you can get from any other subject of practical science. It is possible to do as much or more at Te Aute. The objection that may be raised – which has been suggested, in fact – is one with which I have a good deal of sympathy namely, the suggestion whether, if you do that, you can also provide for those who go on to the University, or who wish to become professional men. I may say at once that you must provide for those students as well as for the others. It is absolutely essential that if you are going to move a race or move a community, you should make it move altogether. Any change you may make must begin in the primary schools – in the Maori village schools it must go on to the secondary schools and to the University; or else one part of the community will find itself out of sympathy with the other part of the community, and a lot of your work will be wasted. Now, what is the proportion of the people in this colony who go or are likely to go to the University? It is nothing like 2 per cent.; probably hardly 1 per cent. You must take those of the university age, and see how many there are at the University out of all those of that age in the colony at that particular time, and if you do so you will find the proportion to be 1 or 2 per cent. The number at the secondary schools a few years ago was only about 6 per cent. Now the number is considerably larger, because they are giving free places in these schools. It is safe to say that not 5 per cent. of these secondary-school pupils go to the University. Even if the State pays the fees the parents cannot go Without the wages of their sons and daughters; so we must look out to see that the boys who are sent on to the University – even if the State is providing the means are really the most fit students. We must select them sooner or later, or the competition of life will do it. What we have to do for Europeans we may just as well do for the Mamie – namely, select the most fit students; and in selecting them we may select a few more than may be deemed necessary, because we do not want to miss a genius. We shall have to select Maori students to be treated at the University in the same way as European students who have to be sent to European secondary schools. You will never be able to do that from this one institution unless you increase the endowments three or four fold. Supposing there is a certain amount set apart out of the endowments for Hukarere and a certain amount for To Aute – we will say that the annual income amounts to £2,500 in all – the net total is hardly as much as that now I understand: you could not thoroughly equip two boarding – schools in such a way as at the same time to treat the students properly who are going on to the University, and to treat the others properly too. I think the way to make separate provision for those who are fit for the University is to send them to the same secondary schools as European students. You can select them at the age of fourteen – that is, the students who are likely to be most successful – otherwise you get an unnecessary overlapping. If you do that it will leave the whole of the funds at Te Aute free for what you can accomplish there. These are the general lines which I thought it desirable to indicate to the Commission – the fundamental principles which underlie this question, and the answers I may give to any questions put to me will be based upon these fundamental ideas. If you are going to send certain students on to the University you must have the same standard for Maoris as for Europeans in the Matriculation Examination. There is one thing I should like to say here, as to the supposed objection on the part of some of the Maori people to technical training, on the ground that manual labour is lacking in dignity. I think that one of the things that is a most important part of our education is to make people recognise the dignity of manual labour. This applies to the European as well as to the Maori. Manual labour can be just as honourable as any other labour; if it is infused with intelligent manhood, if it is done so as to develop the individual, morally and intellectually, it is just as honourable as any other kind of labour.
94. You are of opinion that Te Aute should not henceforth be a secondary school? – No; I still call it a secondary school. I think the subjects should be treated in a secondary manner. It is a secondary school at which there is not much use in teaching Latin, because English would take its place. I would not take away the secondary education from Maoris who do not go to the University. English can be treated as a secondary subject just as much as Latin.
95. You want to draft off the best boys from Te Aute to English secondary schools – that is the policy you wish to lay down? – Yes. What I would do is this: some of them you can select with safety before they go to Te Aute. Other boys cannot be picked out quite so early, but they can be picked out at Te Aute and transferred to other schools.
96. Would you apply exactly the same system in regard to European schools? – Yes; we are getting towards that now. To put a European boy in the same position as a Maori boy you must make him learn a foreign language.
97. Have you placed your views before the Te Aute School authorities? – Yes, in a suggestive
G. HOGBEN.] 85 G. – 5.
way. We have been suggesting a little every year. We prefer to convert them to our views rather than to dictate. That is our policy; we have been putting forward our views with a little more insistence every year, and this year we have gone so far as to say what we think should be taught to the Government scholars – those are really the only ones we have a right to speak about. We have indicated, in more or less polite terms, that we think the time has come for a radical change.
98. Have the authorities at Te Aute expressed any disinclination to fall in with your views? – I could not say that they were converted to our views. They have not finally replied to our last letter, and we do not know exactly how far they are prepared to go. As soon as it was known that this Commission was to be set up the matter was left in abeyance. They have shown a disposition to come some way towards adopting our suggestions. For instance, as regards woodwork for our own scholars, they are willing to give four hours a week, which is what we ask, – but for the rest of the boys I think they propose only two hours and a half a week. They did not want to give up Latin. They wanted to keep the College like an old English grammar school. They thought it was the only place where Maori boys could be thoroughly trained. I am just as keen that the Maori boy should receive that real training that English boys will get in public schools in the future; but to think that that training cannot be given without Latin is one of those superstitions that is dying very hard, but it is nearly dead. It will be dead in a few years.
99. Do you think that the system of education in the school and all similar schools should be under the control of the Education Department? – I am not quite so sure of that. I think that it is just as well as far as regards control that there should be separate bodies. I believe in separate local boards from the primary education right up to the top. I do not believe in the whole thing being centralised. I think, moreover, it should be under the inspection of the Central Department. I am of opinion also that a certain amount of choice even with regard to education should be left to the trustees or governors.
100. You do not suggest that there should be legislation compelling them to conduct their school according to the views of the Education Department? – No. The Secondary Schools Act recognised the independence of secondary schools, but it said there must be a scheme approved by the Minister, and if the scheme were not approved of by the Minister the matter was to be referred to a Commission of three, consisting of one person appointed by the governing body, the Inspector- General of Schools, who is supposed to represent the Government and the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand; and they are to draw up some scheme, and when that is placed before the Minister it becomes the scheme for the management of the school. I think a similar arrangement might be made in regard to Te Aute, the final decision resting with a commission of three – one person appointed by each side, and an independent person appointed from outside.
101. They should be men who are practically experts? – Yes.
102. You are an expert, no doubt? – I count myself as an expert. At lease I have been nearly forty years learning my business, since I left school.
FRIDAY, 1st JUNE, 1906.
GEORGE HOGBEN further examined.
1. The Chairman.] Before we continue our examination, is there anything you would like to add to your statement of yesterday? – There is one point I should like to extend a little, so as to give a practical issue to what I said yesterday in regard to training in farming. The modification of the syllabus that I suggested – namely, the practical syllabus set out for the Civil Service Junior Examination would occupy about two years if you gave four hours a week to it. It could be thoroughly well done by a Maori boy who had passed the Sixth Standard in two years, and he could do nearly every part of it. That would include ordinary agriculture, the elements of dairy-work, fruit-growing, and the farming that involves the growing of fodder plants for dairying. In other words, he would be pretty well equipped in regard to preliminary training. A good number of the boys stay three years, and I think very definite and useful work could be done in the three years. For the boys who had the first two years’ work to do you would want not more than 4 acres altogether. You do not want the plots to be too large. Each plot must be such that not too much time is occupied in cultivating it. The boys should work just for the sake of the knowledge they are getting, and for no other purpose. The 4 acres would be ample for the whole of them for the first two years’ work. You could do with less, but I should recommend about 4 acres, calculating that there are eighty boys in the school. But for the third year I should recommend something more extended. I should recommend that for them there be kept a larger area – 50 acres might be enough, but 100 acres would be better – as an experimental farm, which those in the first and second years could see in operation, but which those in the third year could work. They would therefore be extending their knowledge of elementary agriculture into actual practice; they would be actually farming. We know that twenty or thirty boys could not farm on four acres, but they could actually farm on 100 acres – that is, in the third year. These 100 acres could be divided into four portions, and they would work those four portions exactly as they would work their own farms. It would be a very valuable year indeed. The Commission will understand in a general way what I mean without further explanation. The same would be true of carpentry. Two years would make an extremely good course for a boy at carpentry, leaving out the highly technical things – I mean stair-casing, highly finished inside work, and so on, which it is not necessary to teach at Te Aute at all. They could not expect to do such work, and would not want to. But leaving that out, you could give a very good two years’ course of instruction in carpentry. We know that apprentices in workshops have to do other work for their masters which calls them away from the actual instruction, so that they do not get four hours a week of instruction. If you get four hours a week
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devoted to practical instruction you may have a very good course; you have sufficient, with some direction, to be able to erect, we will say, ordinary two- and four – roomed cottages. We know that can be done, because boys turned out from some of the village schools that have technical schools attached to them have been able to do as much with the same amount of instruction. But to make the instruction most useful to the Maori I would take it a little further in the third year, and I would make them do what has been done in technical schools in different parts of the colony: if there is not work to be done on the estate to give them practice, I would make each of them draw up plans and specifications, under instruction, for a model cottage, work the whole thing out, and construct the whole thing in miniature. It would require the same kind of work as, but would be a little more difficult, than the complete work. They should draw up plans and specifications for their own guidance, and work from them. It need not always be a cottage, but might be any other model structure large enough to show the different kinds of work. That is to say, the joints and every detail should be of the same description and large enough to enable the pupils to see how they are to work from their plans and drawings. That would give them the same kind of practical work in carpentry as they would get in farming in the course I have suggested for the third year. I think it desirable I should state this in order to make it quite clear what I meant by technical instruction. In the ordinary secondary school we give manual instruction to train their hands only as part of their general education. These boys at Te Aute, if they do not get technical instruction at the school, have very little chance of getting it when they go away. They live mostly in scattered districts where there are no technical classes, so we must go further in their case than in the case of ordinary secondary schools, and give them distinct- technical instruction. There is one other point I might allude to, and that is the question as to whether we should have Maoris only at Te Aute, or whether it is advisable in the interests of Europeans and Maoris to extend the operations of the trust to what seemed to be contemplated by two of the grants – that is to say, to Europeans. The trust is similar to a good many other trusts in New Zealand; it is partly for the benefit of Maoris and party for Europeans, and it is not expedient, in my opinion, that all these trusts should be worked in exactly the same way. There would be too many on the one line if they were all worked in the same way. I think it is highly desirable, as a matter of practice, whatever the Commission may hold as to law, that the great bulk of the pupils at Te Aute should always be Maoris. I think that if there were a certain number of places reserved for Maoris there would be no harm, but rather good, if the remainder of the places were open to Europeans who wanted to do the same kind of work. I hold that intercourse between Maoris and Europeans is good both for Maori and European so long as it is of a kind that they would get in such a well-conducted school as Te Aute has been, quite apart from the programme of work. The influence would be good, and they would help one another in the speaking of English. I do not think it is desirable that it should be thrown so open to Europeans that it would alter, as you must alter, the character of the teaching. The character of the teaching should be framed for the Maoris that need that kind of education. If Europeans need the same kind of education, and there are spare places, I suggest to the Commission that it might be all right to admit them. But if you admit a great number of Europeans you must alter your programme to suit your pupils. It does not .matter what theoretical ideas you lay down, you cannot neglect the interests of the pupils you actually have in the school. Therefore, if you admitted a very large number you would alter the character of the school. That is just the opinion I would wish respectfully to suggest as the opinion I have formed, that it would be a mistake to alter the school in such a way that it ceased to be a Maori school in actual fact.
2. Do you think it would be better to have it entirely a Maori school, making it the secondary Maori school for the colony? – I do not see any harm in that whatever, but if it is thought expedient to admit a certain number of Europeans, I would say name the number of Maoris who must be there before you admit any Europeans.
3. What percentage of Europeans would you admit? – I would not put it in that way. I would rather say that if we find we need secondary education of this kind for one hundred Maoris in the colony – that is to say, if you can supply thirty to forty a year from the village schools who have passed the Fifth and Sixth Standards – I would not go any lower just at present, so as to have one hundred boys at Te Aute – I should say if this is the number we want to make provision for, we should not admit any Europeans until there are one hundred. Maoris at the school. Of course, you will name the qualifications at which Europeans will be admitted to begin the course at Te Aute.
4. Supposing there are fifty Maoris at Te Aute, and the full complement is one hundred, would you admit fifty Europeans to fill the vacancies? – No; I would not. If you admit fifty Europeans you are bound to keep them for two or three years. If there are one hundred Maoris generally, and only fifty in attendance at any one time, I would admit about one-third of the fifty, say, sixteen Europeans. However, it would be easy to frame a rule to meet such a case.
5. Then the school would not be running its full complement? – But if you took in fifty Europeans you would fill it for the next two or three years.
6. That is the difficulty? – Then only admit the number I suggest, presuming that in the next two or three years the full number of Maoris will apply. Then you will have room for them when the time comes. That is to say, if you assume the Europeans will stay three years only, admit a third of the number of Europeans who will fill it up. If there are fifty Maoris in the school, and we assume they stay three years – I recommend a three years’ course – and you find fifty places to spare, you admit- a third of the number of Europeans, making sixty-six in attendance. The next year there will be some more Maoris ready to come in. Well, a third of the fifty Maoris will go out, and that will leave you again with fifty in the next year, so you will not be shutting any Maoris out.
7. However, I understand from you, you would not absolutely object to that school being purely and simply a secondary school for the Maoris of New Zealand? – No: I would not at all. I see no objection in practice.
G. HOGBEN.] 87 G. – 5.
8. Now, the Te Aute school and similar schools have not been brought under the Secondary School Act of 1903: Was that Act framed during your term of office? – Yes.
9. Do you know why they were left out? – They were left out because they are not endowed secondary schools within the definition laid down. They are not directly subject to inspection. They are only incidentally subject to inspection. For instance, Te Aute is subject to inspection as far as regards Government scholars, but not otherwise. We inspect them by courtesy of the authorities. They are very anxious we should inspect them. It is the same with Wanganui. I go to Wanganui, but Wanganui is left out of the Secondary Schools Act.
10 . The Secondary Schools Act was repealed by “The Education Act, 1904,” but it is incorporated in it: I understand from you that the Department wishes to bring these schools into line? – I think as far as possible. I am not exactly speaking with the authority of the Minister when I say that. I am speaking my own individual opinion.
11. You think it would be better to bring them into line with the general scheme of education in the colony? – Only into line with the general education scheme of the colony: not necessarily into line with regard to management and control.
12. I am referring only to the teaching? – Yes, I do. I think, for instance, in regard to teaching, that the provisions of section either 90 or 91 should apply to them.
13. Do I understand that it is your individual opinion they should be brought into line as regards the teaching? – Yes; there should be a scheme for them as suggested in the sections I have referred to.
14. Do you think it would be desirable to bring these schools under the provisions of section 84 and the subsequent sections of the Education Act, so as to make them secondary schools under the Act, and subject to the Act as to scheme and arbitration in the event of a dispute? – I do not know whether the Legislature would agree to bring them under these sections, because they involve certain grants. Wanganui and all schools under the control of church bodies were cut out.
15. Leaving the control as it is, because I understand you have no desire to oust the trustees in any way, so far as the property vesting in them and the general control of the school, and the financial management are concerned; but do you think that the scheme of education should be subject to the general policy of the Education Department under the Act of 1904? – Yes; that is quite true. I understood you to ask me whether they should be subject to section 84 and subsequent sections, and, of course, section 87 gives grants according to the schedule.
16. I am referring generally to the provisions of the Education Act relating to secondary schools as regards the scheme, and in the event of a dispute, arbitration: is it your opinion that it would be desirable to bring these schools under the Education Act as regards these two points? – Yes. I should modify that section in such a way as to say this: the scheme of instruction should be sent by the trustees, who take the place of governors, for the approval of the Minister. If the Minister approved it, then it would mean that the trustees and the Minister agreed as to the scheme of instruction. If they do not agree I think there should be a Commission. It seems to me that the Commission set up under the Act, not as to the personnel exactly, but as to the general constitution of it, is about as good as you could make it. It was framed in a sort of way on the lines of the Endowed Schools and Charity Commissioners Act of the Old Country, and it gives the power to the governors – in this case the trustees – to nominate one person, and to the Minister to nominate one person, only in this case the person is named – the Inspector-General of Schools, who represents the Department – and a third person who is outside either – in this case the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand for the time being is named. These three shall form a Commission. They draw up a scheme, and their scheme in the case of Great Britain, and somewhat similarly here, as soon as it is published or laid on the table of the House becomes the scheme. I think that would be a very reasonable way.
17. So that if this school had been under this section of the Education Act any dispute between the Department and the trustees as to the scheme of education would have been settled by arbitration in the manner prescribed by the Act? – Yes.
18. You think that is a desirable state of things? – I think it is. There is a representative on each side, and there is an impartial person. I think the Chancellor of the University is a better person, generally speaking, than, say, the Chief Justice, because the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand by virtue of his office is presumed to know something about education.
19. Do you know why these schools have not been brought under section 90? – It is rather hard to go into the mind of the Legislature.
20. When the Secondary Schools Act was drafted, do you know why these schools were left out? – I do not know to what extent. I can go into confidential relations between myself and the Minister. I can give the reason given in the House, and that seems to me to be sufficient to explain the action of the House. It was that they were under denominational control, and the House of Representatives declined to discuss anything that would put schools under denominational control in the position of receiving grants under section 87.
21. Have you or your Department any complaint to make about the trustees with respect to their management of the estate, in regard to leasing, and so forth – I mean outside the question of teaching? – I do not think the Department has really officially any knowledge of the management. I think it is a weak point that it has not. The Wanganui and other trusts send every year to the Department a full statement of their receipts and expenditure in the same way as the secondary schools under the Act send theirs. So in the case of Wanganui we know exactly what funds they have and how they dispose of them. That seems to me a businesslike way of managing the trust. There is no supposition in the minds of any person in the Department that the estate at Te Aute has not been managed otherwise than for the benefit of the trust and the objects of the trust; but I cannot help feeling that the procedure has not been exactly businesslike. Considering it has a Crown grant, there should be an annual publication of accounts, and all the business should be managed in a public way customary to public bodies.
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22. Are you aware that the accounts are furnished annually to the Waiapu Diocesan Synod, and also triennially to the General Synod? – I am aware of that, but I do not call that publication for the purpose I mean. It is a publication to the members of the Synod, and I want a publication to the people of New Zealand, who gave the Crown grant. The accounts should be audited by a public auditor of some kind, and they should be published in a form that will show the same kind of facts that are shown by secondary schools.
23. Do you know that in the early days particulars were laid on the table of the Upper House? – Yes. I do not think much of those accounts. They were not complete accounts.
24. Is it your opinion that the Te Aute and other similar schools should be compelled to file full, true, and particular account of their receipts and expenditure? – I think they should be forwarded to the Minister in the same way as the others, to be laid on the table of the House. The Minister has to lay them on the table of the House.
25. You suggest that the accounts should be audited by a Government auditor, or by an auditor to be approved by the Department? – I think if the Government auditor could do it that would be best. Otherwise it ought to be an auditor approved by the Minister.
26. Now, there is a recital in our Commission in these words: “Whereas it is alleged that the lands have not been let by public tender or otherwise to the best advantage.” It is admitted they were not let by public tender, but does your Department allege that the lands were not let to the best advantage? – No.
27. Do you know who does so allege? – It was set forth, I understand, as an indication of the scope of the inquiry, but not as an allegation from the Department. We have no knowledge.
28. Well, it has not been alleged then that the lands have not been let to the best advantage? – Not by the Department.
29. Do you know who has alleged it? – No; I have no knowledge of that.
30. We exhausted at Napier all the evidence we could get on the question of the bona fides of the trustees and the adequacy of the rent which is being paid, and we could not find anybody who is prepared to say that the lease was not a proper lease? – Then probably the Commissioners have succeeded in resolving the inquiry.
31. Mr. Lee.] Might I ask you whether in this scheme you have taken into account the difference of faculty in boys and the difference also of environment in boys – that is to say, one boy might wish to go into the Civil Service rather than take up agricultural pursuits, and another boy might wish to take up engineering or mechanical work. Do you differentiate in any sort of way, or do you rather specialise as to any divergence from the scheme you have suggested? – As far as difference of faculty and difference of environment are concerned, that rather assumes if you teach elementary agriculture, you are at once and immediately specialising. It does not follow. If a boy has been living in the country the best subject on which you can train his mind scientifically is a subject connected with the life he has seen around him since he has been observant at all. So the very best subject from the point of view of general education for a boy who is living in the country is a subject that is connected with country life – that is, for the purposes of general education. You can give just as good scientific training; you can train the observation just as well, and you can train the reasoning just as well – the connecting together of facts that have been observed and the forming of general principles from these facts – just as well from agriculture as you can, to quote an example of yesterday, from electricity. They both deal with facts of nature. A boy is taught by his own observation, by his own work, by his own hands to observe the facts, so that up to a certain point the work is just as good as any other branch of science for general education; and for a country boy it is generally best – in fact, I would make it a rule of education in the beginning, whatever you do afterwards, to teach him scientific method through a subject that pertains to the life he has lived. If you do not, you take him from the known to the unknown right away. Whether you intend to make him a professor or not, you must start at the beginning. Therefore it is essential you must train every boy in a science somewhat cognate to the life he is acquainted with. Most Maori boys come from the country. Nature has been around them ever since they could think at all, and it is not unnatural you should take that as a subject of their general education, and give them, through it, the scientific training they want. So I should not call it specialising to teach them agriculture. You could make it really secondary work. Secondary work does not really depend on the subject, but on the method, on the development of thought, and you can make this just as much a secondary subject as if you take up chemistry or electricity, or some other science. Then, take the difference of faculty. Well, the general education we give to boys is a kind of rough approximation to what the average boy can do. We have to teach boys in large numbers, and we cannot take quite the same notice of individual faculty as if we took the boys separately. We gain something by taking them in large numbers, and we lose something. We generally think that by taking them in moderate numbers we gain more than we lose. You cannot give quite the same attention to individual faculty, but when that difference of faculty reaches the stage that they have to choose a profession, then comes the time for specialisation. Well, supposing the boy wished to go into the Civil Service, the course I have sketched out at Te Aute would enable him thoroughly well to take up the course for the Civil Service Junior Examination. For that examination he has to take five or more subjects. He must take English and arithmetic. Well. I have said that every boy at Te Aute should take English and arithmetic. Then he must take one subject from this group: Geography, elementary mechanics, heat and light, magnetism and electricity, elementary chemistry, elementary geology, elementary botany, elementary zoology, elementary physiology, elementary physical measurements, elementary practical agriculture. Well, that provides that he can take elementary practical agriculture. Well, he can also take two or three of these other subjects: Elementary mathematics, Greek, Latin, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Maori, English history, shorthand, book-keeping and commercial correspondence, drawing. Now, an exceedingly good group for a Maori boy to take at Te Aute which would give him a thorough good
G. HOGBEN.] 89 G. – 5.
chance – just as good a chance as anybody in the colony if he were as good in intellectual ability – would be to take English, arithmetic, elementary practical agriculture, and two or three of these three subjects – Maori, book-keeping, and drawing. Let him take drawing – that is, practical – because he has the chance of several branches, and can take the practical of drawing if he does not want to take the art side. So you have there, without altering the programme at all, a means of getting into the Civil Service. Well, if you wanted him to take up engineering, you ought to fit him for it. Engineering is a distinctly high profession, requiring a specific training in mathematics, mechanics, and other branches of science. It is very difficult, and involves very severe study to become a qualified engineer; and this boy who shows distinctly engineering abilities will not be unfitted because the instruction he has received in woodwork there will be exactly on the line he will want, and the science he will have taken up in agriculture will have begun the training of his reasoning powers. But he is one of the boys who ought to be transferred to an ordinary secondary school. I think I could show that you are not interfering by that method with the boy’s career at all. You see there are a good many things people call specialising. They talk of specialising in science. You must give every boy as a part of his general education a training in science, and almost any science is as good as any other. The best sciences are the ones nearest to the facts of life. Agriculture is one of those nearest to the facts; physics is one of those nearest to the facts, and the best training in science would be given by physics or agriculture, which are the nearest to the facts of life. Language is a means of expression, and you can give just as good secondary language education by the English language as you could by any other language, using it as a means of expression of thought.
32. I think what you have said clears the ground for us very considerably, because it will be seen from that that the scheme as to agriculture and technical education is adapted, at any rate, for a very large proportion of the students? – Yes.
33. As to the equipment of the school, one notices that the school is not now up to date either in its accommodation, in its furniture, in its laboratory-appliances, and so on, and I think from what you know of Mr. Thornton and the Archdeacon they desire in every way to be advised by the Department as to what their school should be? – I can indicate pretty well what they need.
34. Would the Department be prepared to advise them on these matters? – Yes. The Department has not only given them advice, but has tried to persuade them to follow that advice during the last few years, and the Department has offered to give them money to do it.
35. May I ask whether the Department would be in a position to help them in finding money? – Well, it depends. There is an outstanding offer – and it is still open to them – as regards woodwork. The Minister has authorised an offer to them of certain money, which I think will be quite sufficient to pay for most of the woodwork. I think it would pay for five – sixths of the cost of the woodwork instruction, provided they used the boys to do the work, as is done at St. Stephen’s. And in the case of agriculture, while I cannot commit the Minister, he has every sympathy with the idea; but I cannot say whether or not a grant would be forthcoming. That could be done gradually. No grant is given to St. Stephen’s for agriculture. St. Stephen’s has not gone very far. It has begun on the right lines. It has done the least expensive part first. You want a laboratory, you want an experimental greenhouse, and you want plots. You can dig the plots, and that practically costs nothing except labour. As for the seeds, you can generally get them as a gift from the merchants if you go the right way about it. There is no doubt the seed would not cost very much.
36. The Chairman.] To sum the matter up, what you say is that it is the desire of the Department to help the trustees by advising them not only as, to the system of education, but also in regard to other matters connected with the school? – Yes.
37. But you cannot give any definite promise in regard to financial help? – No; except in regard to the woodwork, as to which offer is still open.
38. Mr. Lee.] May I ask you if this school is established as a secondary school for the Maoris of New Zealand, and technical agriculture is taken largely as the basis of their work, what would be the aim of the school as to attainments – for instance would the school work up for any diploma, or should it prepare for any university examinations? – I am sorry to say that the whole educational world still has “examinations on the brain.” Examinations are not education. They are convenient sometimes, and sometimes they are inconvenient. They are a means of testing education.
39. That is the point of my question: whether it is worth while working up to examinations? – Not generally. It is well recognised now in England that the more you do away with examination, and the more you have a real efficient and helpful inspection the better it is for education. In Germany that is the fact altogether. People are still asking for examinations in England, but the whole present tendency is more real inspection and less examination. So at Te Aute I would not let them have the old plan. I would let them have the new – not too much examination. I would give examination for those who require it as an entrance to a profession or anything of that kind.
40. Who do you think should lay down the programme of work? – The standard would be set forth in the scheme arrived at, I suggest, by agreement between the Department and the school.
41. It would, I understand, include scientific teaching? – Oh, yes. The teaching should be secondary in character.
42. Mr. Hogg.] Have you had any complaints from the Maoris or others with regard to the conduct of the school, the education that is taught there, the nature of the accommodation, or the quality or quantity of food, or anything of that sort? – I have had matters brought before me personally, but I have had no complaints officially. It is some years ago that I went round thirty or forty of the Government Maori schools with Mr. Pope. I had a good many conversations with representative Maoris, and in some cases I held meetings at which the Maoris were invited to speak their minds. In some cases they gave expression to their opinion in regard to the boys at Te Aute, but there were not very many opinions as to the character of the teaching. In two cases only was
12 – G. 5.
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a reference made to the character of the teaching. One man distinctly asked me what was the good of teaching his boy algebra. I do not know whether he mentioned Latin; but I brought away in my mind the idea that he meant the whole of these things. He distinctly said he would like his boy to learn woodwork. He said, so far as I recollect, “What will make us better here is to have our boys come back and be able to show us how to build better houses. If we do not live in better houses we shall never be better than we are now.”
43. What was brought before you was more in the nature of suggestions as to improvements than anything in the nature of complaints? – Yes.
44. Have they complained about the food the boys received? – No, I do not think they have any grounds for complaint in regard to food.
45. Now, in the case of a large boarding-school like this, inspected by your Department, is attention devoted to the dietary scale, and is that produced? – The last time I was there I asked them if they had a dietary scale. They had a dietary scale apparently in a way, but they could not show it to me in the same way as I could see one if I went to an industrial school. I saw the boys at their meals, and saw the amount of food that was consumed during the week, and I tested one or two items. We know what quantities are required for proper sustenance, and the quantities provided seemed quite sufficient.
46. The Chairman.] The appearance of the boys is the best criterion? – Yes; that is the great thing. I think. I have been accustomed to boys so much, and have examined for that purpose so often, that I should soon notice if they were not properly fed.
47. Mr. Hogg.] Are you aware if any boys have been withdrawn from that school because their health has suffered on account of improper or insufficient food? – I do not know of any such case.
48. I presume the chief aim of the Native Schools Department is to give the boys and girls a sound English education? – That is one of the essentials.
49. Do they pass any examination before they leave the school to show that they are thoroughly versed in the English language, and able to read and write it? – We examine them every year.
50. Are you aware whether many of them are able afterwards to converse fluently and fairly in English? – Yes; there are a great many.
51. Can you explain how it is that some of these Te Aute boys who have been through the College are not able to give evidence, for instance, without the aid of an interpreter? – You mean they did not; they were able to do so all the same.
52. Who is to tell that when they profess they are not able to? – You mentioned the name of one who was not able to – Mr. Tomoana. He speaks English as well as any Englishman, but he sometimes does not think it expedient he should do it. Mr. Hone Heke speaks in the House with an interpreter sometimes, and there is no better English speaker in New Zealand.
53. But is any pains taken to ascertain whether these boys generally are able to speak English? – In travelling about the colony I frequently meet Te Aute and St. Stephen’s boys, and it is very rarely that I find they cannot talk thoroughly well in English.
54. Then, it is a most singular thing, because I could name boys in Masterton who have been through Te Aute who have great difficulty in speaking English? – Some of them will go back. I met a Frenchman some years ago who had lived until he was thirty or forty years old in France, and afterwards had lived in that part of New Zealand I was in, and he was asked to interpret for two French sailors left behind from their steamer; he could not understand them, and they could not understand him; but I would not say he had not been thoroughly taught French when a boy. It depends on the practice you have. Of course, English is a foreign language to the Maoris. There are a good many reasons why they should choose to speak in Maori. Their thoughts run more easily in their mother-tongue.
55. You are dealing now with exceptional cases. Will you be surprised to learn that some of these Te Aute boys who have received a College education, and who are known intimately to me as men who have been mixing constantly with Europeans, have extreme difficulty in conversing in English? – It is not exceptional cases I was dealing with. We will take French. The number of people who have learned French for five or six years, and then get no practice in the language: take them ten years afterwards, and it is not the exception to find a man who cannot speak French; it is the exception to find a man who can speak French. Well, these people have gone back to speaking Maori after leaving school. They are exactly in the same position as a man who has had not merely a schoolboy knowledge of French, but at one time had a working knowledge of French. Unless they keep the language up they lose it to a certain extent.
56. Do you not think it is a regrettable fact that Maori boys and girls who go to school to be taught English should afterwards forget it? – It is a regrettable fact that a man should ever forget anything he learns, but it is a fact nevertheless.
57. Can you explain how it is that the translation of Maori into English and English into Maori is neglected in these Native schools generally? – And a very proper thing too. It is my strong opinion that it is fundamentally wrong to teach them English through Maori.
58. But do you not think the Maori language has a right to be preserved? – That is a different question. You are asking me now whether we should not teach them English by translating Maori. The way to teach a language is to teach the boy as you teach the child to speak the language of his home.
59. Is it not preferable to teach live languages in this way rather than dead languages: for instance, Latin is translated in our principal schools into English and English into Latin as a mental training? – It is the wrong way to teach it. That is being recognised now, and in certain States of Germany it is absolutely required in teaching Latin that the teacher shall speak Latin. This is beginning to be recognised also in England; all the newest books published for the teaching of Latin have Latin conversations in them to enable the teachers to use that method of teaching Latin, and not the translation method.
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60. But do you not think that the translation of our leading English works – the gems of British literature, poetry, and prose – into the Maori language, and its circulation amongst the Maoris would have a splendid educative effect? – I do not see any object in it.
61. Would it not be a means of intellectual recreation for them? – If you are going to teach them English in order to appreciate English literature, you do not want to translate the English into Maori. Translation may be a very good exercise if you know both languages, but to attempt translation before you know both languages is to attempt what has been attempted, I know, for a good many years, but what is practically impossible.
61A. If the translation of one language into another is going on, is not a knowledge of both languages being imparted at the same time? – Only slightly; the method is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion. I am opposed to that method.
62. Then, you say, you are opposed to such a thing as the Maori boys and Maori girls in our primary Native schools being required to translate from the one language into the other? – Yes, because it is fundamentally wrong, and because you cannot get any decent English so long as you do it in that way.
63. Should it be done in the secondary schools? – Yes, when they know English and Maori well enough.
64. What is the benefit likely to ensue from that? – Well, the benefit is obtained in the extension given to the range of thought by the variation of the modes of expression of thought.
65. You do not think if this system was adopted in the primary schools, and they were taught to translate from one language into the other, that it would give them a much better knowledge than they now acquire of the English language? – No, and we have actual practical evidence to the contrary. The English in the Native village schools is infinitely better than it was when Maori translation was in vogue. In Te Aute itself they have been able to do without two of the lower classes that they had before, because the English of the pupils that come from the primary Village schools is so much better than it used to be when Maori was used.
66. Has the experiment been tried in a practical way? – We have been leaving the Maori out regularly the last five years in order to improve the English. Mr. Pope and Mr. Kirk, before I entered the Department, had that idea, and when I came in with a strong conviction, founded on years of experience, that that was the right way to teach language, we all three worked together.
67. Mr. Pope, who has had a long experience, has expressed the opinion that Maori translation should be taught in the Native schools, and in such schools as Te Aute? – In secondary schools I have said that when the pupils get to the upper classes and get to know both languages they should have it, not as a means of learning English, but as a means of extending their powers of thought.
68. Do you think that the. boys who have been taught at Te Aute in the higher branches of learning when they go back to their kaingas, where these higher branches are of no use to them, have a tendency to forget what they have been taught? – Everybody in the world has a tendency to forget that which he does not use, and the Maoris have the same tendency.
69. And if these boys go on farms, I suppose you will consider a good deal of what they are taught is useless? – I will not say that anything that develops the mind is absolutely useless.
70. But is the time and money devoted to it amply repaid? – No, you may replace it by something more profitable; but it is not necessarily useless.
71. I understand you would like to eliminate certain subjects, such as Latin and Euclid and algebra? – Yes, because I could do better work in the time; but not because they are absolutely useless.
72. Have you at any time suggested to the trustees of the Te Aute College that there ought to be such a thing as a science-room attached to the institution? – Yes, but they said they could not- afford it.
73. Then, do you think instruction in science and physics would be preferable to some of the instruction given now? – I do not think instruction in physics particularly suits them. I substitute practical agriculture for physics. A certain amount of physics comes into practical agriculture, but to take up physics specifically would not suit them. It is not in such immediate relation to their past and future life as practical agriculture.
74. Have you considered what the physical effect on Maori boys is likely to be if they are applied to sedentary work rather than out-door occupations? – Well, that is a very large question. I have thought a good deal about it. I do not think, supposing an individual boy has had the kind of preliminary training that would suit him for sedentary work, that the evidence goes to show that the race habit would make him unfit for it. If the individual boy has had the training in the home-life that would suit him for sedentary occupation, I do not think there is anything inherent in the Maori, or in any other race, to make that particularly unsuitable for him afterwards any more than for Europeans.
75. The Chairman.] In your opinion, should parents have any say as to what their children are to be taught in these schools, or should it be left entirely to the authorities? – In the primary stage, no. You could not work such diverse programmes as would be involved in a primary school. I think the programme should be drawn up in each primary school as will suit the conditions of the majority of the children.
76. In your opinion, is too much time taken up in schools generally in New Zealand in athletics? – No, I do not think there is.
77. You think it is desirable to attend to the body as well as to the mind? – I think there are some portions of physical training which should receive more attention. I think there should be a medical examination of every boy in every school.
78. Do you not think that boys and girls should be subjected to examination with respect especially to their teeth, for instance? – A good deal of emphasis is being put on the teeth now.
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I think the eye, the ear, and the throat are more important, because the teeth give a warning at a pretty early stage if anything is wrong. But there may be cases where children have defective hearing or weak eye sight, and those children may be regarded as stupid, whereas they may not have heard the questions asked them, or not be able to see the blackboard.
79. Mr. Eliott.] You submitted a programme yesterday. Is that programme, so far as applicable, carried out in the Native schools? – I sketched out a programme for secondary schools.
80. Are the beginnings being taught in the Native schools now so as to lead the pupils up to this? – Yes.
81. Have you ever heard of any objection to Te Aute boys on account of their religion – any objection to admitting boys to Te Aute? – There have been religious difficulties in connection with boys who have been candidates – that is, Government scholars – because they were not members of the Church of England. Of course, To Aute has a Church of England foundation.
82. Mr. Ngata.] Was the difficulty raised by the Te Aute authorities or by the parents? – By the parents, on account of what the Te Aute authorities required of them.
83. Mr. Eliott.] With whom does the Department communicate with respect to Te Aute? – With Mr. Thornton on some matters, and with Archdeacon Williams on other matters as representing the trustees.
84. Does the Department recognise Hukarere as part of the Te Aute trust? – The Department is not fully aware of the extent to which the Hukarere School Act has been availed of. That Act gave power to use some of the funds for Hukarere, but the Department has no official information as to how it has been used.
85. As to the Hukarere School, with whom do you communicate? – With Miss Williams, who is the representative of the trustees.
86. Do you think they want more accommodation at Te Aute? – I doubt whether there is sufficient accommodation. I do not think there is.
87. The present accommodation at Te Aute is sufficient only for seventy-five: could you send more than that? – Yes, we could send more than we do. I do not consider the accommodation is sufficient for seventy-five.
88. Are you aware of the condition of some of the buildings – that there is dry rot in some of them? – That is so.
89. You are paying £20 a year for pupils: they tell us that it costs £25 to keep them? – Surely they can find the other £5 out of the trust.
90. Now, with respect to the donors of the land or their descendants, and their views? – The donors of the land are dead. I do not recognise that the descendants of the donors know any more as to the intentions than we do.
91. The Chairman.] You say that the intentions of the deceased ought to be regulated to the wants of the times? – Yes, you must not have a dead hand on a trust fund. In the year 1857, with a knowledge of the deeds before them, it was deliberately decided by the authorities that the trust was for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand.
92. Mr. Eliott.] Do you consider that a contribution of £20 a year for each boy is sufficient? – I do, in view of the fact that there is a trust. We always expect when there is an endowment that the endowment shall find part of the cost. I think the present arrangements show generosity, if anything, on the part of the Government.
93. Have you ever heard any complaints or objections from parents to the boys being put to manual labour or farming? – No.
94. Mr. Ngata.] The changes that you propose in Te Aute and other Maori high schools, I suppose, have been thought out as part of a general scheme for adapting the system of education to the present needs of the Maori people? – Yes. I should treat the Maori people, in thinking out a scheme, as part of the nation – if I may call it – of New Zealand. The two races are growing up into one civil and social system.
95. I want to locate these schools a little better in your scheme. There are three schools – St Stephen’s, the Three Kings, and Te Aute (I am leaving Otaki out at present). Have you anything to do with the Three Kings? – Practically nothing. It is a trust more like St. Stephen’s; the terms are wider than Te Aute. There are other trusts, but no schools connected with them.
96. It is your idea to run St. Stephen’s and Te Aute on the same lines and up to the same standard? – Pretty well on the same lines. St. Stephen’s might perhaps teach more trades because it is near a large centre where instruction in such subjects can be given, whereas at Te Aute it would be far better to have agricultural instruction. I would give the St. Stephen’s boy the two years’ training in agriculture I have indicated at Te Aute, but he would not be able to get the third year
97. You practically mean raising the standard of both schools, but in the meantime there has been a general rise in the standards of Native schools? – There has been a very perceptible rise.
98. Would you do away with the primary classes in the two schools? – I would not have any teaching below the Fifth Standard at all. I think it is undesirable. You do not want to keep the young Maoris too long away from their own people.
99. Having passed the Fourth Standard in the Native schools the pupils would be ready for admission to both St. Stephen’s and Te Aute, or would you go higher? – I would go higher. You could get quite enough from the Fifth Standard. You do not want to keep the boys too long from their people, but, still, you want to make the secondary education beneficial to them.
100. Take your genius or promising boy in the Native village school – say, in the Fifth or Sixth Standard – would you recommend sending him direct to a grammar school, or would you send him to St Stephen’s or Te Aute for two years first? – If his genius was remarked after passing the Sixth Standard in the village school, and if he was obviously fitted for higher training, and
G. HOGBEN.] 93 G. – 5.
if his parents desired him to go on, I would send him straight away to the higher schools – that is, if I could make satisfactory boarding arrangements for him.
101. What would your ultimate object be in the case of a promising boy of that kind? – If he were a promising boy I should say he should go into the more difficult professions. The most useful to the Maoris would be medicine, with the view of working amongst their own people.
102. In specialising for the position of a medical man, and studying in an institution in England, would the student not get out of touch with the Native people? – That is possible.
103. It would take a Maori a year or more to get into touch with the Maoris again, would it not – Dr. Pomare found that? – That is quite possible. But if you send a boy to the higher schools at once you will make his time as short as possible, and he will come back to his people all the sooner. I recommend it, because he will be a shorter time away from his people.
104. I see that you propose to allow two hours a week for religious instruction? – That is religious instruction as part of the school curriculum. I do not include worship in that time – the morning and evening services.
104 [105]. Have you thought out a scheme of instruction in elementary agriculture – what the cost of it would be – what changes in subjects it would necessitate, and what fresh expenditure to the College? – The College authorities have had our opinion as definitely as it is possible to put it to them, both in respect to agriculture and woodwork. The question has been before the school authorities since 1896.
106. With regard to elementary civics, what does that really mean – geography, civics, and health, four hours? – I have already given a definition of civics. It would require a little modification in the case of the Maori. There is a general definition of civics and history in the public- school syllabus [Exhibit No. 43].
107. This course of elementary agriculture and manual instruction would have to be taken by every boy attending Te Aute College? – Yes, I should say so.
108. Compulsory subjects? – Yes, I should say so. I can see no harm in doing it. There might be a few cases where exceptions could be made; but, generally speaking, I do not think it would be advisable to make exceptions.
109. Eventually, I suppose, it would be possible to establish scholarships in connection with Te Aute, so as to enable the holders of those scholarships to go on, say, to Lincoln College? – Yes. Senior National Scholarships now are tenable at Lincoln, and many Senior Education Board Scholarships are tenable at Lincoln.
110. If the Te Aute Estate were cut up it would produce more revenue and still leave 500 acres for the use of the College? – Eighty pupils do not want 500 acres.
111. The Chairman.] Under the existing lease the trustees have the right to select 100 acres? – That is quite enough.
WILLIAM WATSON BIRD examined.
112. The Chairman.] You are Government Inspector of Native Schools? – Yes.
113. When did you first enter the service as Inspector? – I first entered the service as Organizing Instructor and Practical Teacher of Native Schools in the beginning of 1901. On the appointment of Mr. Kirk as Professor of Biology, Victoria College, and upon his subsequent retirement, I was appointed to the Assistant Inspectorship in 1902. On the retirement of Mr. Pope at the end of 1903 I became Inspector of Native Schools.
114. Your duty is simply to inspect and report? – To inspect and examine, and generally to advise the Department on the condition and working and circumstances in connection with all the Native schools – that is to say, in connection with, during 1905, about 111 institutions, consisting of a hundred Native village schools, five Native mission schools, and six secondary schools. The secondary schools are St. Stephen’s and Te Aute Boys’ Schools, Queen Victoria College, Hukarere, St. Joseph’s, and Turakina Girls’ Schools.
115. Have you a knowledge of the Maori language and character? – I can conduct the business necessary in Maori, and I think I can claim to have a knowledge of the Maori character, as I have been constantly amongst the Natives since my appointment. My district extends from within eight miles from the North Cape to Stewart Island.
116. Will you kindly state to the Commission what is in your mind on the various matters referred to in the Commission? – I began by saying that I was appointed Organizing Instructor of Native Schools in 1901. My duties were twofold. First, as Practical Teacher, to assist wherever I could the teachers in our Native village schools in methods of teaching; and, secondly, as Organizing Instructor, to do what I could to introduce to the Native schools handwork and manual instruction. The scheme of manual and technical instruction was drawn up by the Inspector-General. Since the beginning of 1901 in the Native village schools quite a new feature has been introduced -namely, handwork and manual work of various kinds – and in nearly all the Native schools to-day those occupations which were regarded by the Department as being most suitable for the Maori children are being carried out. The scheme was designed to begin with the training of the hand and eye of the smallest children, and to lead up to manual training of the bigger children, and was directed to the end of making them useful members of Maori society in Maori districts. The final stage of this hand and eye work has been the establishment in Maori schools of workshops. If I may refer to evidence that has been given before this Commission, I would like to say that apparently pari passu with this new feature in Maori schools has begun a desire on the part of the parents for manual and technical instruction, and it is not correct to say now what could have been said twenty or thirty years ago, the old people object to manual work. If, as it has been said, a Maori rangatira comes to a secondary school and finds his child engaged in digging, I think he has a perfect right to object. If you, Mr. Chairman, went to a school and found your child engaged in scrubbing the floor would you not object? But if, on the other
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hand, you were told that this was part of an organized scheme of instruction in domestic economy, and that the instruction was not merely menial work, but organized directly towards a definite end, and was being taken up by your child in common with the other members of the class, and was being taught by a skilled teacher, I think you and most parents would say, “That is all right; that is what I want my child to learn.” I will quote here from a letter addressed by a Maori to the Premier in 1898: “We have seen a report of your speech in the newspapers in which you recommend and advocate that carpentry, &c., should be taught in the Maori schools in this Island. Well, we earnestly trust that you will give effect to such and have our children taught carpentry, so that they may understand how to ‘carpenter.’ ”
117. Was that letter written by him on his own motion? – Yes. I may say there is a Native – school workshop at that place today in which the boys are learning carpentry. Last year, in visiting the various Native schools, I received applications on the ground from the Chairmen, who are generally the leading men of the place, for the establishment of workshops. At five places not only did they ask for the establishment of a workshop, but they agreed to put up the workshop themselves, and they did it I should just like in this connection to quote a letter from the teacher of the Native school at one of these places. The understanding I made with the Maori was that the Government should provide a, teacher and the tools, and I asked him in return that he should provide the workshop. “All the stuff for our ‘shop’ has been prepared out of totara trees in the bush by the boys and friends, and the erection of the shop was useful in teaching the boys the use of tools and the planning of buildings.” I should like to emphasize the fact that last year alone there were five workshops established on what you might call the co-operative principle. I may say it is a good thing to get the Maori to help himself. He will feel far more interest in a thing in which he has had a share than in a thing which is given to him entirely. They recognise this is their workshop, and that they have a perfect right to go there themselves to receive instruction. Now, in that particular place – it is an isolated district near Taupo – they have seen the benefits arising from the instruction given, and the Department has before it now an application from the leading Maori there to establish a general technical college for the use of all the boys in that district. I am to discuss that question on the ground when I go there next month. Then, not only that, but the boys themselves ask for this work, and I have here applications from boys who are now attending Te Aute College – one for admission into the Lincoln Agricultural College – to get agricultural instruction, and one for two boys now at Te Aute for admission as students to one of the Government experimental farms. I can assure the Commission that in every district where the Maoris realise that a workshop can be put up, and will be of benefit to them – in districts such as those connected with the timber trade, especially in the far north and near Taupo, near the Taupo Totara Timber Company’s place – they are willing to put their hands in their own pockets. In one place they went for two days to dig on the gumfields to get the money necessary to put up the workshop. Although yearly many boys qualify for admission to the higher schools, not every boy wishes to prosecute his studies at the higher school. If every boy wished to go to St. Stephen’s or To Aute we could not meet the demand. Year by year the number is growing. We offer at St. Stephen’s thirty places and at Te Aute ten places, making a total of forty. Well, last year I suppose there were about two hundred boys qualified for admission to these schools – that is to say, there were last year two hundred boys who had a right by the regulations to get admission to St. Stephen’s or To Aute. Those boys who do not wish to go to St. Stephen’s or Te Aute may, if they are so inclined and if their teachers or parents can find masters for them, become apprenticed to masters who are willing’ to take boys to learn the trades which the Department has considered advisable for Maori boys to learn. I think it was stated that the idea of this scheme was to fit boys for town life so that they might follow their trades in the towns. That is not correct. The idea was that they should learn only such trades as they might use on their return to the settlement. That is the whole idea of Maori education to fit them for life amongst Maoris. And I think I may say this with confidence, that if we get’ a boy apprenticed, and he learns his trade and afterwards pursues it in a centre such as Wellington or Auckland, from our point of view we could consider him a failure.
118. Why? – Because he is lost to the Maori race. We want to train that boy to be of service to his own people, and not to train him as a unit to live amongst pakehas. In this scheme of apprenticeship we were assisted in the first place by the authorities of St. Stephen’s, Who, indeed, wrote saying that they wished to introduce the teaching of trades into St. Stephen’s.
119. Then, do I understand you do not want to encourage Maori boys to enter into any employment away from their own people? – Personally. I should discourage it.
120. Why? – Because if you take the best Maoris away from their kaingas and put them into the towns, these boys are practically lost to the Maori race. You do not want to train the individual at the expense of the race. What we want to secure is the greatest good for the greatest number. We want to get these boys to show on their return to the Maori settlements the higher ideals of living. If that boy never goes back the special training he has received as a Maori boy has, I consider, failed to achieve its object. He is no better than a pakeha. That is the whole idea I think that underlies the scheme.
121. I understand you are educating Maori boys and Maori girls for the Maori people only, and not to mingle with Europeans and compete with Europeans in trades and commerce? – That is my opinion. I may say that these were the principles approved by the late Hon. Mr. Rolleston when Minister of Education in drawing up the conditions under which Maoris should be admitted into these secondary institutions such as Hukarere, and so intent was he on making them go back that he arranged that they should leave these secondary schools, the boys at fifteen years of age and the girls at sixteen, and go back to their people. As to the Maori girls, you cannot apprentice a girl to a trade, and the only 7 openings we could find for Maori girls are, first, as assistant teachers in our Native schools, and, second, as nurses. The Department, I may say, has consistently
W. W. BIRD.] 95 G. – 5.
refused to recommend any girl for a position as a probationer nurse, unless it has first satisfied itself that that girl intends to practise amongst Maoris, and not amongst Europeans. That same idea applies in the case of boys. I am sure Mr. Pope will support me in this contention.
122. Suppose a Maori girl makes a first-class nurse, and she wants to go to a European hospital, you will not allow her to go? – Not if we can help it. I may say she is trained first of all in a hospital, and I would not object to her remaining in the hospital so long as there was no work for her to do outside amongst her own people; but I know to my own knowledge that that time has not come. There is a great field for Maori nurses as fast as we can train them. I repeat that if a Maori girl were trained as a nurse and deliberately turned her back on the Maoris, I should consider her a failure from our point of view, no matter if she made a name for herself as a nurse second to none in New Zealand.
123. You would not encourage European nurses to go amongst Maoris if they chose to go? – I would not object to that at all.
124. Would they not be lost to the European? – It would be a gain to the Maoris possibly. We have asked the hospital authorities to admit these girls to be trained on the understanding that they are to be trained for work in Maori centres, and we are particular about choosing these girls so as to make sure they come from pure Maori centres, and centres remote from other medical aid.
125. I suppose the general tendency is to go back to their own people? – That is where I am afraid of the ultimate success of the nursing-scholarship scheme. I hope by the time these nurses are ready we shall be able to find places for them in the cottage hospitals in Maori districts. So long as the girl has a salary, and so long as she knows she has a position to go back to, she will not hesitate to go back. Now, as I have said, you will find that the majority of the boys who have qualified do not proceed to these higher schools. Some of them find occupations at home, and others, if there is a manual school attached to their day school, get quite sufficient manual instruction there to satisfy them. I know that from my own experience. With regard to the question of technical instruction at Te Aute, I should like to say there was, it is true, a certain amount of technical instruction given there. It amounted to about twenty-six lessons in the year, three hours a week being given. Two carpentry lessons were given in three weeks. That would make about twenty-six or thirty hours a year. At the present time there is practically none. The workshop and the buildings that were made by the boys under the old scheme have been turned to other uses. As a result of the development of the whole scheme of education it was thought desirable to make a change also in the curriculum at Te Aute. The young Maori’ people know this themselves. They have seen the change coming. Indeed, they quote the proverb, “The old net is laid aside; the new one goes a-fishing.” They apply that to the new ideas in education. At Te Aute lately, when there with the members of the Commission, I noticed in the lowest class of the school three boys who are personally very well known to me, as are also their parents and general circumstances. Last December they were, I suppose, contented and happy enough in their own kaingas – two in the far north and one in the Bay of Plenty. They had never heard of formal grammar, Latin, or algebra, and now that they are face to face with these formidable subjects, formidable to a Maori boy – I am certain their happiness is not quite so manifest. Taking these three boys as typical cases of the Maori boys who go to Te Aute, and knowing their circumstances, I cannot help feeling that it is rather hard on these boys to put them under this car of Jauggernaut [Juggernaut] simply because two or three boys are likely to go up for the Matriculation Examination. You see, it has been held that Te Aute is the only school affording a secondary education for Maori boys who want to get a classical education, and this classical education is to prepare them for the higher walks in life. These words, I think, are quoted from one of the trustees’ letters. These higher walks of life are walks that most Maori boys – I should say ninety-nine out of every hundred- – will never tread. If we take the evidence that has gone before we find that, of the boys who have been trained at Te Aute, there are two lawyers, two doctors, eighteen ministers, it is said, and thirty – six farmers, the latter being in one district only. Surely that shows that the majority of the boys, at any rate, might have done without Latin and these other subjects. And it is hardly true to say that secondary education or a high-school education is afforded to Maori boys only at Te Aute. We have now two Maori boys attending the Auckland Grammar School as holders of scholarships granted to Maori children attending public schools. As it has been said that all attempts to educate boys at the Auckland Grammar School have resulted in failure, I thought it was worth while to write to the headmaster and ask his opinion on the subject.
126. How do you mean “resulted in a failure”? – I am referring to the evidence of Canon MacMurray, who said that one boy he had in his mind was the most complete failure he had ever known, and that generally these attempts had ended in failure, not only in discipline but in general results. Mr. Tibbs, the headmaster, has written me this letter: “Auckland Grammar School, Auckland, 19th May, 1906. – DEAR SIR, – In reply to your telegram, I have to state that, with one exception, there has never been anything to find fault with in the discipline of Maori boys attending the school. The boy who did not satisfy me boarded with a person of no education and of doubtful character, and, though well behaved at the school, was so irregular in attendance that I was compelled to ask the governors of the school to insist on his boarding at St. Stephen’s School or withdrawal. Their work has, up to a certain point, at any rate, been satisfactory, and each boy has generally shown ability in some particular direction – e.g., mechanical drawing. Of their subsequent career I know very little. I have often inquired about them, but have not yet heard that any are engaged in Government or private offices, or are following professions like most of their schoolmates. I am inclined to think that, While the boys have caught something here of the old public-school spirit which we try to cultivate, and have derived benefit from being associated with colonial boys of a good stamp, our curriculum is in some respects far beyond the
G. – 5. 96 [W. W. BIRD.
present needs of the Maori race. – Faithfully yours, J. W. TIBBS, Headmaster – W. W. Bird, Esq., Inspector of Native Schools, Napier.” Of course, as the Inspector-General says, Mr. Tibbs refers not to geniuses, but to the average boy. Now, it has been said too, with regard to these Maori boys who enter for the Matriculation Examination, that they have experienced some difficulty in English, and that, on the other hand, no concession has been made to them on the ground that they were Maori boys. Surely that is an argument why any Maori boy who is going up for matriculation should be placed exactly on the same footing and get the same kind of teaching as European boys attending the high schools and grammar schools. I doubt very much whether it would not be to the advantage of the best Maori boys, who may be selected for training in the higher professions and walks of life, that they should be educated at some place such as the Auckland Grammar School, the Wanganui College, or the Napier High School, because, although excellent work has been done by Mr. Thornton, and our records for twenty-five years will not show one discordant note between the Te Aute authorities and the Department, it seems to me that in a school like Te Aute, with its limited resources, they are unable to pay salaries to masters properly qualified for higher school – work. I am not referring to the headmaster; I refer, of course, to the other members of the staff. I think it would be very much to the interests of those boys who may be selected if they were to be sent to schools where the masters are each specialists in various subjects
127. May we sum up what you have said in this way: you are strongly in favour of the introduction into this school of what we may call “technical education”? – Yes, and I think the Maori boys as a whole support that view. I may claim to know nearly all the Maoris of the Maori centres in New Zealand, and I do not think you will find one who would not be willing to have his son trained in what he calls “mahi a ringaringa.” They know exactly what that means, and the time now is ripe for a change. It is the natural outcome of the new system. I should like to say, if I may, that the change in Hukarere, as Mr. Hogben has stated, has made a great difference in the efficiency of the school. They began there to teach Latin and other subjects, and, at the suggestion of the Department, they withdrew these from the time-table. Since then the English subjects have improved very much, and more time is given to needlework and domestic work of all kinds, and to cooking. So that the girls at Hukarere get a good education in English, and a practical instruction in all those arts which make up the qualities of good wives and mothers. When a Maori girl comes from Hukarere we are always glad, if we can find an opening, to give her a position in our schools as an assistant mistress. One of the best assistant mistresses we have in the whole service is a Hukarere girl, who is teaching with an old St. Stephen’s boy at a school in the far north.
128. Have you any printed regulations with regard to compelling Maori boys or girls to go back to their own people after leaving school? – No.
129. Do they know that is the desire or wish of the Department? – They know that.
130. How is that desire expressed to them? – Well, I suppose it is a matter of precedent with them. They have seen their forebears go and return. There is nothing set out to them plainly.
131. And, in the case of hospital nurses, you say you do not encourage them to go into European institutions? – We do not encourage them to remain.
132. Do you discourage them? – Yes.
133. In what way? – I have never had to do it yet, nor has the Department; but if I met a Maori boy working at his trade in Auckland, I should tell him it was his place to go back to his home and work there as soon as he could. I could not direct him to go, I could only try to persuade him to go.
134. Supposing a Maori-trained nurse wished to go into a European hospital, and she applied to the Hospital and Charitable Aid Board to be admitted, would your Department take any steps to influence the Board in refusing her application if you knew of it? – If it came before me personally, I should explain to the hospital authorities that this girl had received her training and had been assited [assisted] by the Department with the idea that on the completion of her studies she should work amongst the Maoris.
135. Do you make that a condition when she starts her education? – Yes.
136. How is that condition expressed? – It is a matter of faith, which means more to a young Maori than to a European.
137. What steps are taken to prevent Maoris who are fully qualified to take up positions as nurses in European hospitals from doing so? – It is prevented indirectly in this way: in order to get admission for these particular candidates into the hospital, we have had to explain to them the principles of the scheme of education of Maori nurses, and it is made clear to them what the whole intention is.
138. Is that scheme formulated and printed? – No.
139. Has it been approved by the Minister? – Yes.
140. That young Maori girls trained as nurses should not be encouraged to go into European hospitals? – That Maori girls should be trained as nurses for work amongst the Maoris, and the Department in approaching the hospitals has made it clear that these girls should be trained for Maori work. If the hospital people had an idea that the girl afterwards was intended for European work they would refuse her admission.
141. Do you think that is fair? – That is for the hospital authorities to say. I may say that, so far as the scheme has gone, there is only one Maori girl, out of eight or nine, who has gone to work amongst Europeans. She is at the Pahiatua Hospital.
142. How many of these nurses have been assisted by the Government? – Eight. We assist as many as can be taken by the hospitals. Of course, the scheme is only in its experimental stage.
143. Mr. Hogg.] You told us that some of the well-educated Maori girls made very good assistant teachers? – That is so.
W. W. BIRD.] 97 G. – 5.
144. Have any of the well-educated Maori youths been appointed in charge of schools? – At present we have one who was trained at St. Stephen’s. The conditions attached to the appointment of teachers of Native schools would, I think, prevent many of the Te Aute or other boys from applying. The Department’s idea is that the teachers of Native schools shall be married men, because the Native school, being a pioneer school, has to do the work of civilisation, and the Maoris are supposed to see, as far as they can see, a pattern of European family life. If we appointed single men and single girls their interest in the school would begin at 9 and cease at 3. When you have a married man with a family there is a permanency about his appointment, and he has to act practically as the father of the whole settlement. He takes a general interest in the affairs of the kainga, without coming into conflict with the elders. He is supposed to help them in sickness, and to give them whatever assistance he can. So we have always found that a married man and his wife are the best, and the Department has consistently refused to appoint to Native schools unmarried people. In one or two cases where we have not been able to get a good married man we have taken a well-qualified lady teacher, but there is no unmarried man, either Maori or pakeha, appointed to a Native school.
145. Is it not possible to find married men amongst the Maoris to take charge of these Native schools? – As I say, we have only found one so far, and I should be very sorry to part ‘with him. He is a good-living man, he is steady, and he is a conscientious worker, and his school will bear the strictest comparison with any European school in the district. But, I should not, as a general rule, be inclined to recommend the Maori on the ground that the Maoris themselves do not always repose the greatest confidence in a Maori as a teacher of English.
146. Mr. Ngata.] I suppose, too, the elements of tribal prejudice would come in? – That is so. Again, there is not in the Maori character, I have noticed, that constant application that is necessary in teaching, and especially in teaching young Maoris. Again, a life of confinement in a school is not in the best interests of a young Maori.
147. Mr. Hogg.] Do many of the Europeans that are in charge of the Maori schools possess an intimate knowledge of the Maori language? – Most of them do not, I am glad to say.
148. Is it not a disqualification that they know nothing of the Maori language? – It is not.
149. Then, if the experiment should be recommended to translate from one language into the other these teachers would not be competent to carry it out? – If you intend to begin in the preparatory classes I should be very sorry for them. You get a Maori at six years of age, and you are going to teach him English by translation. Take the word “dog” which to him is “kuri.” How far have you advanced by that method? If, on the other hand, you had a dog or a picture of a dog, and you take that boy up and say to him, “That is a dog,” that boy, instead of knowing one single isolated word, has got an English sentence, and you know the unit of language is a sentence and not a word. So long as the Maori boy thinks in Maori he will never speak in English. What we want to do is to get these boys to speak in English right away, and they do it.
150. Am I to understand that, as a result of the education in our Native schools and colleges, none of the boys or girls are supposed to be taught to read their own language? – That is so. We do not consider it necessary to teach a Maori to read Maori. It would be rather like carrying coals to Newcastle.
151. Then, I want to know why should the Government be put to the expense of translating into the Maori language Acts of Parliament and the various notices that appear in the Gazette from time to time with a view to enabling the Maoris to know for themselves exactly what is taking place affecting their own interests, if they are not able to read these documents? – But every Maori can read Maori, because that is his mother-tongue.
152. How can he read Maori if he is not taught Maori in the school? – I am not prepared to speak on his behalf in that respect, but I know he can read it. I know that Maoris who have never been to school can read and write Maori – that is to say, they are self-taught.
153. You say they are not taught to read and write in Maori at school? Well, I want to know whether you can put any reliance, for instance, on petitions that occasionally come before the House bearing the signatures of Maoris, simply because they are written in Maori. Are the Maoris able to read them and to understand them? – Oh, certainly.
154. Where do they gain this education if they are not taught to read and write Maori while at school? – I suppose mother nature has helped them and they help themselves. I know as a fact, however they get their knowledge, that most Maoris now can write Maori. They have picked it up by watching the others.
155. Do you not think it is a sad oversight in connection with the Maori that the means to translate from one language into the other is not taught in our Maori schools? – No. I would say this, further: that in nearly every school I go to, the Committee objects strongly to the children talking Maori, and one man lately gave me as his reason for sending his girl to Victoria College that he wanted her to get away where she would hear nothing but English.
156. When visiting Te Aute, have you observed how the, boys are treated, and how they are fed? – I think they are treated and fed well. You have to know that, as a general rule, Maori boys get- two meals a day – one in the morning and one at sundown. Latterly, owing to famines, these meals have been very scanty, and a boy who is sent from a Maori district to Te Aute College, where he gets plain food and – I think I am justified in saying – plenty of it three times a day, never complains about the food. And when he returns his general appearance shows that, so far as food is concerned, there is nothing to complain about.
157. Have you heard of much sickness there? – No.
158. Have many deaths occurred in your time? – No.
159. Have you heard of boys going home very ill? – I have heard of cases where boys have returned home very ill, and I have known cases where some died.
160. You never heard of numerous instances of this kind in connection with Te Aute College? – I know of three cases within the last three or four years.
13 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 98 [W. W. BIRD.
161. Has there been any explanation of the sickness? – The Maoris give their explanation. They say football caused it.
162. Mr. Lee.] Do you mind telling us from your knowledge what becomes of the two hundred boys who qualify in Standard VI – how many of them really go to Te Aute and St. Stephen’s? – We provide annually thirty places at St. Stephen’s and ten at Te Aute.
163. Is the accommodation at Te Aute and St. Stephen’s sufficient for all who wish to go there? – No, we have more candidates than we have places for.
164. Is it not desirable that the State should provide accommodation for all who wish to take up secondary work: is the present system not unfair to those who cannot get in? – The way in which we get over the difficulty is to make a better selection. We select the most promising boys.
165. Do you think the selection that is made is fair to those who are rejected? – I do not suppose they would regard it as fair, but it is done as impartially as possible.
166. Do you think the remainder of the two hundred who do not go turn out satisfactorily? – I think, on the whole, they do.
167. Do they carry with them a fair knowledge of English? – Yes. Of course, a Maori generally knows more English than you give him credit for.
168. Mr. Elliott.] You told us about the workshops at the village schools: are the teachers there the instructors? – Yes, the teachers who are able to give instruction in woodwork. Some of our teachers are well qualified to do that.
169. So you do not employ a separate instructor? – No. The instruction in woodwork in village schools occupies four hours per week.
170. From your knowledge of the boys at Te Aute, is it held out to them that they must do as the other boys do? – I do not think so, but they do it by imitation.
171. They imitate a Maori boy whose parents can afford to dress him? – Yes. The other boys will write to their parents and ask for the same thing, and Maori parents are very indulgent.
172. They are not encouraged in this by the teaching staff? – No
173. I would like to have your opinion as to whether Te Aute should be kept exclusively for Maoris? – I would say Yes. I would exclude European boys.
174. The Chairman.] With regard to athletics, have you had any complaints made to you by the parents of the boys about any excess of athletics? – Never. I may say I do not think every Maori boy is strong enough in physique to play football.
175. Do you think that before a boy is allowed to play a game like football he should have the sanction of those who are able to judge as to whether he can stand the strain? – I think so very strongly. I think he ought to be medically examined.
176. I take it your opinion is that there is no excess at all in regard to the time occupied at athletics? – That is so.
177. Now, in your travels round Hawke’s Bay in connection with this school, have you ever heard anybody suggest any maladministration on the part of the trustees in their dealings with the property? – Never.
178. Have you heard public opinion expressed on the other side, as to the reasonableness of the action of the trustees in retaining Archdeacon Williams on the property and giving him a lease? – I have never heard any opinion expressed one way or the other.
179. Mr. Ngata.] How long have the nursing scholarships been in existence? – Since 1898.
180. Does the Department assist European girls too? – No. It is a scholarship for Maori girls for a special purpose. It has been extended since 1901, and put on a more thorough footing.
181. The special object being that certain girls amongst the Maori people should be trained adequately in proper institutions to do nursing-work amongst their own people? – Yes. I may say Mr. Pope was the author of the movement as far back as 1898.
182. Do you know anything about the initiation of the University Scholarships? – There are six University Scholarships offered by the Government – three in medicine, three in general subjects. One medical scholarship is being held now at the Otago University. The other two are waiting for Maori boys sufficiently qualified to come forward and claim them. Two scholarships are now being held in law by young Maoris.
183. I understand these scholarships are also given for a special object? – Yes; I think that is understood. Of course, we have no bond.
184. But there is a somewhat similar understanding as in the case of nursing scholarships? – Yes.
185. The Department, I think, makes a point of the medical scholarship, but does not attach the same importance to the legal training? – That is so. We were convinced by the success of one who had a legal training, and then the scheme was extended to include law.
186. The Chairman.] To your knowledge have the boys who have attended Te Aute College received material benefit, and have the Maori people as a whole received material benefit from that institution? – I should say Yes, decidedly.
187. What you say also is that that benefit is capable of improvement by an alteration in the system – by the introduction of manual and technical instruction, and making that instruction a more prominent feature of the school? – Yes.
188. That is practically the only thing the Department is urging for? – That is so.
189. In your discussions with Mr. Thornton in regard to this subject, have you not found him quite willing at all times to fall in with the Department, and to comply with the wishes of the Department as far as possible? – Of course, Mr. Thornton has looked upon it rather from a conservative point of view. He has spent many years and much labour in bringing the school to its present position, and he still clings closely to his scheme.
190. That is to say, he does not want his scheme to be altogether obliterated; but at the same
W. W. BIRD.] 99 G. – 5.
time he does not object to the introduction of manual and technical instruction? – He does not directly object, but the amount he is willing to take is very small.
191. Mr. Ngata.] He is not prepared to forego matriculation subjects? – No.
GEORGE HOGBEN further examined.
192. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to make some further observations? – I wish to say something as to the point in regard to which Mr. Bird was not prepared to set forward the ideas of the Department. He spoke for himself in regard to the return of Maori boys and girls to the Maoris. He expressed his own opinion that they were lost if they did not go back. The nursing question is one phase of the subject, and the most important phase of it. I think as far as I am concerned that opinion needs some qualification. We know the process that has taken place in Canada in the course-of time with the first nation of the Iroquois. That is the most successful Native experiment ever made, and it took a century and a quarter to carry out. You can hardly now distinguish the Iroquois that survive from the rest of the population in Canada, unless you are an ethnologist and distinguish faces. I anticipate that the same thing will happen in New Zealand, and that socially and civilly, if not racially, there will be a merging of the Maori and the pakeha, and I think very likely to the advantage of both. That must take place gradually, so it is inevitable that in the course of the process some of them who are trained will go into towns and will live with Europeans. But if they did that in any large number it would be a loss. It is not our object in training them. Those who are prepared to merge with the European population now can go with Europeans to European schools. Our object in having separate schools is that they may go back to their own people. Now, with regard to boys, certain difficulties do not occur; but with regard to nurses – I do not think one should shrink from stating the real fact the ideas of the relations between the sexes among the Maoris and among the English are to some extent different. You have got to take very great care as to how you allow the women of one race to go among the people of another race where different ideas prevail as to the relations between the sexes, and until the ground is prepared for them you will have danger. That is the fundamental reason why you should not encourage them until you have prepared them by education in every way to fend for themselves. They are quite capable of doing so if prepared for it. I am perfectly convinced of that. We have had plenty of examples of it. Maori girls must enter hospitals in the same way as European nurses do. That is to say, if they were candidates for apprenticeship, and entered hospitals in open competition in the same way as English-speaking nurses do, then, of course, they would be just as free to remain in the hospitals if the hospitals would take them. Our experience has been that they have been rarely taken by the hospitals, because even with all the pledges that we can give we can find up to the present only three or four hospitals willing to take them on such arrangements as can be made possible for them to enter. We have now made arrangements in the most definite form for these Maori girls, and we hope to get an increasing number of hospitals to take them, and also get an increasing number of nurses. There is no legal bond, but the Government gives assistance to them, and in telling them that we will give assistance in sending them to the hospital we put a clause in the letter to the effect that we expect them to go afterwards and work among their own people. There is no other pledge, and no other enforcement than to remind them of that pledge-~and to remind an honourable Maori, and most of them have a high sense of honour in that way – to remind them of a pledge of that kind is quite as good as to remind a European of a bond, and that pledge will be just as effective as a bond. The justification for it is that from the beginning they are getting Government help. By the time they fulfil that pledge we hope that there will be cottage hospitals, and cottage hospitals also among the Maori people in Maori districts, in which we can put, perhaps in the first instance, European and Maori nurses side by side, working amongst their own people, and gradually the Maoris will become more akin to Europeans in their ideas. In that way we shall be helping them by teaching them to help themselves. We begin by taking the probationers to the hospitals – as probationers or day pupils. They will still board, say, at Hukarere, in Napier, or at the Queen Victoria School for Maori girls in Auckland, while they are day pupils at the hospitals. After that they will become resident probationers at the hospitals, and go through the, same course, of instruction as European nurses. Then they will go the maternity homes, whenever possible, in order to qualify as nurses in that department, and thus get certificates for all parts of their work. I hope that by the time they are qualified the cottage homes will be ready for them. I might here throw out a hint about the reading of Maori, because this is a question that has arisen again and again with regard to languages. If anybody has been taught to read in one language and knows the significance of the characters, he has no difficulty in reading in a very short time in those same characters any other language that he can speak. That is a well known fact. It requires no definite teaching as long as the characters are the same. For instance, I spoke what little foreign languages I knew as a boy for a good many years before I ever saw anything of them in writing, and I had no difficulty in reading them because I could read English.
193. Mr. Hogg.] Do you not think it would be a great accomplishment for the Maori to be able to both read and speak fluently the Maori and the English language as well? – When he has learned both, it is a good thing for him to translate from one to the other. If he has learned to read English and can speak Maori, it is not really necessary that he should be taught to read Maori.
194. Are not the Maoris under a great disadvantage in having to employ interpreters when they wish to communicate with the European? – My experience is exactly the opposite.
195. Are you not aware of the fact that there is a great difference in interpreters, and that there are very few really good ones? – I know that.
196. Is that not a thing that ought to be rectified by the Native schools? – No; I do not think the Native schools should be a training-place for interpreters.
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197. Surely they should teach the Maoris to translate Maori into English, and English into Maori? – The Maoris can do that now.
198. It forms no part of the ordinary curriculum of Maori schools? – You do not want to teach a Maori the Maori language. He knows it already. I hold that translation is a fundamentally wrong way in which to teach languages.
199. We have in the case of the Maori a noble race of people: is their literature and language not worth preserving? – That is a different question. The Native schools do not exist to preserve the Maori language. If the schools are to exist to preserve the Maori language you will utterly destroy their usefulness for other purposes.
200. Do you not think it would be well if every Maori was his own interpreter? – So he will be when he gets to know English well enough. The best thing to do is to teach him English in the best method you can. I hope the Maoris will never be taught English by translation, otherwise they will be going back a whole cycle educationally.
201. Speaking from my own observation, you rarely meet a Maori who can talk good, fluent English? – I have met a very large number who can.
MONDAY, 4TH JUNE, 1906.
HARRY BORRER KIRK examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are Professor of Biology, Victoria College, Wellington? – Yes.
2. And before that you were Assistant Inspector of Native Schools? – Yes, for about seventeen years.
3. One of your duties was to visit Te Aute College from time to time? – Yes, occasionally. Perhaps I ought to volunteer a statement. I had other duties to perform in connection with the examination of teachers, and those duties kept me in town at the time Te Aute was generally examined, so that I did not have the opportunity very often of visiting Te Aute.
4. Still, you very often visited the Maori schools and people, and you know a good deal of their habits and customs? – Yes
5. Speaking generally, what system of education is most suitable to the Maori race? – I was scarcely prepared for so big a question, but I think that the village-school system in some form is essential to Maori education, and I think, in addition to that, some schools – not- exactly secondary schools, but schools standing above the primary schools are also necessary.
6. In your opinion, is it not desirable that the Maoris should be taught more manual and technical work in the schools? – Yes, it is undoubtedly my opinion that the Maori should be trained as far as possible so as to be able to use his hands intelligently. I do not think that should go the length of making him an artisan.
7. That applies also to Europeans? – I would carry manual training further with Europeans. With regard to the Maori, it seems to me that if Maori education is to be really successful in a higher sense than producing so many fairly cultured Maoris – if it is to be successful to this extent, that it shall be a chief factor in elevating the Maori race, then it should not go far enough to give the Maori a distaste of kainga life; but it should go far enough to lead him to see that the life of the kainga should be conducted on a somewhat different line than exists at present: that he should do all he can to raise it, but his education should not go so far as to make the society of uncultured people – especially the people of his own race – distasteful to him. It seems to me that the Maori is particularly liable to contract habits about the age of puberty – or, say, from twelve to eighteen years of age, or even somewhat later – which remain with him as life habits much more than is the case with Europeans – habits of thought and habits of life; and that it is much more important “that he should settle down to his life work early than it is in our own case.
8. I suppose you have noted down some points upon which you would like to make a statement to the Commission? – I am sorry to say I have not. It was not until Friday night that I received intimation that my evidence would be required by the Commission, and I have been excessively busy ever since. I did not think that a voluntary statement would be expected from me. I could, of course, state my views on the whole question, but they may be more diffuse than if they were put in writing.
9. We shall be glad to hear your opinions. One of the main points is this: it has been suggested that at Te Aute there should be more industrial training than has been given in the past – that industrial training should be made much more a feature of the College? – I am entirely of that opinion. I know that the method of tuition at Te Aute has been under consideration by the Commission. On that subject I have views. It seems to me that no blame whatever can be attached to the managers of Te Aute for the way in which they have conducted the school, because an experiment had to be made. The limitations of our race in the matter of taking a broad view ‘of educating such a race as the Maori made it necessary for us to arrive at sound conclusions by the process of experiment. I think in the course of that experiment it has become obvious that there are better lines than those on which we ourselves are educated – better lines, at all events, for the Maori – and that the time has now come – perhaps it came some years since – when the course in the Maori secondary schools ought to be amended, not only as to the teaching of the literary subjects, but also as to the instruction to be given to the average Maori; that there should be an increase in the manual work, and in everything that will give the Maori the use of his hands. I am speaking of Te Aute now. My view on that point is that we should give University advantages or secondary-school advantages only to the few among the Maoris – to those coming among us to live as Europeans, and who in that sphere will do more good to their race than if they go back to live in the kainga. But, in the case of the average Maori, his place is amongst his own people;
H. B. KIRK.] 101 G. – 5.
and if we take the more intelligent of these Natives away – if we are constantly taking them away and training them to earn their own living amongst the Europeans, we take from the race its best potential leadership, and we leave the leadership and stimulus to the less well endowed and the less well-trained mentally and, often, morally. It is a thing we should not do with any other stock whatever, because we not only take away their mental and moral influence from their race, but we take them away as men who will help to propogate [propagate] their race. We take them away as Maoris, we take away the influence of the parents, and also the influence of the next generation, which should be important to the Maoris. It seems to me that the policy pursued in the early days of Maori secondary schools was to educate a number of Maoris as Europeans. We now see that that was not the right idea to take.
10. What alterations do you suggest in the methods at Te Aute and other secondary Maori schools? – So far as scholarship methods are concerned?
11. Educational methods generally? – I know that I have stated a different view in some of my earlier reports on Te Aute – that there should be a matriculation class at Te Aute. I think so still; but I would now have the matriculation class or any class doing matriculation work, limited in point of membership to those few Maoris whom it was decided should be educated as far as possible on European lines.
12. To be selected? – Yes. I think the selectors should be the managers of the school so far as dealing with their own scholars is concerned, and it should rest with the Education Department so far as it deals with its own scholars; and the Education Department should have as advisers in selecting the students for the particular class of education the opinion not only of its Inspectors, but also the teachers of the village schools, who knew any particular boy and What his habits and disposition were. When I left the Education Department I think it was the view of all of us – that we should like to see much more instruction given in manual work.
13. What is your opinion about the two races being taught conjointly? – So far as the village schools are concerned, I think it works well. Where the Maori is in a majority. I think where the white children are in a majority – unless it be an overwhelming majority – it does not work well. If there are only a few Maoris in a class of European boys – if the boys are mainly Europeans – the Maori boys get great advantages in hearing English spoken constantly, and they learn the English language in a way they could not otherwise learn it. But if the school is rather more Maori than white, or if it is rather more white than Maori, jealously nearly always arises. The classes, moreover, are not easy to work. The course of teaching in such a school becomes difficult for this reason: that the Maori children of necessity need special attention and explanations which the European children do not need, and that leads to the parents of the European children holding that their children are neglected. But where, on the other hand, .we have the Maoris in a marked ascendency in point of numbers, the results are good, so far as my experience goes. At Te Aute there are some few Europeans. On what footing they are there I do not know; but I always hold that so long as the Europeans in such a school are of a good stamp they do a great deal of good there.
14. You think it would be well to retain To Aute as a secondary school for Maoris, with a strong industrial side in it? – I think Te Aute should be retained as a secondary school for the Maoris.
15. Exclusively for the Maoris? – No. I have no means of knowing on what footing the Europeans are there.
16. Primarily for Maoris? – Yes; the Maoris should certainly preponderate in numbers.
17. With a strong industrial side? – Yes, with a very strong industrial side.
18. Should practical farming, in your opinion, be taught at Te Aute? – Yes, so long as it is on strictly limited lines. I think that to teach a Maori boy to farm as a boy would be taught at, Lincoln College would be a very great mistake, because he would go back to his village to entirely different conditions. With respect to industrial training of Maoris, I think we should endeavour to make the Maori a handy-man as far as possible. I know it may be said that it would tend to make him a “jack of all trades and master of none,” but I think that is perhaps what is wanted of the Maori at present. In going back to his people he has to go back to very primitive conditions, he has to work with simple appliances, and his habits are such that if he had modern appliances they would frequently be neglected. We ought to teach him to use simple tools – to use them effectively, and give him such a general idea of farming that he can apply his knowledge to his own circumstances.
19. What you would call, I suppose, a good practical training? – Yes.
20. Not too fanciful? – Certainly not fanciful. All one’s views on Maori education, it seems to me – all my views, and probably the views of anybody who is brought face to face with this question – are strongly affected by the fact that the Maori at present is held back by the communism of his people, and we must endeavour to send the boys back to their people so trained that they will be able to make some headway against the communistic spirit. At present, if a young Maori goes back to his people and works industriously and raises a good crop, his friends will help him to eat it. I do not mean that education alone can cure that, but I think we should in the meantime endeavour to lessen the evil part of it, and perhaps legislation might assist in removing this evil.
21. Mr. Ngata.] You want to encourage other ideas? – Yes.
22. The Chairman.] I suppose you know the Hukarere Girls’ School? – Yes.
23. Do your opinions with respect to Te Aute apply with equal force to Hukarere as regards the teaching of household duties, to the girls? – Yes; mutatis mutandis, my views with respect to Te Aute apply to Hukarere.
24. Nursing? – Yes; at any rate, the simpler means to be taken in case of sickness.
G. – 5. 102 [H. B. KIRK.
25. Cooking, housekeeping, and the care of children? – Yes, undoubtedly cooking. But, in regard to cooking, I do not think it is necessary to teach them up-to-date gas-range or even up-to-date kitchen-range methods. I think the girls should be taught simple cookery – even camp-oven cookery. I do not think cookery is a very important subject to teach the Maori girls, because my experience has been that the Maoris are generally good cooks. I think that what is wanted in that direction is the teaching of cleanliness in cooking.
26. Mr Hogg.] You have visited Te Aute College on several occasions? – Yes.
27. And you have inspected the classes there? – Yes.
28. I suppose you have acquainted yourself with the kind of education that is given in the College? – Unless it has been modified in the last four years, yes.
29. Had you to report to your Department on the result of your inspection? – Yes, always.
30. Were you satisfied yourself with the kind of education that is given to these Maori boys? – With the exceptions I have already indicated, I was satisfied. I was satisfied that the work which was done was thoroughly good, but I was not satisfied the lines were the best lines.
31. Did you approve of these lines? – At one time I did; latterly I did not. I changed my own views in the course of my connection with the Department.
32. Had the school been under your own control, for instance, would you have carried it on in the same way? – No, I should not.
33. What I should like to get from you is your ideas as to how the school should be carried on in order to improve these Maori boys to the greatest extent? – To commence at what I consider the most important point, I should make no change in regard to the morale of the school. In regard to all points of training that would tend to make men in the highest sense, there is nothing to be desired at Te Aute as I knew it. In regard to the side of the training with which the Education Department is specially concerned, I should, as I have already said, out down the head of the school very much. I should make the teaching in the lower part of the school more practical as far as I could do so, especially the teaching of English and in elementary business training, which would be rather a matter of the keeping and casting of accounts. I should pay more attention to the training of a boy so that he could check his own account at the store, or could keep his own account as a storekeeper, than to preparing him for any set standard of education. Of course, I know I was instrumental in applying the standards, and, in the main, I approve of them; but, at the same time, I should like to have had much more attention paid to the things which would crop up day after day in a Maori boy’s life. Particularly in regard to English, I should like a considerable extension of the scheme which is being followed in the village schools; I refer to conversational English.
34. Then, do you think it would be an improvement if the education in the Te Aute College were brought on parallel lines with the education in the ordinary primary schools? – No, I do not think so.
35. You think a special form of education is necessary for the Maoris? – Yes, and I think it will be so for some time, too. I think the conditions under which the Maori is going to live are different to the conditions under which we are going to live for the next generation or two.
36. Would you include a scientific training in place of the teaching of dead languages, and such things as Euclid and geometry? – Except that I should have all training on scientific lines, I should not include what we call in our schools elementary science, nature study, &c. I should like to see the boys taught to observe, although the Maori boys are generally keener to observe the things ‘we are teaching in our schools than we are. A Maori boy, and Europeans boys trained amongst the Maoris, would know the bush, for example, in a way that our boys do not know it. So far as training to observe is concerned, the Maori scarcely needs it at the present time. His powers of observation are sufficiently trained, and will be for some little time.
37. You have noticed that the Maori youths at the College are rather a fine stamp of athletics? – Yes.
38. Are they correspondingly, in your opinion, intellectually gifted? Are their intellectual faculties capable of being highly developed? – Yes, I think so. When I have said that my view is that the Maori should not be made a scholar, it is not that we cannot make a scholar of him. We can; but I think the life he has got to lead will be most useful to his people if we refrain. 39. Are you of opinion that if they were made better acquainted with the English language and were taught elocution, their powers would be developed in the necessary direction? – I do not think we can give too much time to making them well acquainted with English. I think that is the most important thing we can take in hand.
40. I presume it takes years to make them thorough English scholars? – Yes but the number of years will be less as time goes on, as English becomes more the language of the home.
41. Would you be in favour of teaching them to translate their own language into English and English into Maori? – In most cases I think it is not necessary. I should not be in favour of taking translation as a means of teaching English.
42. Then, do you not think it is necessary to teach Maori youths to read and write in their mother-tongue, as well as in the English language? – I have not found the Maori at a loss to read and write in his mother-tongue. Even a Maori with no knowledge of English can read and write Maori. I think the reason is that the men who fixed the alphabet for the Maori fixed it in such a rational fashion that the vowels have their proper sound, and all through the alphabet they had such a keen sense of the value to be attached to letters that to write the Maori language is not by any means a difficult thing to the Maori.
43. I think you have said you would be strongly in favour of giving them an education in agricultural science and in useful arts? – Yes, to a limited extent. I should try to train a boy in a Maori school on general lines, so that he could, if occasion arose, specialise either as a European or as a Maori, and, as a Maori specialist, as a farmer or artisan.
H. B. KIRK.] 103 G. – 5.
44. Do you think they would be improved by a commercial course of training? – I do not think so. I do not think they are yet in need of it.
45. Should they not be taught book-keeping? – Yes, simple book-keeping. That, I take it, would go with a thorough understanding of accounts.
46. Mr. Lee.] Speaking generally of the Maori race and of the need of a higher education for the cleverer children than the ordinary school in the kainga affords, do you think the Te Aute School and the Hukarere School would serve the purpose as secondary schools for the Maoris? – With regard to the selected intelligence of the Maori which, I think, might be drafted to the European ways of life, I think better results would be achieved by having the boys at a European secondary school. The Maoris that are to receive a really advanced English education would do better at the Auckland Grammar School, for example, than at Te Aute.
47. Does that apply to the few who need a classical education? – To the few, in my opinion. I think Te Aute and St. Stephen’s are schools that are quite equal to the needs of the average Maori, who, having good abilities, can specially use his abilities among his own people.
48. Would you agree to expunge from the Te Aute curriculum, say, Latin, geometry, and algebra in order to get more instruction in some technical branch? – Yes, for all but such as are likely to be leaders of their people, in the rather higher ranks, so to speak, than the average Maori can take. I should not like to give the impression that I think lightly of these subjects. I think highly of them, and I think highly especially of the mathematical subjects as a means of mental training; but I do not think there is in the few years we ought to keep a Maori away from his people time for them.
49. Do you happen to know if arithmetic is a difficulty at Te Aute College? – I did not know it was a difficulty. I know the Maori is generally very apt at arithmetic.
50. Do you think that instruction in the technique of agriculture would be a good subject to take at Te Aute College? – I think that every Maori should, so far as we train him, be trained to a limited extent in agricultural knowledge – to such an extent as will enable him to appreciate the simpler farming operations, and to know why he does a given thing, and what to do to attain a given result. But I should go no further with him, because it is by no means certain he is going to be a farmer, for one thing; and, again, the training at Te Aute or in a secondary school, especially for Maoris, should be a general training.
51. Do you think any actual industrial occupation should be taken up? – I do not think so. It again depends on my view that the Maori should go back to his own people. It has seemed to me always that a Maori apprentice must go amongst Europeans to make a living. If he works among his own people they do not at present see that work should be paid for in money, and he is likely to starve. Therefore, to make use of the training we have given him he must live away from his people.
52. Mr. Eliott.] You have more than once expressed the opinion that Maori boys should be discouraged from learning a trade and living amongst Europeans? – That is my opinion.
53. As a matter of fact, does not the educated Maori boy generally go back to the kainga life, and, instead of raising the people to his standard, does he not sink down to theirs? – I am afraid I must admit that it is so. I think I might be allowed to say we are discussing not only what the condition is at present, but what the condition will be supposing the Commission modifies it. At the same time, I do not hope we shall at present get over that tendency to relapse.
54. Do you not think it would be a greater incentive to the younger boys in the kainga if they saw a man pursuing his calling amongst Europeans, and earning a good living by it? – They might want to come up to his standard. A few would, and many would not. Then, again, for the most part they would not see this shining example.
55. Is not the whole tendency of the education to Europeanise the Maori, and not to keep him as a distinct race? – I do not want to keep him as a distinct race, but I do not want to absorb the best Maoris and leave the rest to remain Maoris. I should like to say that, in my opinion, communism is the reason why so many relapse. Once we pass that barrier we shall have fewer lapses.
56. Mr. Ngata.] The suggestion has been made to do away with the matriculation classes at Te Aute: do you fall in with that? – In the main, I do.
57. The difficulty, I think, is one of keeping up a separate staff; it is a question of expense and a question of time, so the suggestion has been thrown out to do away with subjects like Latin, Euclid, and algebra – which I may call matriculation subjects and substitute an extended course in English, and subjects like elementary practical agriculture and manual instruction? – Yes, if matriculation work for a limited number cannot be afforded. I should be entirely in favour of that, although I once fought the battle of the Latin classes at Te Aute, and considered I had made a case.
58. For matriculation work you suggest they would profit more by attending some European secondary school? – I think so.
59. What is your idea as to the selected cases which go to the European secondary schools with the further idea of going on to the University? Is it your idea that in future they should go back and work amongst their own people? – I think if the Education Department, say, at the Fourth or Fifth Standard, was satisfied that a boy had very great natural ability, such ability as would make him a creditable scholar, and if it were fairly well convinced that the boy was morally sound and a sticker at work, a fellow who would do his best, and still more if it had any reason whatever to suppose that the boy was a real lover of his own people, I should have no hesitation in training such a boy as a European, with the confidence that later on he would become a Europeanised leader of the Maoris.
60. A good deal has been said before this Commission of the tendency to relapse: are you aware of any case which might fairly be called an absolute relapse? – I think I know more cases among girls than among boys. Of course the boys retain the European polish and manners; but, so far as industry is concerned, I think I know of several cases of relapse.
G. – 5. 104 [H. B. KIRK.
61. Do you mean absolute failure, where the education has not been of the slightest benefit to themselves or to their people? – I should be sorry to use the term “absolute failure,” because I do not think I could get at the inwardness of any one case sufficiently. I mean if I had had the conduct of that boy’s education, and had known this was to be the result, I should have left him alone.
62. Perhaps you would attribute the failure – if it may be called failure – as much to the natural tendency of the “beast” – if I may use the expression – rather than to his education? – Undoubtedly. I do not think he is a worse Maori because educated, but he is a more noticeably bad Maori. On the other hand, I know of old Te Aute and St. Stephen’s boys who are doing fine work in their settlements. I should be sorry if in anything I said I gave the impression that Te Aute or any other Maori school has been a failure.
63. Have you read the public-school syllabus under the heading of “Elementary Practical Agriculture”? – Yes.
64. Do you think a syllabus like that, adapted to the needs of the Maori people, would be more profitable to an institution like Te Aute or St. Stephen’s? – I think that syllabus on lower lines would be a suitable one. I do not think the time given to training a Maori up to that point would be sufficient.
65. In regard to any proper curriculum for any Native school, you want a previous close acquaintance with the average needs of the Maori people in their kaingas? – Yes, unquestionably.
66. I think the Education Department has that in View now in the reorganization of Native schools, and in the suggestions thrown out for improvements in St. Stephen’s and Te Aute? – I think that is so.
GEORGE HOGBEN further examined.
67. The Chairman.] We should like to know from you who actually receives the money paid by the Government for the boys and girls sent from the Native village schools to Te Aute and Hukarere? – The money paid on account of Government scholars at Te Aute College is paid to the Ven. Archdeacon Samuel Williams, and that paid for Government scholars at Hukarere Maori Girls’ School is paid to the agent of Miss A. M. Williams, at Napier.
FRIDAY, 8TH JUNE, 1906.
WILLIAM CHARLES KENSINGTON examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are Under-Secretary for Crown Lands? – Yes.
2. You received instructions from the Minister of Lands to inspect the Te Aute Estate? – From the Acting-Premier, with a view to giving evidence as to whether it was fit for cutting up for close settlement.
3. You went up to Te Aute? – Yes, and on Tuesday I rode over the greater part of the estate.
4. Will you kindly state to the Commission the result of your investigation? – I may say that the total area of the estate is about 6,469 acres, so far as I could judge. That means that 92 acres have been taken off for roads and railway. I consider that the whole of the estate is fit for close settlement. It is one of the best-kept estates of the kind that I have been over. There are about 1,200 acres, as near as I could possibly judge, which I consider inferior land. It is inferior when you come to compare it with the rest of the estate, and the hills themselves are poor, and steep, and broken. So far as I could gather, most people seemed to favour the cutting-up of the land into areas of from 400 to 600 acres, but, of course, there is a great deal of the area that could be cut up certainly profitably into areas ranging from 150 to 200 to 250 acres. Some parts of the land are remarkably good.
5. Having inspected the property, and having regard to the whole of the circumstances existing at the time the last lease was given, I should like to know your opinion as to whether that lease was an improvident lease or not? – I should like to know, before answering, exactly when the lease was renewed. I have not been reading the evidence.
6. In 1903 the rental was £2,200 a year, or an average of 6s. 6d. per acre, and, in addition to that, the Archdeacon is giving free milk and cheap meat – about £150 a year – Which, of course, is not mentioned in the lease? – Well, looking at the price of land three years ago, and bearing in mind all the circumstances, and the fact- that the trustees had to provide revenue for a going concern in the school, and having regard to Mr. Coutts’s valuation, which I see he has given to the Commission at £6 18s. an acre on the average, I think that a fairly full value was given at the time of the renewal of the lease. I think that Mr. Coutts’s valuation in 1904 of £6 18s. per acre is a very fair valuation. Of course, land has gone up very much in value since, and probably £7 15s., I should say, would be a fair value now. I am going a good deal by the value of our Argyll Settlement about three years ago. I put in a plan for the information of the Commission showing the Te Aute College lands, and also the Argyll Settlement on both sides, with the capital value per acre of each section in the Argyll Settlement at which it was offered to the public in June, 1903. This value includes the cost of the land, and the cost of reading and administration and incidental expenses.
7. Were you accompanied by anybody in making the value? – Mr. Barron, Land Purchase Inspector, and Mr. Gold Smith, Commissioner of Crown Lands, were with me, but I did not consult them. I have given my own valuation.
8. We may look upon you as an expert? – As a member of the Land Purchase Board, I ought to know something about land-values.
9. In giving evidence before a Select Committee of the Legislative council in 1875, Archdeacon Williams said, in answer to a question from the Chairman. “What do you think would
W. C KENSINGTON.] 105 G. – 5.
be the probable value to let of the estate on the termination of the lease? – I should recommend the trustees myself that they should take into consideration the advisability of cutting the block, now the railway runs through it, into small lots, and letting them on long leases. I think it would bring in a much larger rental that way.” Do you agree with that? There is no doubt about it. If the land had been put up for close settlement it would probably have brought a higher rental. But, of course, it is only a fair thing to compare the question of trustees dealing with an estate where they are keeping up an institution as a going concern, with the Government’s dealing with the estate. Of course, the Government have the money to form roads and to lay out of income for a certain time, and, therefore, they could make the best use of it. But, in the case of trustees who have to keep up a going concern, and who have no money to spend on roads and administration it is quite a different question. You cannot place the two exactly on parallel lines.
10. You think, having regard to all these facts you have mentioned, and more particularly to the fact that the trustees had to be certain of a revenue in hand to carry on the school, and that they had no money to expend on roads and subdivision, they were justified in granting that lease? – I would like to say that I think all trustees in dealing with land such as this should invite public tenders. I think that is a rule which should be always observed. It is quite possible that in calling for public tenders and going through them afterwards there might be one or two higher, but that the trustees might consider that Archdeacon Williams was the best tenant, and might lease the estate to him. But the principle of calling for public tenders in dealing with trust lands is, I think, a sound one.
11. Referring also to the evidence given before the Legislative Council in 1875, this question and answer appear: “What, in your opinion, would be the probable value of the trust property when the lease falls in,” and what course, in your opinion, would best benefit the trust in the disposal of the property at such a time? – It is difficult to fix any definite sum, but inasmuch as the estate will have been very considerably improved since 1869, it should command a proportionably higher rental. As the property adjoins the railway the best course, in my opinion, to be followed in dealing with it would be to cut up any suitable portions into small holdings, and let them on long leases.” Do you agree with that? – I think that was very sound advice. Of course, I may say I know all these properties in Hawke’s Bay thoroughly. I knew them first in 1869, when I was sent down as a special commissioner on behalf of the General Government in connection with a dispute between the General and Provincial Governments.
12. Do you know that the trustee before granting these leases got valuations made – of the last lease by Mr. Baker, and of the previous lease by some other valuer? – I saw that on looking through the evidence this morning, but I did not know it before. I think it is only right to say that for leasehold property I have, never seen a property better kept in my life. It has been splendidly kept. The fencing and everything about it is really in splendid order. When I first saw the country in 1869 it was all rough and in fern, and when I saw it the other day I could hardly believe it was the same land.
13. Can you say about how much per acre has been expended on the land? – I could not possibly tell that without going into the figures.
14. We have a lot of evidence before us as to the adaptability of this land to dairying purposes: have you any opinion to offer as to that? – It is a very difficult matter, because I consider a good deal of that land is fit for dairying, but they do not appear to be going in for dairying in that part of the country.
15. Mr. Lee.] Is it not because of the fear of drought? – That has a good deal to do with it. I know Hawke’s Bay well, and during the last two years they have had splendid seasons; but I have seen Hawke’s Bay when the whole country has been burnt up. This particular property does not dry up as much as a good few of the other properties. There are some very nice springs and streams through it.
16. Mr. Hogg.] Most of it is pretty well watered? – I should call it fairly well watered.
17. What proportion of these 6,469 acres do you think is inferior land? – About 1,200 acres I should call inferior, and, I suppose, there are perhaps another 2,000 acres that might be called steep land.
18. Would the remaining 4,000 acres cut up into areas of 150 to 250 acres? – I should rather like, because of the uncertainty of the seasons, to make the areas 300 acres on the average.
19. Would that apply to 4,000 acre? – To about 3,000 acres, certainly to a little less than half.
20. Could you say, roughly, into how many good family homesteads the estate could be divided? – I have not gone into that question, but I should say twenty families certainly might be placed there. Some of the inferior land you could not cut up into less than from 500 to 600 acres.
21. Is much of the land ploughable? – A considerable portion of it.
22. And suitable for cropping? – Yes.
23. Do you know whether the farmers in the vicinity have been successful in cropping their land? – In the Argyll Settlement they have been most successful in cropping the land. I visited the settlement on this occasion on purpose to see it. There is one man on the Argyll Settlement who got over 90 bushels of oats to the acre.
24. Do you know what rental that man was paying? – No, but he has, I think, obtained one of the higher-priced sections, which run from 7s. to 11s. per acre.
25. Do you think the revenue of the school would suffer in any way supposing the land were subdivided in this way? – That is a difficult question to answer. There would be no danger at all supposing the estate was administered by the Government; but the trustees, who have to keep the school as a going concern, have no money to enable them to stand out of their rent and interest.
26. Assuming they were able to borrow money to subdivide and make roads, do you think the revenue would suffer in any way? – Certainly not.
14 – G. 5.
G – 5. 106 [W. C. KENSINGTON.
27. What, in your opinion, would it cost to road the estate? – I cannot tell you, because I have not gone into the question sufficiently. But I should think it would take about £2,000 to road it.
28. Supposing the estate was free of any lease and there was nothing to prevent them cutting it up, your advice would be to cut it up into small holdings? – Yes. Of course, you must remember that the trustees must keep a certain area around the homestead and school. 29. What area do you think would be necessary supposing, for example, it was deemed advisable to teach agriculture? – I should say not less than 500 acres for that purpose. 30. I suppose those. 500 acres would not be altogether unreproductive? [unproductive]. They could be used for raising crops, and giving thorough practical instruction.
31. What kind of lease would you suggest in the event of the estate being subdivided? – The best form of lease seems to me that known as the Glasgow lease, fifty-years lease with the right of renewal, and compensation for improvements up to a specified limit, and revaluation, say, every fifteen years. Of course, in these revaluations the value of the tenant’s improvements should be exempted.
32. Mr. Eliott.] Would there be any difficulty in roading the estate? – None.
33. I understand the Hatuma settlers had some concession given to them – they had three years in which to pay their rents? – Yes, and they have paid them all up.
34. Could the trustees have done that, seeing that they have to carry on the school? – They could not.
35. If the estate was cut up it would be necessary for the Government to take it over? – If the trustees could arrange to do what the Government can do they could carry on. I should think the trustees, holding valuable lands like that, could always raise money.
36. Mr. Ngata.] Would you favour the trustees parting with the freehold at any time? – My own opinion is that the freehold of no endowment lands, particularly where education is concerned, should be parted with.
37. Supposing these trustees do not feel disposed to fall in with the suggestion to cut up the estate into small farms, how do you propose to get over the difficulty? – I cannot answer that question.
38. Mr. Hogben.] Would it be possible to cut up a portion of the estate at a time, so as not to reduce the income so much? – Looking at the particular circumstances of this estate, my own opinion is that you should not deal with it partially. The whole of the estate should be cut up and dealt with at one and the same time, so as to dispose of the inferior land with the good land.
WANGANUI, FRIDAY, 15TH JUNE, 1906.
PETER HENRY BUCK examined.
1. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a bachelor of medicine and a bachelor of surgery of the University of New Zealand.
2. You were educated at Te Aute? – Yes; I went from the public school to Te Aute, and from Te Aute to the New Zealand University.
3. Do you wish to make a statement? – In looking through the evidence before the Te Aute Commission, I notice there were only two old Te Aute boys who had given any evidence, and I thought perhaps it would be as well to have on record the opinion of some old Te Aute boys, especially of boys on this coast, who form a fair division of those who have been at Te Aute, as regards the education of Te Aute and what it should aim at. I may mention that last night we had a meeting of the Wanganui branch of the Te Aute College Students’ Association, and we discussed the matter, and I was deputed by them to place their views before the Commission. As regards the education at Te Aute, we consider that the aim of education for the Maoris, as well as for Europeans, should be to develop the faculties of the Maori so that ’he will be of the most use to himself and to his people. In considering this we went through what I might term the relative values of knowledge, and we came to the conclusion that more prominence should be given to scientific knowledge; that the aim of knowledge should be to help the Maori to develop to the fullest the resources that he has. The two things helping in that are his heredity and his environment. Judging from these points of view the Maori has no sympathy with classical education; but he has more of what I may term a leaning towards the scientific and manual things handed down to him by his ancestors, in the way of woodcraft and carving, and things of that sort. He was ever a keen observer of the phenomena of nature, and therefore his leaning is more towards science than towards learning languages and mathematics. Therefore, from that point of view the Maori would be much better off if instructed in agriculture and technical subjects. Then, as regards his environments and his position at present, we know the Maori still possesses large areas of land, and if the Maori is to do any good in the world, he must be taught to work these lands. In fact, his existence, I may say, depends upon it. It is the principal mode of safety open to the Maori, and therefore we were unanimous in our opinion that prominence should be given to agricultural and technical subjects. It was unanimously moved by the branch association last night, and carried, “That the Wanganui branch of the Te Aute College Students’ Association, whilst loath to see any lowering of the present intellectual standard at Te Aute, fully recognises that under the present circumstances of the Maori people owning large areas of suitable agricultural and pastoral land, greater prominence should be given to technical education and agriculture in the school curriculum.” I may say as an old Te Aute boy who passed to the University through the classical education given at Te Aute – voicing my own opinion and the opinion of my fellows, we should be very loath indeed to see matriculation
P. H. BUCK.] 107 G. – 5.
class done away with. We should like to see it preserved; but we should like to see also agricultural and technical subjects taught. My own idea was, if it could possibly be arranged, that the two should go on together at Te Aute, and, say, at the Fourth Standard the boys should be drafted. Those fitted for a classical education should continue and go into the matriculation class, and those more suited for manual labour and agriculture should go into that department of the College. If however, owing to financial reasons one has to go, by all means let the classical side go, and let the means of education which will be of the greatest good to the greatest number be given due prominence.
4. Mr. Lee.] You advocate specialisation, so that the few who need Latin and wish to go to matriculation can do so, but that the bulk of the school can be better employed at such branches of technical education as will fit them for their life on the land? – Quite so.
WANGANUI INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL TRUST.
WELLINGTON, TUESDAY, 5TH JUNE. 1906.
FELIX THEOPHILUS O’NEILL further examined.
1. The Chairman.] Have you in your office the file showing the origin, correspondence, &c., in connection with the Wanganui Industrial School Estate? – Yes.
The Chairman: I have received the following letter from the Hon. Mr. T. Y. Duncan, Minister of Lands: “Wellington, 2nd June, 1906. – Referring to your interview with an officer of this Department regarding the production of papers concerning the issue of a Crown grant to the Right Rev. George Augustus, Bishop of New Zealand, of land at Wanganui, in trust for an industrial school, I have to say that there are some papers of a confidential character contained among the records. If you will be good enough to specify what particular papers, or what papers connected with your inquiry, are necessary, the matter will then be considered.” I have not yet seen the Minister about this matter.
2. The Chairman (to witness).] Have you amongst the records the original Crown grant that was issued for that endowment? – Yes, I believe so. I produce the book in which these Crown grants are recorded. It is a book entitled, “Register of Crown Grants.” There is a triplicate copy of the original grant at Register No. 1, folio 48. The date is 13th October, 1852. The number of the grant is 45. The grant contains these words: “For the education of children of our subjects of all races and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean.” At the end of the grant there are these words: “In trust, never – nevertheless and for the use and towards the maintenance of the said school so long as religious education industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to the youth educated therein or maintained thereat.” Across the face of the grant there are these words: “Cancelled. Fresh deed issued, dated 13th October, 1853. (See folio 52.) – (Signed) A. DOMETT.” At folio 52 there is the following: “Grant for Industrial School at Wanganui.” The date is 13th October, 1852.
3. Do you know whether that is the true date of that grant, or was it issued in 1853? – I am inclined to think it was issued at a later date.
4. Have you any record showing what the date actually was when it was issued? – No. The book itself shows that it was, entered for record on the 16th October, 1852. I think there is a clerical error in the date of the memo, written across the deed.
5. The second grant to which you have just referred – Is that numbered 45 also? – Yes. It contains these words: “For the education of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean.” The words “of our subjects of all races and of children” have been left out. At the end of the grant there are these words: “In trust, nevertheless, and for the use and towards the maintenance of the said school so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to the youth educated therein or maintained thereat.” Those words are exactly the same.
6. That is to be read in connection with the trust words? – Yes.
7. You have not got the original of the grant? – No.
8. But you have the original one recorded at page 48? – Yes, that is on the file, and across the face of that grant- are the same words as written here, and the same date is given. Of course, “1853” is a clerical error. It was intended, I take it, that that date should have been 1852.
9. The file will show why the 1853 date was put in, or whether it is an error? – Yes.
JOHN DAVID WATT examined.
10. The Chairman.] What are you? – Draughtsman in the Survey Office.
11. Do you produce the special-grant book? – Yes.
12. Have you in that book a special grant for the Wanganui Industrial School Estate? – Yes. The folio is No. 109, and the number of the grant is 45.
13. That is your office copy of the original grant? – Yes.
14. Is there any other grant for the Wanganui Industrial Estate in your office? – Not that I know of. The date of the grant is 13th October, 1852. The grant contains these words: “For the education of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean.” At the end there are these words: “In trust, nevertheless, and for the use and towards the maintenance of the said school so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to the youth educated therein or maintained thereat.”
G. – 5 108
JAMES MEACHAM BATHAM examined.
15. The Chairman.] You are Registrar of Deeds for the District of Wellington? – Yes.
16. The title of the Wanganui Industrial School Estate is recorded in the books in your office? – Yes.
17. Have you got certified copies of the deed plans of the subdivisions of the estate deposited in your office? – Yes, Nos. 73, 244, 245, 246, and 261.
18. The deeds and other instruments registered appear in the deeds index, Volume 17? – Yes.
19. Have you a certified copy of the Crown grant recorded in Volume 9, folio 40? – Yes [Exhibit No. 45].
20. There is also a conveyance from the Bishop of New Zealand to the Bishop of Wellington and others, dated 13th May, 1862, registered No. 88,053, No. 150, Deeds Record Book, and registered the 28th March, 1904? – Yes. I produce a full extract of the deed, so far as it relates to the land in this district. It also relates to land in other parts of the colony.
21. Is this the only Crown grant you have registered or deposited in your office? – Yes. We have had a search made, and there is no unregistered grant lying in the office.
WEDNESDAY, 6TH JUNE, 1906.
FREDERIC WALLIS examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are Bishop of the Diocese of Wellington? – Yes.
2. You are one of the trustees of the Wanganui Collegiate School endowment? – Yes.
3. Who are the other trustees? – There are four others – the Rev. T. B. Maclean, Vicar of Wanganui; Mr. R. E. Beckett, of Marton, Dr. G. E. Anson, of Wellington; and Mr. W. H. Quick, also of Wellington.
4. The trustees have been appointed by the General Synod? – Yes.
5. Do you produce the original grant of the endowment? – Yes. It is dated the 13th October, 1852, and is signed by Sir George Grey.
6 Do you know of any other grant? – I have heard of one, but I have not seen it.
7. Have you heard that the original grant was supposed to have been cancelled and a new grant issued? – I have heard that in an earlier grant than this the land was incorrectly described, so a new grant was issued.
8. The alleged second grant appears to have been dated the 16th of the same month of the same year? – I have never heard of it.
9. The trustees have never surrendered that grant in any way? – No.
10. And it is under the trust declared in that grant that the school is now being carried on? – Yes
11. When did you first take office as trustee? – As soon as I came to the colony, in 1895
12. Have the trustees an agent or secretary? They have two. There is Mr. A. Gualter, who does the work at Wellington, and Mr. E. N. Liffiton, who does the bulk of the work, at Wanganui.
13. Do the trustees meet at stated intervals? – No; just when necessity requires.
14. Are the meetings held in Wanganui? – Up till now the meetings have been held always at Wellington, but we have begun a system of holding meetings at Wanganui. I expect that we shall meet there regularly in future.
15. Do you know what books of account are kept? – I can say nothing much about them. Mr. Liffiton is the best authority.
16. Does he collect the rents? – Yes.
17. And do all moneys coming into the trust come through his hands? – Yes.
18. What other moneys are there? – The chief income is derived from the fees. The endowment income is the smaller part of our total income.
19. The other income is the fees paid by the parents of the boys who attend the school? – Yes, that is our main source of income.
20. To whom are the fees paid? – Through the headmaster or his clerk to Mr. Liffiton.
21. Is there a banking account belonging to the trust? – Yes, at Wanganui.
22. Who operates on the Wanganui trust account? – Mr. Liffiton, under direction from the trustees. It is generally done through Mr. Maclean, the resident trustee at Wanganui.
23. He signs the cheques? – Yes.
24. When payments are made out of moneys belonging to the trust, are these payments sanctioned by the trustees before the cheques are drawn? – Yes, in all cases. May I say that information on these matters can better be given by Mr. Maclean. He does more of the financial work than I do.
25. Are the accounts audited? – Yes. The trustees appoint the auditor.
26. Do the trustees take any part in the management of the school in regard to teaching, or is that left in the hands of the headmaster? – It was left in the hands of the headmaster until the end of 1901; for the money arising from the endowment was not sufficient to meet the expenses incurred on the buildings, and therefore we prescribed the fees, and left the education largely in his hands. Since 1901 we have taken it into our own hands.
27. Do I understand, then, that the whole of the rents from the endowment and all fees and income go into the trust account, and that out of that you pay salaries and for the upkeep of buildings and so forth? – Yes
28. And that arrangement has been in force since 1901? – Yes Prior to that Mr Empson received the fees himself, and paid the teachers and all the expenses connected with the boarding of the boys.
29. In other words, you farmed the school to the headmaster? – Precisely; we having a general supervision, and giving advice from time to time, and prescribing in all cases the amount of fees.
F. WALLIS.] 109 G. – 5.
30. You had confidence in him, but watched what he was doing, and interfered in case of necessity? – Precisely.
31. Are the masters now appointed by the trustees? – They are appointed by the headmaster, and paid by the trustees
32. Are they appointed subject to your approval? – He has the sole power of appointment and of dismissal, subject in the latter case to appeal to the trustees by the dismissed master.
33. The grant shows an endowment of 250 acres? – Yes.
34. Under whose control is the letting and subdividing of the estate? – Under the control of the trustees.
35. Portions of the estate have been let? – Yes. You will get all particulars from Mr. Maclean.
36. Has there been any accumulation of revenue? – No.
37. You find the rents and fees just suficient to maintain the school in its present position? – Yes. We have already incurred an overdraft of something like £600 or £700 for additions to the buildings. We have no accumulated funds.
38. Can you give us the names of the teachers and the salaries paid to each teacher? – Yes. W. Empson, B.A., Oxon., headmaster, £550 per annum, including £50 for clerk; J. R. Orford, M.A., Camb., £300; Rev. C. Price, M.A., Oxon, Chaplain, now on his way out to New Zealand, £250; F. L. Peck, £250; H. B. Watson, M.A., N.Z., £200.; E. C. Hardwicke, M.A., Camb., £200; G. F. Magrath, M.A., Camb., £200; J. E. Bannister, M.A., N.Z., £200; J. Harold, £200; Mrs. Atkinson, £200; J. Neame, B.A., Lond., £200; J. S. Lomas, B.A., N.Z., £150; and S. Dunn, £60, making a total of £2,960, which is more than double the income from the endowment.
39. According to the grant the trust is for “the education of children of our subjects of all races and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean.” Have you any form of application for admission to the College? – Yes, but I have not a copy here.
40. That has to be filled up by the parents of the applicants? – Yes.
41. That application is signed, and sent to whom? – To the headmaster.
42. In whose hands is the rejection or acceptance of the application? – In the headmaster’s.
43. Entirely? – Yes.
44. The trustees do not in any way interfere? – No. I suppose that if an applicant was rejected he might appeal to the trustees, but no such case has ever arisen, and we have not therefore legislated for it.
45. Are any boys admitted into that school free of cost? – Yes, a large number. Of course, the Education Board scholars are maintained by their scholarships. Then, we offer free tuition and free or reduced board to all boys in the Wanganui Education District who have qualified for scholarships and have not received them owing to lack of funds on the part of the Board. They are admitted free. If you will allow me I should like to quote some figures in connection with the money spent in reducing fees and in admitting free scholars. For the ten years preceding 1897 an average of £320 per annum was remitted. In 1898, £476 was remitted; in 1899, £367: in 1900, £353; and in 1901, £552. All that money came from the headmaster’s pocket. He voluntarily surrendered these fees; they were not surrendered by the trustees but by himself, because, until the end of 1901, he received everything. Since that time the remissions for board alone have been: in 1902, £221; in 1903, £253; in 1904, £239, and in 1905, £225. The remissions for board, of course, came out of the headmaster’s pocket, and the trustees remitted in addition the capitation fee for these boarders of £1 per term, and also the fees of several day boys. Altogether they have given during these four years an average of between £50 and £60 towards free education. So the total amount spent in free education bears a very large proportion to the amount received from the endowment.
46. Have you ever received any aid or grants from the Government? – Only, so far as I know, in the shape of these Education Board scholars we have six of these – three senior and three junior scholarships. A remission of payment is made, first of all, in the case of boys who qualify for the Education Board scholarships, and then to poor parents, and especially to sons of the clergy. I may say that paying boys have been refused on account of want of space in order to keep on these other boys at reduced fees. May I lay more especial emphasis on what I said just now – that any boy qualifying for an Education Board scholarship and not receiving a scholarship owing to lack of funds is admitted free – that means any boy attaining at a certain age a certain proficiency obtains entirely free education. And you will understand that is mainly due to the headmaster’s generosity.
47. Is the school open to all the people mentioned in the grant? – Yes.
48. Is there any standard of education required on admission? – We have no preliminary examination. We have a limit in regard to age. The youngest boy at present is eleven years of age. We should not like to receive them younger.
49. That is left entirely to the headmaster? – Entirely.
50. Have the trustees been considering the question of rebuilding? – Yes, but we have not sufficient money in hand to do any rebuilding at present.
51. You have no power to raise money in any way, and if you had I suppose it would be a question as to whether it would be advisable to do so? – Yes, we should have to think it over very carefully.
52. Is the school inspected by the Government health officers? – Not regularly, but we had an inspection from the Public Health Department a little while ago. Its officer and Dr. Anson went very carefully into the matter. We are of opinion that it could not be a healthier place.
53. And the school is inspected by the Inspector-General of Education? – Yes, by the invitation of the trustees.
G. – 5. 110 [F. WALLIS.
54. What have you to say in regard to the question of industrial training at this school: have the trustees taken that matter into consideration? – We have not thought that very much was required. We have at present a carpenter’s shop, in which from forty to fifty boys receive lessons in carpentry – an hour’s lesson twice a week. They make cabinets, writing-tables, and other articles, and they have themselves built several of our school buildings. That is perhaps the best proof of the reality of the training. For example, they built the cricket pavilion, laboratory, two class-rooms, music-room, drying-room, and other buildings, which you will see when you visit Wanganui. We have thought that is the best thing we could do with such boys as we have and in such circumstances.
55. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think that the original object of the trust has been carried out? – Yes, absolutely. And I think that has been the opinion of Parliament. I might refer the Commission to the debate in the year 1869, when Sir Julius Vogel brought forward a motion condemning the conduct of the school, and it was thrown out by the House of Representatives. In 1879 Mr. Ballance brought forward a new scheme which was accepted by the House of Representatives, but was discharged from the Order Paper of the Legislative Council, we are informed, on Mr. Ballance’s own initiative. Since then nothing more has been done, so we account that the State is with us in thinking we are using the grant aright.
56. In this deed it is specified the endowment is intended for the education of the children of our subjects of all races, and of the children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of the islands of the Pacific Ocean: do you think the children of poor and destitute persons have received ample instruction from the funds derived from the grant? – I hardly know what “other,” in the last clause, means. That has always puzzled us. It does not appear in the first line. We have at present one Fijian in the school, but he is the only person we have from outside New Zealand.
57. It says, “being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean”: does not that include New Zealand and the islands adjacent to it? – We have been doubtful whether it does or does not. It is not clear. I always thought that the first line, “for the education of our subjects of all races,” referred chiefly to New Zealand, and that the following words were meant to apply to inhabitants of Melanesia and Polynesia. However, waiving that point, I think that inasmuch as the fee for tuition is only £4 per term, and that that is reduced in the case of able boys, we are doing a great deal for the poor. I might mention that we have let a large portion of our land – an acre[s] or two – at a nominal rent for a district high school. I consider that £4 per term is not a fee that only rich people can pay.
58. What do you get for the high-school land? – A merely nominal rent – perhaps £1 or 1s. year.
59. Further on in the grant reference is made to religious education and industrial training: do you think the small amount of time devoted to industrial training is sufficient to meet the requirements of the grant? – I think that is the best thing that can be done under the circumstances in such a school as ours.
60. You see, there is a sum of about £3,000 a year paid in salaries, of which amount only £60 is paid for industrial training? – Yes, industrial training is not one of the chief features of the school. We admit that at once. We are quite ready to consider the question of more industrial work if it is required.
61. Mr. Lee.] Do you know whether any boys not of European origin have been refused admission to the school? – I am quite certain there has not been such a case. At present we have one Maori and five half-castes, and one Fijian. In 1898 we had two Maoris (one receiving free education) and several half-castes.
62. Do you think that the teaching of carpentry or woodwork is sufficient industrial or technical training? – I think so. There is a technical school over the road at Wanganui. We have to consider what will best meet the needs of the inhabitants of Wanganui and New Zealand generally, and it seems to us that is the best thing we can do for them. Of course, we could have them trained in farming, but we think that instruction is best supplied at Lincoln College and elsewhere.
63. Do any of the boys attending the College attend the classes in the Technical School? – Some of the day boys may. I have no information about that.
64. The Chairman.] Section 85 of the Education Act reads: “85. No pupil shall, after the passing of this Act, be admitted to a secondary school until he has obtained a certificate of competency in the subjects of Standard V, or a higher standard, of the public-school syllabus: Provided that pupils that have not obtained such a certificate may be admitted to a lower department of such secondary school if they are taught in a separate building or class-room, and if it can be shown to the satisfaction of the Minister that no part of the actual cost of their instruction is let out of the endowments of the secondary school.” Would the trustees object to an entrance test before admission to the school? – The trustees have considered the matter, and I think the majority re in favour of such an entrance examination, but the headmaster and the second master are of opinion that it is not a wise thing that we should lose the opportunity of educating many boys who are the better for being educated.
65. Mr. Lee.] Is the curriculum of the school planned or directed by the trustees or by the Headmaster? – By the headmaster, subject to the trustees. The trustees have from time to time trained outside examiners to report to them about the education. For example, we had Mr. Gammell from Otago a little while ago. We have had also Professor Brown, of Victoria College, and the Rev. J. L. Dove, formerly a master of Haileybury, and Mr. Rowe, of Palmerston North. We have tried to give effect to the recommendations in their reports.
66. The trustees made these appointments? – Yes, and the examiners have reported privately 3 the trustees.
F. WALLIS.] 111 G. – 5.
67. Mr. Eliott.] Is any question of religion raised when an application is made for admission to the school? – No.
68. You take all faiths and all creeds? – Yes. For example, at the last census we found we had one Wesleyan, two Plymouth Brethren, nine Presbyterians, and three Roman Catholics amongst the boarders only.
69. The Chairman.] There are not a great many day scholars? – They are mostly boarders. There are forty-six day scholars and 140 boarders. The numbers have grown very largely since Mr. Empson took over the school in May, 1888.
70. Mr. Eliott.] Has the school any other source of revenue than that derived from the endowment and school fees? – No, except that a large number of prizes have been given. I should like to call the attention of the Commissioners to the large amount given in scholarships by the headmaster himself. I would draw the Commissioners’ attention to a report of the headmaster to our Diocesan Synod of 1898, which is as follows: – “The trustees may be interested to know that the headmaster offers free tuition to all boys who qualify for the Education Board’s Junior or Senior Scholarships but are unable to obtain them owing to lack of funds on the part of the Board – in other words, any boy by attaining a certain standard of proficiency at a certain age can obtain a free education at the school. The following list of moneys spent in connection with the school, apart from any help from the estate may be of value to the trustees: –
£ s. d
Second master’s house (built by headmaster, who receives rent from occupier) 1,200 0 0
Harvey memorial (collected by subscription; interest used for mathematical prize) 58 0 0
Old boys (interest for second mathematical prize) 20 0 0
Earl of Glasgow’s prize (interest for classical prize) 50 0 0
New class-rooms and library above gymnasium (money collected by subscription among old boys and parents) 250 0 0
Organ in chapel (this was a private gift) 200 0 0
Two fives courts (paid for by degrees out of games fund) 110 0 0
Tennis-court, shell-rock (paid for by degrees out of games fund) 72 0 0
Swimming-baths (amount obtained by subscription amongst old boys and parents) 200 0 0
Still required for baths, and will have to be paid by charging fee 150 0 0
Carpenter’s shop (material supplied by trustees, labour by boys; – this amount represents estimated cost of labour only) 300 00
Laboratory, music-room, and class-room built by boys (these were paid for by headmaster; this represents material only) 222 0 0
Enlargement of dining-room and dormitory (two-thirds of this was paid by trustees, balance by headmaster; balance alone is entered here) 42 0 0
New bathrooms, &c. (paid for by headmaster) 88 0 0
New uniforms for cadet corps (this amount was paid by headmaster, to be repaid out of yearly capitation of £20) 150 0 0
Cricket pavilion built by boys (paid for by headmaster; this represents material only) 30 0 0
Chapel (subscriptions collected by the late Dr. Harvey) 900 0 0
Total £3,772 0 0
In addition there are many smaller items which would probably bring the whole amount up to about £4,000.
Since this report was made other benefactions have been made, including £70 given by Dr. Pennefather for a mathematical prize.
71. These are voluntary subscriptions? – Yes.
72. Mr. Ngata.] What revenue is derived from the endowment? – About £1,200 a year.
73. How many terms are there in the year? – Three terms of thirteen weeks each.
74. Does the £4 per term include board? – No. That is the fee for tuition, paid by day boys and boarders alike. The boarders pay in addition £15 per term for board and residence, including washing, and a sum for extras amounting to about £1. A slight reduction is made in the case of brothers.
75. T he fee of £4 per term is paid by all boarders? – Unless remitted.
76. In the case of free scholars coming from a distance, is there board provided? – Not because they come from a distance; but if their means, in the judgment of the headmaster, do not allow them to pay the full sum he generally makes a reduction on the boarding, or remits the fee altogether.
77. Who gets the boarding fees? – The headmaster entirely.
78. They do not form part of the funds of the institution? – No.
79. What has been the average attendance, say, during the last two or three years? – From 1900 to 1904 the average attendance was 201. The number now at the school is 185. The difference is due to the fact that we have had to give up one of our boardinghouses inasmuch as it was leased. We had thus to give up twenty boys simply for lack of room.
80. The Chairman.] The Commissioners desire me to call your attention to this paragraph in the annual report, furnished to both Houses of the General Assembly by command of His Excellency, dated the 18th August, 1870: “Looking at the magnitude of the grant, and the loss which the people of the place have suffered by the diversion of the land from its original purpose, the
G. – 5. 112 [F. WALLIS.
Commissioners recommend that the land should, whenever practicable, be laid out again, and rendered available for town purposes, and that the annual proceeds should be so appropriated as to give the inhabitants of every denomination and every class a fair share in the benefis accruing from the grant”? – This was before the consideration by Parliament in 1873, when it was decided to take no action. With regard to the matter of giving education to inhabitants of every denomination, I am informed that endowments were made at that time to the Roman Catholics, to the Wesleyans, and to the Church of England. Our endowment was placed in the hands of Bishop Selwyn, and, therefore, we have had no misgivings that it was intended for the use of the Church of England. With regard to the words “ every class,” I have answered that questions already by dwelling upon the lowness of the tuition fee charged, the large amount of fees remitted, and the fact that we have leased part of the school grant at a nominal rent to the District high school.
81. With regard to sections 90 and 91 of “The Education Act, 1904,” viz.: “90. (1.) Every endowed secondary school that has not complied with the provisions of section nine of ‘The Secondary Schools Act, 1903,’ shall, within three months after receipt of a notice from the Minister so to do, forward to the Minister a copy of the scheme or regulations defining its curriculum and the respective powers of the governing body and the headmaster, and stating the provision (if any) made for pupils living away from home, and the provision made for the periodic examination of the pupils of such school. (2.) If the scheme so forwarded, or if any scheme forwarded under the said section nine, is not approved by the Minister, or if the governing body fails to comply with such notice, the Minister may refer the matter to a Commission consisting of the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand, the Inspector-General of Schools, and a person appointed in that behalf by the governing body; and such Commission shall thereupon draw up a scheme, which, when placed before the Minister, shall be the scheme for the management of such school. – 91. (1.) Every secondary school and district high school shall be open at all times to inspection by the Inspector-General of Schools, or by any other person directed by the Minister to inspect such school. (2.) Such inspection may include examination of the pupils in the subjects of instruction taught in such school.” Would the trustees have any objection to these sections being made applicable to the Wanganui Collegiate School? – They would have to consider the matter: I cannot speak for the trustees. I am quite sure that we should receive very gratefully any suggestions made by the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand and the Inspector-General of Schools; but whether the trustees would desire to place themselves under the Secondary Schools Act is an important question, and I should like to consult my brother trustees about it. It is a very important question, because supposing we did not agree with the recommendations made by these persons after considering them carefully we should still be bound by them. Again, the Act may be amended hereafter, so as to change its character materially. It might be better for us to give up our endowment, which is not a very large part of our revenue, and with the help of subscriptions to start the school somewhere else. We should have to think of that before surrendering any part of our independence, which we value. It would not be at all difficult with the enthusiasm that prevails for the school to cut ourselves adrift from the endowment and to start somewhere else. We do not want to do so. I shall be glad to put the matter before the trustees if you wish. I wish to say that any recommendation made by yourselves, or by other educational authorities, for the improvement of our curriculum, or any other suggestion at all we should receive with very great thankfulness, and we should consider them, I promise you, very carefully.
82. Mr. Hogben.] Have the trustees made, or considered the desirability of making, any provision for the education of girls? – No; we have not thought of doing that at present. There is a very good school for girls at present in Wanganui, and we should not like to interfere even if we had funds to do so.
83. The Chairman.] Is there any statement that you would wish to volunteer to the Commission? – I should like to speak in regard to one matter concerning which I have not been questioned – that is, with regard to the Maori boys. The grant is often quoted as if it was for the education of Her Majesty’s subjects of “both races.” You will notice that the phrase used is “all races.” That means, I take it, that boys of all races are to be welcomed, and no one is to be refused; but no special emphasis is drawn to Maori boys. It is not, as is often stated, predominantly a Maori school. As I have said, we welcome Maori boys heartily, and should be glad to have a few more there now; but there is no special provision in the grant for Maori education. Moreover, we have two other trusts connected with the Wellington Province – the Porirua trust and the Papawai trust. The lands of these trusts were given by the Natives themselves, which was not the case at Wanganui, and therefore, although the grant in each case is also for the instruction of “Her Majesty’s subjects of all races,” we are devoting the funds entirely to the Maoris in the case of the Papawai and the Porirua grants, in the case of the latter with the sanction of the Supreme Court. I want that emphasized, because again and again in the Wanganui papers, when complaint is made nothing is done for the Maoris, I have seen it stated that the grant is “for both races.”
84. Mr. Ngata.] What difference do you make in the interpretation of these trusts? – You have in the Wanganui grant “for our subjects of all races,” and in the Porirua, St. Stephen’s, and some of the northern grants you have “for our subjects of both races”? – I think there is a great difference between these terms. “Subjects of all races” is a general term with no particular reference; but where “both races” is put in the grant there is surely given a specific direction to do all that can be done for each of the two races – European and Maori. With regard to the further words in the Wanganui grant, “and to the children of other poor and destitute, being inhabitants of the islands of the Pacific Ocean,” I think that was meant to refer to Fijians and Melanesians, whom Bishop Selwyn and others desired to be included amongst ourselves. That is my own interpretation of the grant.
85. It seems from the figures supplied that a boarder would require to have fully £60 a year before he could attend Wanganui College? – As a boarder, yes, except in the case of poor parents. We give away in remissions an amount equal to something like 30 per cent. of the money we receive from our endowment. We give away £350, and the income from the endowment is £1,200.
113 G. – 5.
WILLIAM HENRY QUICK examined.
86. The Chairman.] You are a barrister and solicitor of the Supreme Court of New Zealand, and. you are one of the trustees of the Wanganui Collegiate School? – Yes. Bishop Wallis and I were appointed trustees of the school in 1895. In regard to the Te Aute trust, some complaint has been made touching the methods in which the lease has been granted. That can hardly be said to apply to us, because since I have been a trustee, whenever a lease has fallen in we have put it up to tender, and the consequence is this: that nearly all the present leases have been put up to tender to the highest bidder. We have done our best to get revenue in that way.
87. The endowment is town land? – It is technically town land; but I remember the time when it was a swamp.
88. It is not suitable for farming: it must be used for business or residential purposes? – It will be mostly used for residential purposes. We have not power to borrow money for the purpose of opening up roads. There is some negotiation, I understand, going on between the Rev. Mr. Maclean, one of the trustees, and the Borough Council by which it is suggested that the Borough Council could put on an extra rate. If they do that, of course that would help us to a certain extent without waiting for our ordinary revenue to be sufficient for that purpose – which it seems to me will be a long time hence. There is a matter that has just struck me – I do not know whether it has come under the cognisance of the Commissioners. The Crown grants for educational purposes were made subsequent to the Education Ordinance passed in 1847 [Exhibit No. 46]. The words “religious education, industrial training, and teaching of English” applied to every such school in those days. I do not know from whom the words emanated – whether from Bishop Selwyn or Sir George Grey – but they appear in the Ordinance I have referred to. With respect to the words “industrial training,” I suppose the notion was that young settlers would be all the better of learning how to knock up a shanty or something of that kind. Of course, the whole of the education in those days was carried on by the three leading denominations – the Church of England, the Church of Rome, and the Wesleyans – and they are mentioned in the Ordinance. I thought it perhaps just as well to call the attention of the Commission to this point, as it may throw some light on the use of the words in those days. They apply to every school except private schools. They apply to every school receiving any money endowment. It does not apply to primary schools now. That Ordinance, of course, no longer exists.
89. At that time the question of industrial training was apparently paramount in the minds ‘of the authorities and the Legislature? – Yes, no doubt, under the necessities of the time.
90. That was a paramount idea in the mind of the Government? – Yes.
91. You say that the desire for industrial training has not increased? – It has almost entirely ceased since. Now there are technical schools, and there is a better chance of teaching boys who are apprentices. We have always endeavoured to keep to a certain extent within the spirit of it by paying a master to teach the boys technical education, and they do some very good work there.
92. Do you know anything of the second grant that was issued on the 16th October, 1852?: – The grant we are acting on is the first grant. I never heard of any second grant until you just told me.
93. The trustees do not recognise any second grant? – We are perfectly ignorant of its existence. I think Mr. Domett must have made a mistake.
94. Are the accounts of the trust forwarded to the Education Department or to the Synod? – There is a return sent in every year to the Education Department. The audited accounts are laid before the Diocesan Synod every year.
95. Mr Hogg.] Do the trustees occasionally visit this school? – Yes: the whole of the trustees were up there last Easter.
96. The trustees take an active interest in the administration of the endowment? – Yes. We have what is a very rare thing to meet with in the case of a trust. We have a business like clergyman who was trained in a bank to start with, and who became a clergyman afterwards. He has got a keen business head, and he lives on the spot. He has got all the business connected with the trust at his finger ends. Everything is reported to us, and we sometimes give him carte blanche.
97. How long are the leases generally for? – At present twenty-one years, with right of renewal for another twenty-one years. I think perhaps there are two renewals of fourteen years each. They run to forty-two years – recent leases to sixty years.
98. Is there any compensation for improvements? – No. Everything runs out at the end of forty-two years, or sixty years.
99. Do you know whether the lands have been subdivided at any time: has the demand for small sections increased? – Any land that has hitherto been used for dairy purposes or any larger sections that fall in – are always out up into smaller sections. Generally we put in a clause that there shall not be more than one house put on a section. We do not want to have the houses crowded there.
100. From your knowledge of the education carried on there, do you think that the object of the trust, which is set forth in the deed, “for the education of the children of other poor and destitute persons, being inhabitants of the islands of the Pacific Ocean,” do you think that object has been carried out? – I think it honestly has been carried out as far as possible under the circumstances. I do not know that we have gone into the highways and by – ways to get the children of paupers there-in fact, I do not think you could find them if you were to advertise for them – but there is no discrimination with regard to caste. Children of all social positions are there – industrial classes, shop-keeping, farming, and other classes – every class is represented there.
101. Do you think that the character of the education is such as was contemplated when the endowment was made? – I think when the endowment was made those three expressions were used to express the minimum, not the maximum. It is very difficult to say what was contemplated. I
15 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 114 [W. H. QUICK.
think that a man like Sir George Grey or Bishop Selwyn would not contemplate keeping the minimum down to simple teaching of reading and writing the English language. I believe it was contemplated giving industrial training then, because it was almost necessary for a young fellow to learn the use of tools, etc. You could not get apprenticed then. There was no technical school.
102. Apparently only £60 a year is expended on carpentry out of nearly £3,000 paid in salaries, &c? – Not more than half of this comes out of the endowment.
103. Do you think that is adequate for the industrial side of the school? – The adequacy is what the demand for it is. The question is, what would one suggest? It is adequate for the boys who want to learn carpentering. The boys are not made to learn it. If they want to learn it they can learn it. I think the adequacy must be according to the demand.
104. Have the trustees never considered whether any other kind of technical education besides carpentry or woodwork is required – No; in fact, that has been a difficulty in regard to all schools.
105. Mr. Lee.] Do you know whether all the land facing Victoria Avenue is leased? – No. I think there are some gaps at the top end, near St. John’s Hill.
106. Do you know whether the leases of that trust property have long to run? – They have only lately been on the market – that is, the residential leases.
107. The Chairman.] Do the trustees keep a minute-book? – Yes, and we are willing to produce it if it is asked for.
108. Are the trustees desirous of putting up a new building if it can be managed? – The present building has lately been improved. We have laid out between £600 and £700 upon it. We have put so much money into the building that we have no intention of rebuilding for some years – until it is necessary.
109. Is not the term “industrial training” nearest met by the definition of manual and technical instruction in Part V of “The Education Act, 1904,” section 169? – Manual instruction in secondary schools in that section sounds very like it. I may say that we have one master who teaches carpentry. If there was a demand for other subjects perhaps we might be able to do something in order to meet the demand. Carpentry seems to be the favourite subject wherever you go.
110. Is there any reason why part of the funds of the school should not be devoted to the education of girls? – The reason for that is a question of pounds, shillings, and pence for a new building. We should like to have double our income and do double our work. There is a girls’ high school close by, and a very popular school, I understand, it is.
111. Do you think the terms of the trust exclude girls? – I think girls are British subjects as well as boys, but you must cut your clothes according to the measure of your cloth.
112. Mr. Ngata.] I find that, exclusive of clothing and travelling-expenses, it costs a boarder £60 a year? – Quite that, I should think.
113. Does not that exclude a great many boys who would otherwise come under the terms of this trust – I mean the question of expense? – The school could not be carried on otherwise. Those are boarding fees. They are not education fees.
114. The boarding is £46 and the fees £12- roughly, £60 a year? – The endowment without the fees, would not permit of anything much being done. The boys going to Wellington College pay about the same amount.
115. Have the trustees never thought of running the boarding-school? – The trustees could not do it nearly as well as the masters.
116. The boarding-expenses at Te Aute cost about £25 a year, and that comes directly out of the trust fund? – I expect the boarding is rather different, is it not?
117. I suppose the boarding at Wanganui College would be classed as superior? – I should think so.
118. There is no actual discouragement to boys of a certain class? – Not the slightest.
119. But there are barriers nearly as effectual – the question of expense? – There is nothing to prevent a parent sending his boy to lodge elsewhere. It is assumed by us that the boarding fees run parallel with the fees of nearly every secondary school in the colony.
120. On the face of it the child of poor parents would have no chance at all at Wanganui College? – Unless he had a scholarship, or was a day boy.
121. Maori boys and boys from Melanesia would not have much chance unless they were day boys? – There are nearly always one or two Maori boys there.
122. Mr. Eliott.] How did this school become a secondary school? – I think it always has been a secondary school.
123. It is clear that the terms of the grant do not contemplate it being a secondary school? – I do not think it is clear, because the words in the Ordinance are used with regard to every school.
GEORGE HOGBEN further examined.
124. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to make a further statement to the Commission? – Yes, with respect to the cost of boarding in secondary schools. I was a master in a secondary school in England some years ago, and the cost of boarding the boys was within a fraction of a penny of 13s. 4d. per head per week. That included the proportion of the payment to the servants, and the proportion of the board of the masters, who were retained to supervise the establishment. I have had some experience of the cost of boarding boys in New Zealand, and I have come to the conclusion that was some years ago – that the cost of boarding boys in this colony is 14s. 2d. per head per week – that is, in the case of secondary schools. My experience has been this: that until you get twenty boys in the boarding-school you can scarcely make both ends meet. When you get to thirty you begin to get a definite profit. When you get up to sixty – my own opinion is that it will cost something like 15s. a week at the present time, but it may cost a little more in some cases. I do not think it is possible to board boys, even with a fair number of them, at less than £30 a year. It would be rather over that. In my opinion the master should be entirely free from the care or charge of boarders so far as relates to any financial» arrangements, but he should have a general supervision on behalf of the governors.
115 G. – 5.
ERNEST FREDERICK HADFIELD examined.
125. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a solicitor, practising in Wellington, and I am a son of the late Bishop Hadfield. I wish to submit to the Commission extracts from one or two letters sent to me by my late father. The following is a letter written by Archdeacon Towgood, which appeared in the Marton Mercury newspaper, 10th July, 1895: “Sir, – A letter appears in Monday’s Mercury bout the Industrial (Collegiate) School, Wanganui. It is temperately expressed, but, in my opinion, inaccurate and misleading. I accordingly saw the late Primate, who has known the institution from the beginning, and has in moments of danger defended it single-handed. My remarks are based on his information. (1.) The endowment of the 250 acres was not the provision of ‘our thoughtful legislators anticipating the future,’ &c. It was given before their existence by the Crown at the instance of Sir George Grey. (2.) The occasion of the gift was the efforts the English Church had made on behalf of education. At the same time gifts of land for the same reason were made to the Romans at Porirua, and the Wesleyans at Wellington, a grateful acknowledgment for services rendered, in 1852. (3.) In 1853 Sir George Grey’s secretary wrote by his orders to Archdeacon Hadfield to say ‘His Excellency the Governor has directed £1,000 to be paid over to you, to complete the erection of the building of the Church of England (the italics are my own) Industrial School on the north bank of the Wanganui.’ Through some mishap the £1,000 wasn’t paid over at the time, and on Archdeacon Hadfield applying for it in 1855 (New Zealand had then ceased to be a Crown colony) it was refused him. It has not been paid over to this day. (4.) The deed of gift states it was given ‘to George Augustus, Bishop of New Zealand, and his successors – i.e., the Bishops coming after him – among other purposes for ‘religious education,’ doubtless according to the tenets of the Church of England; Bishop Selwyn and his successors, according to their ordination vows, could teach no others, as the gifts to the “Wesleyans and Romans were for ‘ religious education, according to their tenets,’ it not being supposed they would teach any others. (5.) But in 1858 Bishop Selwyn got this clause altered by the Legislature (Act 58), substituting the words ‘General Synod trustees’ for ‘his successors,’ as the General Synod are the governing body in all trust matters in the Church of ‘ England in New Zealand; (6.) It would therefore appear that the land was given to the Church of England for certain purposes, and therefore not ‘for all creeds’ (which words, or their equivalent, are not in the trust deeds), except so far as English Church institutions are always open to those who care to use her teaching – and, indeed, parents of other denominations send their children to the Collegiate School. (7.) The value of the land has been made by expensive improvements. It is suburban land, and was offered by the Crown, before given to the English Church, for sale at £5 an acre sections, and, being then swamp and sand, not an acre was sold. (8.) ‘The Surplus Revenue.’ – It does not exist, and never has, there is, I believe, still a debt of £1,400 on it. The present buildings were built for the most part with borrowed money, and the money that keeps the school afloat is that paid by the boarders. 1. In 1853 Parson Nicholls, the first master appointed, drained and fenced a few acres of land, and on this drained land a school was erected in 1854. 2. In 1860 the school was burnt down, and collapsed from want of funds to rebuild it. 3 Trustees accordingly, managing to drain, fence, and let at low rentals certain sections, allowed funds to accumulate (1860 – 65). 4. In 1865 schoolroom was rebuilt and a commercial and grammar school started under Mr. Godwin. Schoolhouse was built in 1867. 5. Revenue of estate in 1865, £200 per annum, accumulated capital, £515. (9) When Dr. Harvey assumed management of the school he perceived that new buildings were an absolute necessity if the school were not to efface itself. He, I believe, lent the money, and from that time on this borrowed money the school has rapidly advanced, the money earned by an increasing number of boarders enabling it to pay its way,‘ but not a sufficient amount to pay the masters as they should be paid. It will be seen then that ‘surplus revenue’ is a hope of the future, and not an experience of the past, or present. (10.) Your correspondent says, ‘Up to the present time not a single destitute child has ever entered the walls of that institution.’ This is incorrect. In 1854 – 56 twenty-four Maoris were boarded, clothed, and fed; in 1856 to 1860 a lesser number owing to lack of funds. Since then the Maoris have preferred their own schools at Te Aute and Otaki,’ partly from the fact of these being specially their own, and partly from feeling occasioned by the Waitara war, and from their dislike to the industrial training that used to be the feature of the school. When the Maoris would not come, part of the small revenue was spent in supporting two Maori boys at Mr. Holmes’s school in Wellington; but this being declared to be an illegal appropriation of the funds, no more Maori boys were sent there, but the school is open to the Maoris at any time – there are scholarships which enable the children of poor parents to maintain themselves at school, and the cleverest boy the school ever had did, I believe, so maintain himself, and thus got an education otherwise out of his reach. As a matter of fact, too, every headmaster has generously taught boys for nothing. It is as a matter of law doubtful whether, ’ children of other poor and destitute persons ’ governs the preceding clause, or merely deals with its own clause, and confines its statement to the Native races of the islands of the Pacific Ocean. Anyhow, the last time the matter was brought up before Parliament there was no suggestion of the desirability of turning the institution into a charity school. (11.) As regards the teaching of the ‘destitute children of the Pacific Ocean,’ this has been found unworkable from the first. They do not come of themselves ; there are no funds to bring them; and, if brought, they would die from cold. Even Kohimaramara [Kohimarama], near Auckland, was found to be too cold for them, and the school there in consequence had to be given up. (12.) As regards ‘ industrial education,’ it was the feature of the school at first, and useful when a man had to be Jack of all trades, put up his home, or shoe his horse; but, as the colony advanced, and the various trades were organized and established, parents felt it was better to apprentice a boy in the usual manner if they wanted him to learn a trade thoroughly; anyhow, in the discussions in Parliament no fault has been found with the school on this score. At the same time the school possesses workshops where instruction is given to those who care to learn. (13.) It is all nonsense talking
G. – 5. 116 [E. F. HADFIELD.
about the public demanding an explanation from the trustees of their future intentions.’ The public have no more right to interfere than they have with the Wesleyan and Roman trust given at the same time, and for the same reason, a grateful acknowledgment by the Crown – not by Parliament, which did not then exist in New Zealand – of the services of their religious bodies to the Crown in the matter of education. General Synod is the only legal body the trustees have to report to, though as a matter of courtesy an annual report is sent by the trustees to the Diocesan Synod. The reporters of the various Wellington papers are present, and can publish verbatim, if they like, the report of any trust that is laid upon the table of the Synod. They do not do so, and, therefore, I suppose, they do not think the public want it. In conclusion, I may observe that at one time Sir William Fox, Sir Julius Vogel, and Mr. Ballance combined in Parliament to upset the grant. Mr. Ballance afterwards repented, and supported the school vigorously. But whether the grant were upset or not, it was admitted on all hands that several provisions of the trust could not be carried out, and there was no suggestion whatever of turning the institution into a charity school. Sir George Grey supported the school on the grounds of justice. – I am, &c., ARTHUR TOWGOOD.” On the 26th June, 1895, my late father wrote to me as follows: “The alleged departure from the terms of the trust is one of degree only. It is not alleged that the funds derived from the property are devoted to any other purpose than the education of youth, but only that the class apparently contemplated in the deed is now practically debarred from any benefit from it. Assuming this to be in some degree the case, the obvious explanation is that the funds at the disposal of the trustees would not enable them at the present time to carry on the school on any other system. Money has been borrowed to enable buildings to be erected, which must be repaid before an indigent class, whether English or Native, can be received into the school.” In forwarding me Archdeacon Towgood’s letter, my father wrote as follows: “On another occasion a Committee of the House of Representatives, of which the late Mr. Ballance was Chairman, investigated the state of the trust. All that was recommended was that more should be done to carry out the object of the trust. It was in consequence of this that the trustees after much difficulty (as trustees cannot mortgage) made an arrangement with Mr. Harvey, by means of which they were able to borrow money wherewith to erect the present buildings.”
GEORGE EDWIN ANSON examined.
126. The Chairman.] You are a medical practitioner, residing in Wellington? – Yes.
127. You are also one of the trustees of the Wanganui Collegiate School Endowment trust? – Yes.
128. When were you appointed? – In 1903.
129. Prior to that had you anything to do with the school? – In the old days I was second master there for five years. The period ranged from 1876 to 1884, although during part of that time I was at Home.
130. Who was the headmaster? – Mr. Saunders. I was also under Mr. Harvey for a year.
131. During the time you were teaching at the school, what was the general system of education? – At that time it was an ordinary classical, mathematical, and English education.
132. Was any attention given to the industrial side of the trust? – Not at that time.
133. When did the question of industrial training first come up? – I cannot tell you. It was during Mr. Empson’s time.
134. What is the nature of the industrial training in’ vogue at the school? – There is a carpenter’s shop and a chemistry laboratory.
135. Any drawing? – Only geometrical drawing, no mechanical drawing.
136. I suppose since you have been a trustee you have taken an interest in the school? – As much interest as I possibly could.
137. Have you paid attention to the question of the general health of the students? – Yes; I have watched it very carefully.
138. I would like to have your opinion on the sanitary condition of the school? – In my opinion it is very good indeed. Of course, there have been all sorts of rumours to the contrary: but the more rumours the more carefully I have attended to the matter. I cannot say the school is an unhealthy school. When I was at Wanganui the other day I went to Dr. Christie, who has been regularly attending the school, and he considers it one of the most healthy schools he has ever known.
139. Dr. Christie can give us information on this point? – Yes. There is no doubt about it, but at one time our dormitory space was not sufficient, and our windows were too small. That was reported upon, and we have done our very best to alter it. We put the work in hand during the last holidays, and I believe our new alterations have put that all right.
140. In the event of an epidemic breaking out or of sickness, is any report made to the trustees? – I do not think any official report is made. That is left entirely to the headmaster and the medical attendant. If there was anything serious we should hear of it. We have just these holidays put up a sick room with five beds, a detention room for doubtful cases, and a nurse’s room.
141. Have the trustees ever received any complaints from anybody in regard to the conduct of the school? – I do not think so. We have heard rumours. We have had no official representations.
142. There have been no official representations to the trustees in regard to the way in which the trust has been managed or performed? – No.
143. Do you think it would be desirable, if it could be done, to erect entirely new buildings on a different part of the estate? – Personally, I think it is not at all necessary now. I think it may be in ten years’ time. I do not think a wooden building that is only from twenty-five to thirty years old ought to be thrown away at present. We have been keeping it as much up to date as our funds would permit.
G. E. ANSON.] 117 G. – 5.
144. You think it would be an act of extravagance on the part of the trustees at present, even supposing they had ample means, to destroy the present buildings? – I do, at present.
145. You think they are quite satisfactory for their purpose, and will be so for some years to come? – I think they are serviceable, healthy, and sanitary buildings. Every year we are doing something to make them better. They were built in 1880.
146. Is there ample means of escape in the event of fire? – Yes. There are ropes from every window, and the boys have fire practice.
147. They had their own station there? – Yes, a fire-hose.
148. Do you know anything about the high school that occupies a portion of the estate? – I do not know much about it. I know the land is let at a small rental.
149. With regard to the estate generally, it comprises 250 acres, and lies within the Borough of Wanganui, and, I suppose, it has been the desire of the trustees to get as much revenue from it as possible: what steps have the trustees taken of late years to attain that object? – Well, of late years there have been one or two alterations in the way of putting the leases up to auction, which was not done before.
150. A very large portion of the estate still remains to be dealt with? – Yes; unfortunately, we are very short of money indeed, and we cannot make the roads necessary in any subdivision of the estate. That hampers us completely.
151. In order to cut the estate up, under the Municipal Corporations Act, you have to lay off certain roads, 66 ft. wide, and have to metal and drain them, and so forth, and that involves a large expenditure of money? – Yes, and we have no funds for the purpose.
152. Of course, after the roads are made and metalled the Corporation takes them over, and the maintenance of the roads then falls on the borough? – Yes.
153. And until that is done the cost falls on the trustees? – Yes, and that has been the difficulty.
154. I suppose the trustees have also considered the question as to whether they can dedicate a portion of the estate for roads? – We did get an opinion on that point.
155. In your opinion, could the estate or portions of the estate have been let on building leases if efforts had been made in that direction? – I think Mr. Maclean and Mr. Beckett will be able to give better evidence on that point than I can. They have always managed the leases.
156. There was a considerable land-boom in Wanganui two or three years ago? – Yes, and the opposite now. That is why we thought it advisable to wait with some building leases that we had.
157. You admit, if you had the funds, it would be advisable to push the land into the market? – Yes; I think that is the key to the whole question, although I do not know that this is the best time to do so.
158. Do you not think it would be desirable from a business point of view, instead of reserving the frontages along the Avenue for ornamental purposes, to cut them up into building allotments and let them on long building leases? – I do not think we are keeping them for ornamental purposes.
159. I suppose you admit the Avenue frontages are the very best? – Yes.
160. And if they were let on lease with some restriction as to the kind of building, they would bring in a very large revenue indeed? – Yes. That is why some wanted us to give up our present buildings and build on the other side of the railway.
161. Have you ever considered the question of exchanging for the reserve on St. John’s Hill? – We have very often considered it. The idea was to get a more healthy situation. I do not think it would be so convenient for the day boys.
162. I suppose that is not worth considering as against the benefit from a health point of view? – I think it would be a very good thing, but since I found we could not make the exchange without an Act of Parliament I did not go to see the site for myself. I think the Wanganui Valley is rather enervating, but I protest against it being called unhealthy, which is a very different thing. No doubt it would be a good thing if the exchange could be effected, because it would be better to get the more bracing site. I have not actually investigated the subsoil there. 163. I believe the general physique of the boys is very good indeed – It is excellent. They have a very fair amount of manly sports, and they go in for a large amount of Sandow exercises.
164. It has been said in regard to all the schools that the matter of sports has been overdone: what is your opinion about that? – I do not believe it is much overdone. I think it is a very hard thing to actually strike the happy mean.
165. Mr. Hogg.] Has any fund yet been created from which you could improve the land? – We have never had anything to lay by.
166. Then, if you thought it desirable to make roads and streets, and so on, you never had the means? – No.
167. Have you ever considered the desirability of providing in your leases for compensation for improvements? – I believe so. I have not a copy of the lease at present. I am not sure on the point. Mr. Quick has managed the legal business in connection with leasing.
168. Is the school subject to inspection? – Not regular inspection. We have often got one or two examiners from outside, and we like it if we can get it.
169. You never asked any Government Inspector to visit it on behalf of the Education Department? – I think the Inspector-General of Schools goes every year. Of course, that is the sort of thing we welcome.
170. You invite the Education Department to send its Inspectors there? – We should be very pleased to do anything that would tend to the efficiency of the school.
171. Mr. Lee.] One of the terms of the trust was that the school was supplied for industrial training: considering the advance that has now been made in teaching in technical schools, do you think that the carpentry that now is taught is enough to satisfy the intention of the deed? – Of course, it is a disputed point as to how much industrial training there should be at the school.
G. – 5. 118 [G. E. ANSON.
172. From what you know of the requirements of the day and the instruction given in technical schools, should you say that the industrial training specified in the deed is fairly met by the mere carpentry classes? – Well, I confess I find that a very hard question to answer, because I really do not know what standard of industrial training there ought to be. Personally, I am rather opposed to too much industrial training. The industrial training I should like to see given there would be chemistry and physics, including electricity, light, and heat, both practical and theoretical. Although we are doing the very best we can with the funds at our disposal, I confess we have not got the laboratories I should like to see.
173. Do you think also that the objects of the trust have been carried out faithfully in regard to the education of boys of all races? – I think we admit any who apply of all races.
174. You do not know of any cases in which boys have been thrown out simply because they have been of another race? – I do not know of any case, and I do not think that would be done.
175. Do you think it would be better if the headmaster were relieved of the cares and expense of carrying on the boarding establishment? – Yes, I do.
176. Is the school taught as a uniform grammar school, or does it in any sort of way specialise so as to have, for instance, a classical side or a commercial side? – No. Hitherto it has been taught as an ordinary grammar school. To specialise we should require a larger staff of masters, and we cannot afford that at present.
177. Mr. Eliott.] Was the school in your time conducted as an ordinary secondary school? – Yes.
178. Are the fees higher or lower now? – We raised them a little bit the other day. I cannot remember how they compare with the fees in my time.
179. It has been represented to us that these high fees at present charged are prohibitory to the class of persons for whom the grant was intended? – But the grant was not only for poor and destitute children. There were others besides. The grant makes no reference to poverty in mentioning “our subjects of all races.” I have always read the grant to be “for the children of our subjects of all races, and of other poor and destitute persons inhabiting the Pacific Islands,” meaning that there may be other poor and destitute inhabitants of the Pacific Islands, not “ our subjects,” but who should be admitted to the benefit of our endowment.
180. Have boys of poor and destitute persons ever been refused admittance to the school? – Not that I know of.
181. Do you know whether people well off have had their children educated there free of cost? – I have never heard of it. I do not think well-to – do people pay nearly enough. I believe myself the fees are very much less than for any school of the same sort at Home. Of course, I think the boys of poor and destitute people should be admitted free as far as they possibly can. I know Mr. Empson has let in a great many.
182. Do you know if any were admitted free in your time? – Mr. Harvey used to admit them. I think, speaking from memory, he admitted four in the upper school and four in the lower.
183. Mr. Hogben.] You are no doubt aware of the various opinions expressed lately as to the amount of cubic space necessary for each pupil in dormitories: you are doubtless aware the estimate varies from 600 up to 1,200 cubic feet? – Yes.
184. Do you think that the dormitories at Wanganui conform with the minimum of 600 cubic feet? – I am sorry to say I have not got the figures of each dormitory. We have gone into that and were not satisfied with them, and we had them enlarged during the holidays. I do not know until I measure them whether we come up to the point. Of course, it seems to me that a great deal of latitude ought to be given to these formulae as a rule. It depends very much on how much the windows are kept open. I should guess now that they had 800 ft. or 900 ft.
185. In regard to the question of manual and technical work, these are the subjects defined by the Manual and Technical Instruction Act: Elementary chemistry, elementary physics, elementary botany, and elementary geology, and one condition laid down is that each pupil must give to individual practice at least half the total time devoted to instruction. Is that what you meant by your reference to chemistry and physics being subjects of practical instruction? – I believe we do not give that proportion to individual practice. I wish we did. I think there ought to be- quite half the time devoted to practical, work. Our laboratories do not at present give sufficient room for this.
186. The Chairman.] Is there any statement you wish to volunteer in regard to the trust? – No I do not think so.
THOMAS FANCOURT examined.
187. The Chairman.] You are Archdeacon of the Diocese of Wellington? – Yes.
188. Were you at one time a trustee of the Wanganui College? – Yes, but I have not come here to appear as a trustee.
189. You come here in response to a letter you received asking you to produce any documents in the custody of this diocese in regard to the Te Aute trust? – Yes.
190. What documents have you? – I have in my possession and produce a minute-book containing minutes in regard to the Te Aute and Wanganui School Endowment trusts.
FRIDAY, 8TH JUNE, 1906.
he Chairman: I have received a letter from the Minister of Lands, dated 6th June, 1906, referring to the Wanganui endowment file. At the last meeting of the Commission I read a letter which I had received from the Government in regard to that file, and in reply the Commission wrote saying that all they desired to see was the correspondence relating to the issue of the first grant – the correspondence bearing on the cancellation or alleged cancellation of the grant, and the issue of
119 G. – 5.
a new grant. In reply, I have received the following letter from the Minister: “Wellington, 6th June, 1906. – The Chairman, Te Aute Trust Commission, Wellington. – Sir, – I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the letter of even date from the Secretary to the Commission, informing me of the papers you desire to see referring to the Wanganui School endowment, and in reply thereto I beg to inform you that Mr. Flanagan, of the Lands Department, will produce certain papers before the Commission incident to the issue of the grant – WM. HALL-JONES (for the Minister of Lands). – P.S. – l do not understand the reference to section 9 of the Commissioners Powers Act as applied to the Crown.” Mr. Flanagan is in attendance, and we will take his evidence now. I may say that we do not regard it as part of our business to inquire into the validity of the grant or of any grant. What we want to get at is: what are the true words of the trust, and in order to enable us to do that we want to find out which is the grant now in existence. I may say that I have seen Mr. Flanagan, and the mystery about the second grant is pretty well cleared up. I understand the position was this: there was some mistake in the linkages on the plan in the description of the endowment, and it was thought desirable to cancel the original grant and issue a new grant rectifying the mistake. A new grant was issued; but in the new grant, although the linkages were correctly given, the gentleman who engrossed the grant omitted certain words that were part of the original trust. As far as we can see, we have got to take the first grant as truly expressing the trust; we have to read into the second grant the words that were accidentally omitted from the first grant.
FREDERICK WILLIAM FLANAGAN examined.
1. The Chairman.] What is your official position? – Chief Draughtsman, Head Office, Lands and Survey Department.
2. You have received instructions from the Minister of Lands to produce certain correspondence, &c., relating to the Wanganui industrial endowment, which correspondence has been asked for by this Commission? – Yes, I produce the correspondence [Correspondence produced].
3. There are some letters and documents which the Government decline to produce? – That is so.
4. I understand that the Government declined to produce the same documents to a Committee of the House of Representatives some years ago? – Yes.
5. Do you produce a copy of the plan of the endowment? – I got a copy made.
6. This is a true copy of the original plan upon which the Crown grant was issued? – It is the only original plan that we possess. It is dated October, 1852, and is signed by the surveyor who made the survey, and the late Sir Francis Dillon Bell, who was Commissioner of Lands at the time [Exhibit No. 47].
AUBREY GUALTER examined.
7. The Chairman.] What are you? – An accountant, and I am secretary to the board of trustees of the Wanganui Collegiate School. I have been secretary for two years. I was appointed by the board of trustees. My salary for acting as secretary is £20 a year. My duties are to look after the minutes and correspondence, and keep the petty expenses in Wellington. There is no bank account kept in Wellington. I produce the book showing the state of the petty cash account. That account is fed by drawing on the Wanganui account.
8. You disburse these petty expenses out of your own pocket, and when it gets to a certain amount you get a cheque from Wanganui? – Yes.
9. Will you furnish us with a copy of this account? – Yes [Exhibit No. 48].
10. You have nothing whatever to do with the collecting or receiving of rents from the endowment? – No; they are collected at Wanganui, and the books are kept by Mr. Liffiton and the headmaster.
11. Do the trustees meet regularly in Wellington? – No, only when there is any business to do.
12. Are the accounts which are paid out of the trust funds forwarded to the trustees here to be passed? – No; the accounts have been previously passed by the trustees, then they are paid in Wanganui, and are reported on again.
13. You draw on Wanganui for your salary? – Yes. Mr. Liffiton receives the rents, and is paid 5 per cent. commission on them. Of course, he does other work. He gets no salary, but the 5 per cent. on the rents collected.
WANGANUI, MONDAY, 11TH JUNE, 1906.
The Chairman handed in a copy of the following correspondence with Archdeacon Williams in re cattle referred to in his evidence before Select Comimttee [Committee] of Legislative Council in 1875
Te Aute Commission, Wellington, 8th June, 1906.
DEAR SIR, – By instructions from the Te Aute Royal Commission, I enclose an extract from the evidence given by the Venerable Archdeacon Williams before a Select Committee of the Legislative Council in 1875, relating to certain cattle belonging to the trust at the time the Archdeacon took the estate as tenant of the trustees. This evidence has only been brought before the Commissioners since they came to Wellington, and they were therefore ignorant of the same when they took the Archdeacon’s evidence at Napier. The Commissioners suggest that the extract be sent to the Archdeacon in order that he may make his comments thereon.
The Commissioners would like to know from him – (1) the number, &c., of cattle taken over; (2) what became of them; (3) what was their value; (4) what became of the money.
Kindly place this letter and enclosure before the Archdeacon, and send his comments, &c.., to us at Wanganui as early as possible. We leave for Wanganui to-morrow (Saturday) morning and will probably remain for about three days.
Yours, &c.,
R. A. LOUGHNAN, Secretary.
J. B. Fielder, Esq., Managing Trustee, Te Aute School Trust, Napier.
G. – 5. 120
Enclosure.
85. The Chairman.] You stated in your evidence in 1869 that there were some cattle there occasionally before it was laid down in grass. Does that state of things still continue? – That was only to meet the then existing state of circumstances. They were only grazing in the summer when the fern was growing. They were removed during the winter months.
86. Hon. Mr. Russell.] What became of those cattle? – I followed the advice given me by the Hon. Mr. Russell, Bishop Abraham, and others, and retained them in my own hands. The proceeds were appropriated to public purposes.
87. How were the proceeds appropriated? – In educational and charitable purposes. I do not think I am called upon to state particulars.
Te Aute, 11th June, 1906.
DEAR SIR, –
I have received through Mr. Fielder your letter of the 8th instant, together with enclosed extract from evidence given by myself before Select Committee of the Legislative Council in 1875, relating to certain cattle said to belong to the trust.
In reply, I have to state that the cattle referred to were not the property of the trust. They belonged to me exclusively. This is clearly implied in the extract under notice. You will observe that I declined to state particulars as to the appropriation of the proceeds. Had it not been clearly understood that the cattle were my own private property, my refusal to answer would have been challenged [challenged] as the Council had an undoubted right to know all particulars concerning the trust property. The terms “belonging to the trust” and “taken over by the trust,” which occur in your letter under reply are thus seen to be erroneous.
The facts were briefly as follows: The cattle in question, a small mob of about thirty or forty head, were pastured elsewhere during the winter; but on the summer months, with the object of improving the land, they were turned on to the school property to assist in eating down the growing fern. With the same object in view, I offered to take other cattle from neighbours, but my offer was declined.
As regards the proceeds, they were expended at my own discretion in charitable and educational purposes, and in the general furtherance of my work in the district.
I am, &c.,
SAMUEL WILLIAMS.
P.S. – I may add that there were never any cattle belonging to the trust? – S. W.
R. A. Loughnan, Secretary, Te Aute Trust Commission, Wanganui.
Mr. E. N. Liffiton and Rev. Mr. Maclean appeared on behalf of the trustees of the Wanganui Industrial School Trust Estate.
Mr. Hone Heke, M.H.R. (Northern Maori District): I desire to give evidence before the Commission, and I also desire to point out that I am acting on behalf of some Natives of Wanganui who are interested in this question.
The Chairman.] You appear on behalf of the Wanganui Natives, and have been instructed by them?
Mr. Heke: Practically so. I desire to name some of them. There is Mete Kingi, who has sent in a communication to the Acting-Premier in regard to this matter. He has been appointed by the Wanganui Natives to appear and give evidence, and there are several other Natives who also wish to give evidence. Dr. Buck has also asked to give evidence. Mr. Donald Fraser, who has lived amongst the Natives in the Rangitikei district for the last forty years, also desires to tender evidence. I make this statement because I am leaving for Wellington by the midday train. I intend to return in three or four days, and will be happy to give my evidence then, or I can give my evidence on the return of the Commission to Wellington.
The Chairman: We will endeavour to meet your convenience as far as possible.
Mr. G. Hogben: I am here to assist the Commission as far as lies in my power, and will be prepared to give evidence on behalf of the Education Department.
The Chairman stated the terms of the original trust, and the Commission was read by the Secretary of the Commission.
CHARLES EVAN MACKAY examined.
1. The Chairman.] You are Mayor of the Borough of Wanganui? – Yes.
2. You tender your evidence as a private citizen? – Yes. I have received no instructions from the Corporation as to appearing. I merely desire to give evidence as to the way in which the trust estate has been administered – that is to say, as to the way in which the land comprising the trust property has been administered. I think the feeling of the majority of the people of Wanganui is that the estate has not been satisfactorily administered – that neither the town nor the trust has got the advantage from the estate which they should have done, considering its value ’and its adaptability for letting purposes. The estate consists roughly of some 250 acres, which is nearly a quarter of the area of the Borough of Wanganui, in which the land is situated. It is all level land, admirably adapted for building-sites. It has a long frontage to the main street of Wanganui; in fact, on every side it is bounded by a public street. I consider it is a great pity that the estate has not been roaded and subdivided, and put upon the market on building-leases. If that had been done, I have no doubt a great part of it would have been built on, and would have been bringing in a good revenue to the trust. As it is, it chokes the, growth of the town in the direction in which it is most natural for the town to spread, and it forces people who desire to get land for building-sites to go outside the borough and take sections there. Some three years ago the demand for land increased very materially here – from three to four years ago. If they had then put up the land of this estate upon proper building-leases, I feel certain it would have gone off very well. I understand that there are difficulties in the way – that an Act of Parliament
C. E. MACKAY.] 121 G. – 5.
would be required to enable the trustees to spend money in roading, and, what would probably be necessary, to borrow money for that purpose. But I feel certain that if the trustees had applied for such an Act they would not have had any difficulty in getting it passed. It is apparent that something must be done soon. The present buildings, I understand, are inadequate for the number of students who attend the school. Not merely so, but the buildings are getting old, and are not so well adapted for their purpose as they used to be. I think it is recognised that shortly the school will have to be rebuilt, and it has always seemed to me that the proper thing to have done would have been to have provided for the cutting – up of the estate and putting it on the market, at the same time getting power to borrow for that purpose. I do not think there would be any difficulty in getting an Act passed for that purpose. With regard to the management of the estate, I believe that it should be under a board of management in Wanganui itself, and not as at present managed from Wellington. As it is, the control is now under a board of trustees; in Wellington. I believe it is the general opinion that the management should be vested in a Wanganui body, and not a Wellington body. A local body would be more familiar with the circumstances; they are on the spot, and they would know better what is required to be done than any Wellington body can know. Of course, there has always been a representative of the trustees here, but at present I understand they have altered that somewhat. Until recently, I believe I am correct in stating, Mr. Liffiton has acted with full power. Now I understand that Mr. Liffiton has some part of the control, and the Rev. Mr. Maclean has other matters within his jurisdiction. If that is so, I think it is a mistake to divide authority like that. For the purposes of the trust there should be one person or body to whom one could look for everything.
3. In other words, the trustees should be local men? – Not that all the trustees should be local men, but the managing trustees should be local men. At present, if a lease is required all the deeds are prepared in Wellington. I believe that some years ago they were prepared in Wanganui, but now, I understand, they are all prepared in Wellington. That in itself is a disadvantage. Of course, this is a small matter compared with the administration of the trust. But I certainly think the administration of the trust should be vested in a Wanganui body, and not in a Wellington body. With the view of assisting the Commission I have instructed the Town Clerk to prepare a return showing what has been done with a borough reserve situated alongside – and just the same nature as the Wanganui College property – a property known as Smiley’s paddock which was cut up for building purposes some years ago. I propose to put before the Commission a statement showing what revenue the borough derived from it before it was cut up, and what revenue it now derives from it, and how that land has been built upon since it has been cut up.
4. What are the terms of the borough leases? – Forty-two-year leases. I shall furnish the Commission with a form of the lease.
5. Did those leases have any purchasers? – Yes, the leases went off well. They have all been taken up, and they have now all been built on.
6. Can you say what was the area? – No, I could not tell you exactly what was the area of Smiley’s paddock, but the return prepared by the Town Clerk will show that. That return will also give the total rents, the number of houses erected on the land; it will also show the cost of reading, surveying, &c.
7. Of course, you know the school trustees have no power to raise money for the purposes of roading? – I understand that.
8. In order to form streets, the trustees will have to arrange with the borough under the Municipal Corporations Act? – Yes.
9. That means, they have got to form streets, metal them, form footpaths, and put in drains before the borough will take them over? – Yes.
10. I suppose the borough would be prepared to fairly consider any proposal made to them on that subject? – Yes; I have no doubt such a proposal would get fair consideration.
11. If the estate was cut up and leased, and was covered with houses, the borough would get a large increase in revenue from it in the way of rates? – Yes. I understand, though, that the advocates of rating on the unimproved value will demand another poll here. If that is carried the increase would not be so great.
12. Does this estate pay borough taxation? – Yes, they pay taxes, except this: that they claim to be exempt under the Rating Act in respect to 4 acres on which the school stands. There is a dispute as to their liability to pay rates on 4 acres connected with the school, in regard to which they claim to be exempt. Of course, the school-grounds cover a good deal more than 4 acres, but it is a question whether 4 acres should be exempt.
13. Have you heard any proposals or suggestions that the reserve at the top of the hill might be exchanged for a piece of land belonging to the trust alongside the racecourse, Public Domain, cricket-ground, and so forth – a new college to be built on the top of the hill? – I have heard no such suggestion.
14. I suppose that is a matter that would be considered by the borough? – We would consider it, but whether we should agree to the suggestion I cannot say.
15. Do you know anything about the other church reserves on the Victoria Avenue – the church reserves owned by Wesleyans, Presbyterians, and the Roman Catholic Church? – Yes; each of these bodies has a reserve on the Victoria Avenue.
16. Do you know the terms of their trust? – No. I believe they vary, except that they are generally for church purposes.
17. You do not know whether they are also for educational purposes? – I do not think so. A good deal of the Catholic property has been bought at various times, and was not included in the original grant.
18. What have you to say as to the Wanganui Collegiate School itself? – I think the school is an institution of which we are all proud.
19. The discipline at the school and the conduct of the students are good? – Yes.
16 – G. 5.
G. – 5. 122 [C. E. MACKAY.
20. Mr. Hogg.] Can you tell us the estimated value of this property at the present time? – It is a large block. Some of it is practically suburban land, and it would be very puzzling to put a value on it. It all depends on whether you could get a purchaser for it. Very different values might be put upon it. But, taking it by and large, I think £500 an acre would be a reasonable estimate – a very low estimate.
21. Do you think it would fetch that? – I am certain it would fetch that in the open market. It is difficult to give an estimate on the spur of the moment. I think I have put it on the low side.
22. If an Act were passed to enable the trustees to borrow, do you think there would be any difficulty in raising money on debentures on easy terms? – Not the slightest.
23. You think the value of the property is so great that plenty of money could be raised for the purpose of improving it? – Yes.
24. Has any offer ever been made by the borough, or the people themselves, to induce the trustees to take those steps? – Of course, it has been understood all along that it would be advantageous for all purposes that something should be done, but the trustees never seemed to care to go to Parliament for an Act.
25. Do you know whether any petition has been presented to them, or have any resolutions been passed at a public meeting? – I cannot say. I have only been in Wanganui four years. I may say that I believe the trustees have made sporadic efforts to increase the settlement on the estate, but the borough has always insisted on some proper scheme of roading being carried out.
26. But they have never made any efforts to get power to raise money? – No, not as far as I know. I think that every one in Wanganui agrees that the estate has not been administered financially as well as it might have been – that is, quite apart from the educational aspect.
27. Are there many leased lands in Wanganui at the present time? – Yes; a large area of the borough consists of borough reserves which are leased.
28. In the case of borough sections upon which good buildings have been put, is it common for those lands to be leased? – Yes, very good buildings have been erected on borough leases.
29. You have no difficulty in finding tenants for the borough leases? – Not the slightest.
30. Are any of these lands in the centre of the town? – None of them are so near the centre of the town as the lands of the Wanganui College trust, except one small block. The Wanganui College trust has about half a mile frontage to the main street of the town. The borough endowments form the town belt – they skirt the borough.
31. You have no hesitation in saying that if the Wanganui School trust land were improved and put into the market there would be no difficulty in getting more revenue from it? – No. But there was a great mistake made in not taking action some four years ago, when there was an even greater demand for land than there is now.
32. You are convinced that this land is not put to the best account? – I do not think anybody could suggest that it was. When you see beautiful building sites leased for grazing-paddocks it stands to reason that it has not been dealt with to the best advantage.
33. You say that it represents nearly a quarter of the most valuable land in Wanganui? – Nearly a quarter of the area of the whole borough.
34. If that was in the hands of a borough or a local body, would it be possible to make really excellent use of the money for beautifying the town, &c? – I am sure the borough could always do with more money. If we had that estate in our hands no doubt it would be made good use of.
35. Do you think it would be possible to dispense with rates altogether if the borough had it in their own hands? – I doubt that. Like most boroughs, we have a fairly large amount to pay yearly for interest. The interest the borough has to pay amounts to about £7,000 per annum. It is more than that, I think, now. That, of course, is so much dead-weight to be lifted before we can use any money for the benefit of the borough.
36. What I am now suggesting would be an entire departure from the trust; but supposing the trustees elected to make this trust over to the inhabitants of Wanganui for public purposes – for education and other purposes – for beautifying the town, &c., could the rates be very materially reduced, and would every institution in the borough be very much improved? – I feel certain of that. Of course, as far as the borough is concerned, it would benefit largely if the estate were cut up, even if it were kept in the hands of the trustees, because the rating-value would be so largely increased.
37. What is done with the land at the present time? – Part of it is leased for building purposes. A large area is used in connection with the school, and, so far as I know, a large part of it is only let for grazing.
38. Then, this is the case: that land which is splendidly adapted for building purposes is being simply used for grazing? – Yes, as far as a large area of it is concerned, that is the case. It is all beautifully adapted for building purposes.
39. In consequence of that you consider that Wanganui is being to some extent hampered in its growth? – I consider it checks the growth of the town in its most natural outlet.
40. What is the borough rate? – ls. 6d. general rate, and 8d. special rate – total, 2s. 2d.
41. How is this estate rated – the acre or the foot? – It is rated in different areas. Each lessee pays rates.
42. The area that the trustees part with is rated, and thus the revenue of the borough would be increased if more of the estate was leased? – Yes. The rating-value would rise.
43. What is about the letting-value of that portion of the estate where the College buildings stand – how much per foot? – I could not state exactly, but I should say you could let where the College stands at something like £1 10s. per foot.
44. It would be better, you think, to have the College removed and let the frontages: you think these College buildings are standing on too valuable land? – Yes, I think they are.
45. Do you know anything about the school fees? – I do not know exactly what they are.
C. E. MACKAY.] 123 [G. – 5.
46. Do you know what revenue is at present derived from the estate? – I have some rough idea only – somewhere about £1,000.
47. It amounts to about £1,200 a year? – So I have heard.
48. If you value the land at £500 per acre for 250 acres, that represents about 1 per cent.? – I do not think it is more.
49. Mr. Ngata.] Will the statement that is to be prepared by the Town Clerk show the expenses of roading? – Yes; I have directed him to include the expenses for surveying and roading.
50. As to your suggestion for a local board of management: what advantage would a Wanganui Board have over one located at Wellington? – For one thing, they would be on the spot; and for another thing, I suppose, the members would be citizens of Wanganui, and would, therefore, have a keener personal interest in seeing the estate put to its best possible use.
51. Is that the only defect in the present constitution? – Of course that is one great objection. I am only voicing my own personal opinion in saying that I do not believe that church officials are the best possible trustees for such an estate.
52. The Chairman.] Why not? – Because they are not men of business.
53. Mr Ngata.] You are practically making two suggestions – you want the managing board located at Wanganui, and you want it to consist mainly of business men – Yes.
54. The Chairman.] With regard to the question of streets, you remember the Liverpool Extension? – Yes.
55. Had the trustees any difficulty in arranging with the Borough Council about that street? – Of course, I was not on the Borough Council then. There was a good deal of negotiation over it, but, so far as I know, the borough was not unreasonable.
56. Has the Borough Council ever given a penny towards the construction of the street? – I do not believe it has
57. Did the Council not insist that that street should be formed and metalled, and footpaths made, and drains laid down before the Council would allow it to be opened as a public street? – Yes, and I believe the Council was quite justified in so insisting.
58. Although the Borough Council benefited very largely (in the way of additional rates) by the cutting- up of the estate, it would not contribute a single penny towards the formation of the roads? – No; and supposing a private individual cuts up his land to put it on the market, the Council never assists him in any way.
59. But the Council maintains the roads afterwards? – Yes.
60. Mr. Liffiton.] I would like you in making out the return for Smiley’s paddock to include separately the cost of the gas-laying, the water-laying, the cost of the footpaths, the cost of metalling, and also the cost of metalling that portion of Purnell Street that abuts on Smiley’s paddock, because I think it would be of a great advantage to the Commission to have this evidence? – If you will supply me with the particulars you require I will see that the borough officials furnish them.
61. Will you also supply the Commission with a return of the area of borough land that is let for grazing purposes, the area of borough land that is cut up and unlet, and the area of borough land that is still unroaded, as it will be very important for the Commission to know this in comparing the conduct of these properties? – Yes, I will endeavour to see that you get them.
62. Are you aware if any proposal from the trustees in regard to cutting up and roading the estate is now before the Borough Council? – So far as I know, none has ever been submitted. If one was submitted it was before I was on the Council. I have only been on the Council a few months.
63. Rev. Mr. Maclean.] Do you know that such a proposal has been before the Council for the last six months: I am astonished that the Council knows nothing about it? – I was only elected to the Council last November. I do not say it has not been before the Council, but it has not come before me.
64. Has nothing been done that the Mayor has never heard of it? – It has never come before me.
65. The Chairman.] Perhaps you will inquire about it and let us know later on? – Yes, I will do so. 66. I suppose in subdividing and leasing this estate the trustees would be competing with the Borough Council? – Not to a great extent, because a great part of our reserves have been leased now.
67. My point is this: if this estate had been thrown into the market on terms similar to the Corporation terms – when Smiley’s paddock was leased – there would have been competition between the borough and the trustees to a certain extent? – To a certain extent.
68. Then, it would be to the interest of the borough to have this land locked up as long as possible? – Oh, no; I would not say that.
69. Mr. Hogben.] Can you say what the total cost per chain would be of roading, and metalling, and draining, and making footpaths on such an estate as this trust’s lands? – Of course, it would vary according to the position, and so no [on]. I will instruct the Foreman of Works to be present, and give any information you may require on these matters.
70. Have you formed any idea of the total length of roading that would be required? – It would be considerable several miles, I should imagine.
71. On the idea that the roads on the other side of Victoria Avenue and fronting Ingestre Street are continued through the estate, with the exception of a certain block to be reserved for the immediate use of the school, have you any idea as to the length of streets required? – I could not tell you unless I worked it out.
72 Do you propose that the school should be moved away, and that the whole area should be cut up? – No I think the proposal was that the school should be shifted back from its present position on the Avenue to a part more at the back of the estate beyond the railway line.
73. Is that land suitable for such a purpose? – I think so. It is all flat land of course, I make no suggestion as to the removal of the school, but I understood the trustees had that in their mind’s eye.
G. – 5. 124
HENRY CLAYLANDS FIELD examined.
74. The Chairman.] You have lived in Wanganui a great number of years? – Yes, since 1851.
75. I understand you have been asked by the trustees to come here, and also by the Commission at the request of the trustees? – Yes.
76. You have prepared a statement of what you wish to say? – Yes; it is as follows: I was connected with the Collegiate School endowment at the very outset, and even with its origin. Thus I have always taken great interest in it, and noted its progress. Two of my sons were educated in the school, and one was for several years a master. I was slightly acquainted with Dr. Selwyn in England, before he became a bishop, and I renewed the acquaintance when I was in Auckland, before I came to Wanganui. On one occasion my wife and I spent the greater part of two days and the intervening night with the Bishop and Mrs. Selwyn at St. John’s College, Tamaki, Auckland. Thus the Bishop knew that I took interest in religious matters, and particularly in Church ones. In 1851 he appointed Dr. George Rees, our then colonial surgeon, and myself to act jointly with the Rev. Richard Taylor, as his agents in Church matters in this part of the colony. Our duties were to keep him informed of anything that would affect the Church, and take any action that he might direct. As the Church was not established here, like it is at Home, and we had thus no definite organization, the Bishop held the position of a “corporation sole.” He was the only Church member who had any legal status or existence, and everything connected with the Church had to be done by him, or in his name, and under his direction. When I was in Auckland he told me that he and Chief Justice Martin had been discussing a project for associating laymen with the clergy in the conduct of Church matters. This project ultimately took form, in the formulation of our Church constitution; but at that time we had not even a colonial constitution. One had been granted by the Home authorities, but had been suspended by Sir George Grey as not being suited to our colonial conditions, and it was not till about 1853 that the amended constitution was promulgated. The appointment of laymen to act jointly with clergy as agents was a first step towards self – government in the New Zealand Church. About the end of 1851 the Bishop came to Wanganui, and requested Dr. Rees and myself to meet him at the Putiki Mission Station, where he was then staying, and, of course, we did so. We discussed Church matters generally, and among other things, our Church school was mentioned. This school had till then been the only one available for settlers’ children in this part of the colony. It was conducted in a building situated on the site of the present Harbour Board Office, and which building had been the office of the New Zealand Company’s agent, and had been bought for the Church by the Rev. R. Taylor for school purposes. The school was at that time conducted by a retired sergeant of the 65th Regiment, named Twiss, at a salary of 15s. per week. About 10s. or 12s. of this arose from school fees of 3d. per week, paid in respect of the children, and the balance was provided out of our Church funds. Dr. Rees took great interest in education, and by his will he left the whole of his property to his wife, for her life, and afterwards to be applied to educational purposes in Wanganui. We knew that at that time the Government was setting apart small areas of land as educational endowments, and entrusting them to the several religious bodies; and in the course of our talk Dr. Rees asked the Bishop if he thought we could get such an endowment for our Church school. He said that if we could get 200 or 300 acres near the town, it might after a short time be leased, and so enable us to give our scholars a better education than they were then receiving. The Bishop said he thought such an endowment could be got, and that he would speak to Sir George Grey on the subject. At that time there was plenty of unselected land within three or four miles of the town, and several desirable sites were mentioned. No one thought of the present site, as it was all a deep swamp, with a sand ridge running through it, and with no out-let within a quarter of a mile. It had, in fact, been unsaleable for four or five years as suburban land at £5 per acre. No one would look at it. Several weeks later a letter came from the Bishop, saying that he had spoken to the Governor, and that we were to have the present endowment. We were very much disappointed, because we thought the land could not be made available for many years, – but on this being pointed out to the Bishop, he relieved our minds by telling us that he was prepared to find the money for draining and improving the property, so as to enable part of it to be leased, and afterwards to provide funds for school buildings. He desired us to see about getting some drainage done on his behalf. Mr. R. Park, the District Surveyor, kindly laid off the position of a main drain, and we let a contract for digging it and carrying it down the seaward side of Churton Street to the outlet of the swamp at Maria Place, a quarter of a mile away. Boundary drains were afterwards dug, where the boundaries were in the swamp, with a view to preventing the land from being flooded by the overflow of the adjacent lands. Another outlet of the swamp was afterwards provided by reopening and deepening an old Maori eel-cut just above the Boys’ High School; and as this trench crossed the cart-track then in use along the sand-ridge to St. John’s Hill, and no such thing as drainpipes were then obtainable, a rough culvert was formed by laying wine-casks, end to end, in the bottom of the trench, and then filling it in. This work was done soon after the Rev. Mr. Nicholls came here. When the Bishop again visited Wanganui about the end of 1852, as well as I can recollect, he told us that a clergyman who had conducted a large church school at Leeds, in Yorkshire, was coming to the colony, and he proposed that this gentleman should act as master of the school and curate of the parish. Till then we had had no stated clergyman in charge of the settlers. The Rev. R. Taylor was a Church missionary, and, of course, his duties concerned the Maoris. When at home at Putiki he used to come over on Sundays and conduct a service for the military at 10 a.m., and for the civilians at 11.30; but his duties often took him away, sometimes for several weeks together, and we were therefore glad of the prospect of a regular minister. It was proposed that the reverend gentleman’s stipend of £200 a year should be paid, half from the school funds, and half from the parish, an arrangement which suited us very well, as Church people were few in number, and mostly of the working-class. In fact, while the school contribution enabled us to have a resident clergyman sooner than we could otherwise have afforded to do
H. C. FIELD] 125 G. – 5.
so, our quota enabled the school to have the services of a master of a higher educational standard than otherwise. The Rev. Mr. Nicholls arrived here, I think, about the end of 1853, and resided at the lower end of the town till the school buildings were erected. These consisted of a six – roomed house for the master, and a schoolroom and quarters for the Maori pupils in rear of it. When the school was opened we closed our Church school and transferred the children to the new one, the school fees going to help the endowment. About a dozen Maori boys were also obtained as pupils, and these were boarded and clothed, as well as educated, out of the endowment funds; about half of the estate having then been let on improving leases. Bishop Selwyn held that in a colony where everything had to be built up ab initia, there was no place for idlers – every one ought to work. Thus at St. John’s College, which was carried on under his personal supervision, all the scholars were taught some useful business, such as carpentering, smithwork, and printing, and they cultivated the College land. The endowed school was started on the same lines, the master’s sons and the Maori pupils occupying part of their time in cultivating some of the school land. Vegetables and wheat were grown for the school use, and later on a windmill was erected to grind the wheat. Cows and pigs were also kept. The settlers whose children were being taught at the school, and who paid school fees, objected to their bairns being set to work in this way, particularly in company with Maoris, so their assistance had to be dispensed with. These people said that if they wanted their children to work they could employ them at home. People of other denominations were also very angry at the endowment having been placed in the hands of the Bishop; and some of them were mean enough to try to make the Maori boys dissatisfied, by telling them they were being made Mr. Nicholls’s slaves, and that the work they did was for his benefit. I heard this from the boys themselves. When harvest-time came, the boys were tempted, by the offer of wages, to run away from the school and go to help to gather in settlers’ crops. Mr. Nicholls sent his eldest son in search of them, and the lad, very foolishly told them that if they did not return at once the police would arrest them for stealing the school clothes. This so alarmed them that early next morning they threw the clothes into the school premises and fled home, and we tried in vain to get them back again, or to replace them by others. Thus for a time there were only two Maori men, with their sons, at the school, and one of these soon left. The other, a man named Hamuera, with his two or three sons, alone remained to represent the Maoris. Soon after this some Commissioners were appointed to report upon the school, and these refused to recognise the settlers’ children as pupils, on the ground that they were not maintained out of the funds of the endowment, and by confining their report to these Maoris made the school appear a failure. On this the trustees, who were Wellington residents – in my opinion, very foolishly – closed the school to settlers’ children, and tried to get more Maori ones. The unrest among the Maoris, arising out of the Taiporohenui land-league and the King movement, prevented this effort succeeding; and, as the master’s house and mill were burnt down shortly after, the whole school for a time fell to the ground. The common school had then been started, so that there was no need for the endowed one. Sir George Grey was at that time at the Cape, and when, on his return, he learned what had occurred, he was much annoyed. In conversing with the Rev. Mr. Nicholls and myself, he said that the Commissioners ought not to have reported in such a fashion, and that it was not necessary that all the pupils should be maintained out of the funds of the endowment. He said that the intention of the grant had been to establish a great educational institution like Eton, Winchester, and Westminster at Home; and he pointed out that in all these a certain number of the scholars were maintained out of the school endowments, but that the bulk of the pupils were sons of wealthy people, who paid liberally for their education. I asked him how the words “poor and destitute” came to be inserted in the grant, as I knew this caused misunderstanding, and he said these words referred only to Pacific-islanders, and he recited the words of the grant as if there were commas inserted before and after the words “poor and destitute persons,” so as to make them apply only to the islanders. Some years later, on the last occasion on which I had any conversation with Sir George Grey, he spoke still more strongly. I was going through a colonial exhibition in Wellington, when he recognised me, and we get into conversation. He inquired after various old Wanganui settlers, and as to the progress of the place. I mentioned what a success the Collegiate School was becoming under Dr. Harvey’s management, when he said he had already heard of it, and was very glad to do so; that of all the things which occurred during his governorship, the one of which he was most proud was the educational endowments then given; and then he added, “You and I will not live to see it, but the day will come when that Wanganui endowment will maintain a university for that part of the colony.” The conversation between Sir George Grey, the Rev. Mr. Nicholls, and myself took place in 1862, and shortly afterwards an arrangement was made whereby several boys and girls from Putiki were sent to Wellington to be educated. I think the boys were sent to Mr. St. Hill’s school at Crofton, and the girls to Miss Greenwood’s. This was cavilled at as being a misapplication of the school funds, it being held that the education must be given on the endowment. The children therefore returned to Wanganui, and the funds of the estate were allowed to accumulate till the present school was opened, on a small scale, under Mr. Godwin. After he left, Dr. Harvey, who was appointed as master in his stead, advanced money to build the present main building, since which the school has gradually advanced to its present position, under Dr. Harvey, Mr. Saunders, and Mr. Empson. A great deal has been said and written about so large a part of the estate being still used merely for grazing purposes, instead of being out up and leased as building-sites, so as to bring in a larger revenue. This is no doubt to be regretted; but I do not regard the trustees as responsible for it. Some years ago a parliamentary enactment was passed, providing that where estates were subdivided, the roads laid oil to give access to the several holdings must be formed and metalled before the local authority could be called upon to take control of them. This might be right enough as regards country estates; but it has always seemed to me that it was rather a straining of the Act to apply it to the case of opening up what were shown as streets on the original plan of the town. It is obvious that the
G. – 5. 126 [H. C. FIELD.
trustees have no funds properly available for road-formation, and that any money spent in this way means so much less available for education. Yet the Wanganui Corporation has not only put this construction on the Act, but it has insisted on the trustees also providing sewerage, &c. From 1859 to 1870 I was Clerk and Engineer to the old Town Board, and during that time the bulk of the rates derived from the estate was expended in works for its benefit. The drains in the estate were cleared out and deepened, and further cross-drains dug, to enable the rest of the property to be let. Since the Board developed into a Corporation nothing of this kind has been done; but the work has been thrown on the trustees and tenants, to the detriment of the endowment and lessening of the rateable value. In the same way, when roads bounding the estate were constructed, half the cost was debited to the estate and the other half to the properties on the other side of the roads. It has always seemed to me that the Corporation has always taken all it could from the estate, and done as little as possible for its benefit. I have always felt sure that if a fair arrangement had been made, whereby the Corporation had assisted the trustees in opening up the estate, it could have greatly benefited both the trust and the Corporation. Many other streets of the town were enclosed for years and used as grazing-land by owners of adjacent properties; but in all cases where these have been reopened, the Corporation has undertaken the formation, and it seems to me that this course was more imperative in the case of an estate, granted as an educational endowment, which would greatly benefit the town. Another objection which has been raised is that so few Maoris attend it. I have already mentioned the circumstances under which Maori attendance ceased; but besides this, till of late years, the Maoris had evinced no desire for education such as is given at the Collegiate School. They seem to prefer the inferior education obtainable at schools close to their own homes. Thus the Putiki Maoris send their children to the mission school – the Wangaehu ones to the Wangaehu School, and the Aramoho ones to the Aramoho School. The up-river Maoris send their children to the school at Raorikia, Koriniti, Hiruharama, and Pipiriki; and, so far as I have heard, the trustees have never raised any objection to a pupil of any of the above schools, who was intelligent and industrious enough to win a scholarship, being admitted to their school. Something. I notice, was said at Wellington about the endowment being used for boys only. For very many years there has been a Girls’ High School in town, and I think it is some fifteen years since the Girls’ College was started, and I do not see that any good could be gained by starting another on the estate in opposition to existing ones. Some people talk as if the school had been intended as an industrial one for paupers and criminals; but this not only was not the idea of the founders of the school, but such an institution would have been hotly opposed by the then inhabitants of Wanganui. I think Mr. Hogben underestimated the cost of secondary education. My fourth son, the present member for Otaki, won the Provincial Scholarship of £40 a year, tenable for three years at the Wellington College, and just as the term was expiring, he won the Rhodes Scholarship of the same amount, and tenable for an equal term, yet he cost me fully £30- a year while he was at the College. I think it was Mr. Ngata who spoke of the cost of sending a Maori boy to the school, and this would apply still more strongly to Pacific-islanders. Apart from the fact that there is the Norfolk Island School available for them, “poor and destitute” islanders could not send their children to New Zealand; and even if they could get them a free passage, they would send them to a Maori school at Auckland, not to the Wanganui one. Yet this absurd clause is in the grants for the Porirua, Papawai, and Kaikokiri endowments. It seems to me that it was meant at first for Auckland schools, and got copied into the grants for the others through sheer carelessness.
77. Are these statements substanially [substantially] true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge and belief and memory? – Yes.
78. Is there anything you wish to add to them? – No.
79. Have you given any evidence before a parliamentary Committee on this subject? – Not that I am aware of. I do not recollect having done so.
80. Do you not remember giving evidence before a Select Committee of the House of Representatives in 1879, as contained in J.-4, being the report of a Select Committee re the Wanganui Endowed School Bill? – I must say I do not recollect it. I might explain that my memory of long-ago events is much better than my memory of more recent events.
81. Do you remember that one of the prominent questions during that inquiry was whether the Bishop proposed to exclude from the school all children who did not belong to the Church of England? – No.
82. Do you remember Sir George Grey being asked what his intention was when he gave the grant? – I do not remember that. I do not remember anything about that Committee of the House. I may say I never heard of the Bishop wanting to exclude any one in that way. As I viewed the matter the mere fact of this endowment being given to the Bishop made it denominational, just in the same way as the endowments given to the Presbyterians and Wesleyans made them denominational; and any boy who went to that school would be taught on Church of England lines, although he might have been brought up as a Wesleyan or Presbyterian or Romanist. So far it would be denominational.
83. Do you remember Mr. Ballance’s Bill of 1879? – I recollect there was some talk about it.
84. Do you not remember going to Wellington and being examined on that Bill? – No. I may have been in Wellington, and been examined about it.
85. I suppose you will not dispute what took place? – Oh no, if the facts are on record.
86. I suppose you know that Sir George Grey was in the House when the Bryce Bill of 1876 and the Ballance Bill of 1879 were before the House, and that he spoke on the question? – Yes, I remember that. I used to see the reports in the newspapers.
127 G. – 5.
JOHN MORGAN examined.
87. The Chairman.] What are you? – I am a settler, resident in Wanganui.
88. You tender yourself as a witness and wish to make a statement? – If you will allow me, I will begin from the beginning, which is from 1853, I could mention a good deal in connection with the early history of the grant.
89. The Chairman.] We have that correspondence before us, and we take it that the trust is property set forth in the grant, and if anybody wishes to attack it the Supreme Court is open to them? – As I am not allowed to deal with the question of the validity of the grant, I will only say that there has never been a school established according to the terms of the trust. In looking over the list of students I can only see the name of one Maori. I maintain the trust has not been carried out in a proper manner. I also contend that a large portion of the land is in a worse state now than when I first saw it in 1853. I am speaking of the condition of the land itself. The land has never been properly managed.
90. Will you formulate your complaints against the trustees? – In the first place, the land is not drained. It is in a very bad state, and land that was once very fair land is now simply blowing sandhills, in consequence of the manner in which it has been leased.
91. Your first complaint is that the land has not been properly managed? – Yes.
92. What is your second complaint? – The way in which the land has been leased has caused a good deal of it to become blowing sands. I also contend that the school has never been established according to the terms of the grant.
93. You say that the school is not open to Maoris? – I do not know that, but there are no Maoris there to my knowledge. I would like to read the following letter from Bishop Selwyn, dated the 12th September, 1866: “SIR, – As I have ceased to be a trustee of the Wanganui Industrial School, I can do nothing by myself to secure a proper and useful administration of the trust. I find by the report of the trustees made to the General Synod in May, 1865, that the annual income was £200; accumulated capital, £515. The Public Grammar School in Auckland, also founded by Sir George Grey, has an annual income of £600, and accumulated capital £2,000, or more. But the Provincial Council have not yet seen their way clear to any plan for the foundation of a public school, and passed a resolution, I think two years ago, that the estate must be ‘nursed’ till a large capital has been accumulated. This leads me to think that there may be difficulties, of which at this distance I am no judge, which prevent the trustees from establishing any institution at present. The estate is held subject to any regulations which may be made from time to time by the General Synod. No regulations were applied for or issued at the meeting of the Synod in 1865. But the trustees are also subject to any regulations which may be made by the Standing Commission of the Synod. The simple course, then, will be for yourself, or any other person interested in the question, to forward a written memorial to me, as Chairman of the Standing Commission, stating your case, giving a copy of the document beforehand to the trustees of the Industrial School, in order that they may put in their answer. I will then bring the subject before the Standing Commission which meets frequently, and prompt attention will be given to the matter. My own private opinion is that, without any alteration of the terms of the trust, the industrial school estate may be made extensively useful ‘for the improvement of education in the District of Wanganui irrespective of creed or class.’ – Yours very respectfully, G. A., New Zealand.”
94. A public meeting was held before that, and afterwards was there not a petition sent to Wellington? – Yes, there was a great deal done; but we omitted to take the matter to the Supreme Court.
95. What have you to say now? – This grant comprises nearly a quarter of the area of the Town of Wanganui. There has not been a drain put through it. I could show you water lying on the surface of the land as it was fifty years ago. It is a menace to the health of Wanganui, and it is a bar to the progress of the town. I propose that the trust should be taken away from the trustees altogether.
96. And give it to whom? – To the Government or to the Borough Council, so long: as it can he made use of.
97. For what? – For building and general purposes, and for the benefit of Wanganui. I maintain it was ultra vires on the part of Sir George Grey to give that grant.
98. What is to become of the income? – Let the Government have it, or let the trustees: lease the land, the same as in the case of the Hospital leases.
99. What would you do with the income? – Maintain the school as was first intended.
100. What sort of school? – An industrial school.
101. For whose benefit? Who should be the students to attend the school? – Sir George Grey gave the land for the benefit, I believe, of the Native race and for the benefit of poor children, and it should be devoted to that purpose now. Although we know that the position of educational affairs has altered since Sir George Grey gave the grant, still, I think it should not be diverted from its original purpose. There has been a very large revenue received from the school lately, and I want to know where that has all gone.
102. What are the alterations you suggest in the trust? – If the land is maintained as a trust, say the trustees should be Wanganui people, and the trust should be for the benefit of Wanganui. It is part of the township, and the land has been taken from the Borough of Wanganui, and every day the residents are put to inconvenience in having to go round that large block of land: instead of: going through it. I say the trustees have not done their duty.
103. I take it one of your complaints is that the trustees have not been active in getting rid of the land on building-leases? – They have not done all they ought to have done.
104. Have you any complaint to make in reference to the school or the kind of teaching given there? – No.
105. Am I right in saying that the burden of your complaint is-that the trustees: have not acted as practical business men would have done in the way of cutting up the estate and leasing it, and thus getting the best revenue from it? – Yes. I say that every quarter-acre thus cut up would have been occupied. I also say that streets have not been laid out through the estate.
G. – 5. 128 [J. MORGAN.
106. You complain the trustees have not roaded the estate: will you tell me where they are to get the money to read it? – You see we have never had a balance-sheet published. I do not know what they have got, but they ought to have funds enough to road the estate.
107. The accounts are published every year in the proceedings of the Synod, and they are also sent to the Education Department to be laid on the table of the Houses of Parliament? – I have never seen one. To my mind there is a very large revenue from the school and the estate.
108. How much do you think? – It is hard to say, but I should say that a year or two ago, from what I could learn, it has been nearly £15,000 a year from the school fees and the rent.
109. Do you know what the fees are? – No.
110. Do you know what the cost of boarding is? – I have heard it is about £1 10s. to £1 15s. a week for each boarder.
111. Mr. Hogg.] I suppose your complaint is that this land has been practically locked up against settlement and improvement? – Yes. There is a conflict between the Borough Council and the trustees.
112. Do you think its management has been of such a nature as to hinder the progress of Wanganui? – Certainly. There is the land lying idle, and people have been driven miles into the – suburbs to get building-sites.
113. And you say the town has been prevented from growing in its natural directions? – Yes.
114. In regard to the education at this Collegiate School, are you satisfied with that? – I have never had anything to do with it. In the first place, I do not know how they get the name of Collegiate School.
At this stage the Chairman announced that, a cablegram having been received conveying the news of the sudden death of the Right Hon. R. J. Seddon yesterday, the Commission would forthwith adjourn out of respect of the deceased statesman’s memory.
TUESDAY, 12TH JUNE, 1906.
On the Commission assembling at 10 a.m. –
The Chairman said, I have to announce that the Commission will not sit to-day, in consequence of the death of the Right Hon. R. J. Seddon, and out of respect to his memory. A proclamation has been published in the New Zealand Gazette intimating that the offices of the Government service throughout the colony shall be closed to-day, and therefore we feel it is our duty, in deference to the wishes of the authorities, not to sit to-day. Our sitting therefore stands adjourned until 10am to-morrow.
WEDNESDAY, 13TH JUNE, 1906.
JOHN MORGAN further examined.
1. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to add something to your former statement? – As I find the scope of the Commission does not allow me to go into the validity of the grant, I suppose I must confine myself to the administration of the trust. I am only sorry the Commission does not embrace the question of the validity of the grant, because I was in hopes that the Commission would settle the matter for all time. My complaint now is that the grant has not been used for the purpose for which it was set apart, and that the administration of the grant has been something most miserable. In fact, I do not know how I can find words to express myself on this subject. I would say it has been a disgrace to all those concerned in it. We have been told that there have been drains put through the estate, but I do not know where they are. I have never seen them. I think I could point to one put in very many years ago, but the estate is under water still in many places. I would wish to impress on the Commission the state in which that land is at present.
2. We have been all over it, and we have seen the general: condition of the property? – Then you have seen the water lying on it, I think.
3. The whole of that estate, including Mosstown, wants a complete system of drainage: I suppose you will admit that? – Yes. Drains that have been made at Mosstown and other places have assisted to drain the estate to a certain extent.
4. The Mosstown drains have concentrated the water in that particular part, and it seems to us that the present system for carrying off the water is quite inadequate: do you not think the whole question of drainage requires to be gone into by a competent engineer, and a complete drainage system devised? – Yes.
5. Is there any other point? – I only wish to add that I should like that grant to be carried out in its original intention – namely, as a township.
6. We understand you want to see the estate all roaded, drained, and covered with buildings? – I do. I want to see it a part and parcel of Wanganui. The question has been raised as to where the trustees are to get the money for doing all these things. I should say that the revenue from that block for all these years ought to have produced some money towards it, at any rate. Even at the present time I should think the revenue from the land and school should be fully from £12,000 to £15,000 a year. For the last few years it has been up to £15,000 a year. Two years ago there were 215 scholars there, and the greater number of them board, and I know of my own knowledge that most of them pay £75, if not £100, a year.
7. You mean, including rent and fees, the receipts amounted to £15,000 a year? – Yes. The trustees are living rent-free, and I see also that an effort is being made to exempt them from the borough rates. Now, I will show you how the trustees mismanage the estate. I say that, instead of £1,200 a year, the estate ought to produce £5,000.
J. MORGAN.] 129 G. – 5.
8. We understand that, in your opinion, if that estate had been properly managed by practical business men, it would be bringing in a better income to-day? – I will say from £4,000 to £5,000. I will tell you how I arrive at that. We will allow ten miles for streets in that block; we will allow the domain – which belongs to the public I maintain – of 10 acres, and the market reserve of 5 acres, making a total reservation of 95 acres. If we cut up the rest we have 628 quarter-acre sections, and if these were leased on terms similar to the hospital leases, they would bring in at least £5 per section. That will produce 5,000-and-odd pounds. But what have they done? They have only built houses on the land where the borough has made roads for them, and the swampy portions remain as they were before. I would say that the whole estate has been managed on a dog-in-the-manger system. Every house built in and round Wanganui helps to increase the value of their property, and yet they have not done a single thing to improve this property. I would like, with the consent of the Commission, to read this correspondence that took place in 1903 and 1904 between myself and the Right Hon. the Premier in reference to the subject of this endowment and its management:
Durietown, Wanganui, 7th August, 1903.
SIR, –
In the Wanganui Chronicle of the 5th instant, I observe that, in answering questions in the House of Representatives on the 4th, you stated “that a Royal Commission should be set up to consider the position of Native-school reserves.’’ May I ask if the said Royal Commission would be authorised to inquire into the reserve in the Borough of Wanganui, called the Industrial School Grant? I am not aware whether your attention has ever been called to this matter or not. In bringing it to your notice I feel bound to say that it is high time some inquiry should be made. It is over fifty years since the grant was made for a special purpose, yet at the present time some of the land is in a worse state than it was fifty years ago, when in its primeval state. Should it be that you would like to know more about this grant, I shall be pleased to furnish you with all the information I can, and would endeavour to answer any question relative to the same that it is in my power to answer. This grant is worth at present at least £80,000 yet the object for which it was given by Sir George Grey is not, or ever has been, carried out. I think it probable that our member, Mr. A. D. Willis, may be able to give you some information on the subject, but I do not think that he is well up in the matter, Feeling it to be my duty to bring this matter to your notice, and awaiting your reply.
I am, &c.,
JOHN MORGAN
The Right Hon. the Premier.
Prime Minister’s Office, Wellington, 21st August, 1903.
SIR, –
I duly received your letter of the 7th instant, and I take this opportunity of thanking you for the information you have furnished re the reserve in question. I do not think it will be necessary to trouble you for further particulars, as I find the records in the Lands Department are ample; however, if necessary, I will communicate with you again. There can be no doubt but that the time has come when the history and use of each and every one of these reserves was gone into. Again thanking you.
Yours, &c.,
R. J. SEDDON
John Morgan, Esq., Wanganui.
Durietown, 12th July, 1904.
SIR, –
I had the honour of writing to you in August last in reference to the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the position of ‘‘Native-school reserves.’’ I also asked if such Royal Commission would be authorised to inquire into the reserve in the Borough of Wanganui, called the “Industrial School Grant.” To the above-mentioned letter I received from you a prompt reply, from which I gathered that you were of the opinion ‘‘that the time had come when the history and use of each and every one of these reserves was gone into,’’ tendering me thanks, &c.
I have been anxiously awaiting the setting-up of such a Commission, but am sorry to say have not yet heard of such an appointment. My object in now writing is to impress upon your mind the necessity for such a Commission. For some time I have been devoting much time and thought to the ‘‘Wanganui Industrial School Grant”; have also written a brief history of it, which has been published in the Wanganui Herald. I believe that I can say that all, or nearly all, I have written can be found in the records of the Deeds Department. My object has been to bring it in concrete form before the Wanganui public, as there are now but few living that know anything about the grant in question. I have known it from the beginning, which is now fifty-two years. I beg that you will excuse me for bringing to your notice the position of this grant from my point of view – I may say I am not a lawyer, and my opinion is that of a layman. I may add that I should have preferred an interview with you on this subject, as I could have said more in half an hour than I can write on many sheets of paper. Circumstanced as I am I feel that this is the only course open to me.
I trust that you will be good enough to permit me to preface my opinion by saying that the land in question was purchased from the Natives by Colonel Wakefield for the New Zealand Land Company in 1840-41 till 1850, when, I think, the Imperial Government took over the affairs of the New Zealand Company – viz., their assets and liabilities. I take it the assets of the company were the unsold sections of land, and these sections, and the sections alone, belonged to the Government. The streets, Domain, Market, and other reserves belonged to the public. Having prefaced my opinion as above, I take leave to proceed. 1. I am of opinion that the act of Sir George Grey, the then Governor, in making the grant in question, taking all the circumstances of the case into consideration, was ultra vires, inasmuch as a large portion of the land contained in the grant did not belong to the Crown – viz., the streets, Domain, Market, and other reserves belonged to the public. Again, at what date did Sir G. Grey cease to be Governor of a Crown colony? The deed of grant bears date the 13th October, 1852. I admit the first grant
17 – G. 5.
